Non confrontational question for any practicing Mormon (former mormons, please state so when posting)

[dianaiad]

But it’s not being done like that. It’s being done like “I can do it, so who care’s what you think”. Really you LDS, need to be more empathetic to those around you or you’ll forever be saying “Poor us. We are so persecuted and don’t know why”.

But that’s where you are entirely wrong. It is being done EXACTLY ‘like that.’ How is it our fault that you believe that proxy work does, and is, something it does, and is, NOT?

If WE, who are actually doing this, insist that it is entirely the free choice of the person for whom it is done as to whether it means anything or not, how is that 'I can do it so who cares what you think?" In fact, it’s ALL about what ‘you think,’ if the person doing the thinking is the person for whom the work is being done. We CANT do anything to him, or for him, without his direct and willing acceptance.

I hope that you understand that we don’t think that anybody has a say BUT the person for whom the work is being done.

…and I guess that’s the ironic thing about all this. Your accusation is that we are making decisions for others without their permission, and simply doing this because we can and we don’t care what others think about it. In reality, it is YOU who are making the decisions for others, not us. At least we put our faith where we claim our beliefs are; that there really is an afterlife, that people really DO continue on, and that they CAN make their own decisions.

Your objection tells me that you don’t think so…or if you do believe in an afterlife, you somehow believe that those who have passed away have somehow become puppets for whom you hold the strings, and for whom you can make all the decisions. The really intriguing aspect of this is…that you think that what we do is an insult to YOU. How can it be? We aren’t baptising you, after all. In fact, we aren’t doing anything at all to you. As to our ancestors, we are not insulting them, either. In fact, quite the opposite. We are doing them the courtesy of believing that they can still think for, and make decisions for, themselves.

Would that you gave them the same courtesy.

 

[AMDGtoo]

Your objection tells me that you don’t think so…or if you do believe in an afterlife, you somehow believe that those who have passed away have somehow become puppets for whom you hold the strings, and for whom you can make all the decisions.

No. We believe that our dear departed have no need of earthly Baptisms again–it’s over “they have run the race” as Paul would say–there is no need of sealing after death (because there is no marriage in heaven, and Christ has said it very plainly). Our dear departed know the embrace of Jesus and the Communion of Saints after their lives on earth. They are “resting in peace with God”. (The Bible itself notes that life as known on this earth comes to an end with our death.) We only request that the memories of our beloved be respected. Let them rest in peace and not sully their memories with things that they would never have believed or done in this life. Consider that our loved ones have rejected Mormonism in life and stop seeing their deaths as another opportunity to try to control that to a positive outcome for you folks. Really, just accept it and stop trying to make them something that they weren’t.

 

[Anna_Scott]

How do you think it matters? Do you think you will turn in your grave? Do you think you will cry in anguish in the spirit world?

It will matter, because the living, who come across by-proxy baptismal records, would find my name connected to Joseph Smith’s apostasy. Reputations are important in both life and death.

 

[zerinus]

It will matter, because the living, who come across by-proxy baptismal records, would find my name connected to Joseph Smith’s apostasy. Reputations are important in both life and death.

Okay, what if one of your future descendants ten times removed had a dream in which you appeared to him and told him that you had repented, and and would like to have this ordinance performed on your behalf. What should he do? Should he ignore that, and act according to your will and testament which you left in this life not to be baptized; or should he act according to what you told him in his dream?

 

[dianaiad]

No. We believe that our dear departed have no need of earthly Baptisms again–it’s over “they have run the race” as Paul would say–there is no need of sealing after death (because there is no marriage in heaven, and Christ has said it very plainly).

So…because YOU believe this, THEY have no right to make their own decisions?

Our dear departed know the embrace of Jesus and the Communion of Saints after their lives on earth. They are “resting in peace with God”. (The Bible itself notes that life as known on this earth comes to an end with our death.) We only request that the memories of our beloved be respected. Let them rest in peace and not sully their memories with things that they would never have believed or done in this life.

Is that, then, all they are,is ‘memories?’ Do you not believe that they are more than that? That is what atheists believe, y’know, that your loved ones are only ‘memories’ and nothing else.

We believe that they are more than their memories. They are real people with the ability to think, reason and make decisions. If we are wrong about this, and they ARE nothing but memories, then nothing we do can affect that anyway.

Put it this way: suppose that your brother moved to, oh…New Zealand, and you knew that he would never move back to where you are, and that you would never go there. Suppose as well that for some reason all the communication systems of the world went down, so that neither one of you would ever hear from one another again.

Until fairly recently, such was precisely what would happen to families who moved that far apart; letters were very few and very far between, and very often were non-existent. They had to take on faith that those who were separate from them still continued, still lived, and loved, and succeeded–or not–

Would you still think you had the right to tell a missionary from another church who is also headed to New Zealand that he had NO RIGHT to talk to your brother, because he was gone and that his ‘memory’ should be respected, and he should be allowed to 'rest in peace?"

Do you REALLY think that these people are RESTING? Twiddling their thumbs? Doing nothing but waiting to see what YOU think they should do or think?

Consider that our loved ones have rejected Mormonism in life and stop seeing their deaths as another opportunity to try to control that to a positive outcome for you folks. Really, just accept it and stop trying to make them something that they weren’t.

While a few have done so, the VAST majority of those for whom we do this work have never even heard of Mormonism, much less rejected it. You have a very much over inflated view of our influence on the planet if you think that every dead person has rejected Mormonism. Of those who really HAVE rejected Mormonism, one last refusal to say ‘yes’ isn’t going to destroy their eternities.

And you, sir, need to think about this bit about whether those who have passed on being nothing more than memories that must be respected. Even if that is true, it raises a question of who has the right to make decisions about those memories…if a grandson or great granddaughter says ‘let’s do the proxy work for G-Grandpa,’ how is it your right, if you are not a closer relation, to tell the grandchild not to do this?

I cannot, of course, stop you from being offended. You may be offended by anything you want to be offended by: the color of the sky: the fact that your neighbor planted pink tulips next to your orange petunias; the fact that the Stewart Tartan is brown and red, and the Campbell tartan is a much prettier blue and green; the fact that your back fence neighbor’s patio set clashes with your wisteria…lots of things out there that you can be offended by, actually. However, your sense of offense does not mean that I have to agree that your sense of offense is valid, or that I must change anything I do in order to accommodate you–especially since nothing about what we do as proxy work for OTHER PEOPLE has anything at all to do with YOU.

You don’t HAVE to protect them or be offended in their behalves, y’know. Here’s the point you seem to be determined to miss: they are quite able to make up their own minds, and it’s what THEY want that counts, not what you want.

I think that’s blunt enough.

 

[dianaiad]

It will matter, because the living, who come across by-proxy baptismal records, would find my name connected to Joseph Smith’s apostasy. Reputations are important in both life and death.

Anna, you really think that people are incredibly stupid, don’t you? Anyone who 'comes across" proxy baptismal records will, if they can read (and if they can’t the situation won’t be a problem anyway), see instantly that the death date came AT LEAST a year before any proxy baptism date. From this anybody with half a brain will be able to see that the decedent was not ‘connected to Joseph Smith’s apostasy’ in life. Ergo, reputation intact.

In all the examples given here of priests, nuns and saints who may have had their proxy work done, where is there a single person who figured that THEIR reputations have been 'sullied?" Is the priest less a priest, a nun less a nun, a Saint less a Saint? Does anybody blame THEM?

No, actually, they don’t. Therefore your worry about reputation is moot. Nobody’s reputation is harmed here, especially when you consider that we, who are actually doing this stuff, do not believe that anything is valid unless the person for whom the work is done actually WANTS it to be valid.

NOBODY is being kidnapped or forced to do anything, y’know, in spite of what the anti-s claim—and it always astounds me that the antis think that our proxy work is so much more effective than WE think it is.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Dianaiad,

Where, in these ceremonies, is the deceased given a choice?

http://www.lds-mormon.com/veilworker/rituals.shtml

“Mormon Temple &quotInitiatory” Ceremonies

BAPTISM FOR THE DEAD

Baptism for the dead is usually performed by Mormon youths between the ages of twelve and eighteen. Dressed in white clothes, the youth enters the baptismal font and stands upright. Using his (her) left hand, he (she) grasps his (her) own right wrist, and uses the fingers of the right hand to hold the nose shut while being immersed. The person performing the baptism stands at the left side of the youth and grasps the youth’s right hand with his left hand. He then raises his right arm to an angle of ninety degrees ands repeats the baptismal prayer. Following the prayer, he places his right hand on the youth’s back and supports him (her) during immersion, raising the youth quickly out of the water to an upright position again, when the ceremony is repeated several more times on behalf of other deceased persons.

Brother _______, having been commissioned of Jesus Christ, I baptize you, for and in behalf of _______, who is dead, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.
**
CONFIRMATION OF THE DEAD**

Following baptism, the deceased must be confirmed a member of the Mormon Church. This ceremony does not have to be performed by the same proxy by the baptism, and usually isn’t. The proxy sits in a chair, and two Mormon Elders place their hands on the proxy’s head, and repeat the following, for each deceased person.

Brother _______, in the name of Jesus Christ, we lay our hands upon your head, for and in behalf of _______, who is dead, and confirm you a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and say unto you, Receive the Holy Ghost. Amen.
**
RECONFIRMATION**

This ceremony restores temple blessings lost through excommunication or by one’s name having been removed from the records of the Church.

Brother _______, in the name of Jesus Christ, we lay our hands upon your head [for and in behalf of _______, who is dead], and confirm you a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and say unto you, Receive the Holy Ghost, and confirm upon you all your former Church and Temple blessings. Amen.

ORDINATION OF THE DEAD

This ceremony gives the Priesthood to the deceased.

Brother _______, having authority, we lay our hands upon your head, and confer upon you the Melchizedek Priesthood and ordain you an Elder in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for and in behalf of _______, who is dead, and seal upon you every grace, gift and authority appertaining to this office in the Holy Melchizedek Priesthood, for and in his behalf, in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen."

LDS Members: if these ceremonies are misrepresented, please provide correction and proof that such correction is necessary.

Anna, you really think that people are incredibly stupid, don’t you? Anyone who 'comes across" proxy baptismal records will, if they can read (and if they can’t the situation won’t be a problem anyway), see instantly that the death date came AT LEAST a year before any proxy baptism date. From this anybody with half a brain will be able to see that the decedent was not ‘connected to Joseph Smith’s apostasy’ in life. Ergo, reputation intact.

In all the examples given here of priests, nuns and saints who may have had their proxy work done, where is there a single person who figured that THEIR reputations have been 'sullied?" Is the priest less a priest, a nun less a nun, a Saint less a Saint? Does anybody blame THEM?

No, actually, they don’t. Therefore your worry about reputation is moot. Nobody’s reputation is harmed here, especially when you consider that we, who are actually doing this stuff, do not believe that anything is valid unless the person for whom the work is done actually WANTS it to be valid.

NOBODY is being kidnapped or forced to do anything, y’know, in spite of what the anti-s claim—and it always astounds me that the antis think that our proxy work is so much more effective than WE think it is.

Dianaiad,

You still haven’t answered the question.

Where, in these ceremonies, is the deceased given a choice?

 

[Anna_Scott]

Okay, what if one of your future descendants ten times removed had a dream in which you appeared to him and told him that you had repented, and and would like to have this ordinance performed on your behalf. What should he do? Should he ignore that, and act according to your will and testament which you left in this life not to be baptized; or should he act according to what you told him in his dream?

Zerinus,

I appreciate the fact that you are asking that all possible scenarios be considered; and you have provided the most insightful possibility of all LDS responses I have read on the forums. I respect that, Zerinus. It is good to see.

I have faith in Christ and in His salvation. I have already been baptized in the name of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

Considering the determination of the Mormon Church to continue baptisms by proxy, despite agreements with the Jewish people, etc.; I am quite certain, that if such a dream occurred, whether I actually appeared in the dream or not; my Last Will & Testament would not stop a by-proxy baptism.

Ultimately, for all of us, it comes down to faith.

Anna

 

[AMDGtoo]

So…because YOU believe this, THEY have no right to make their own decisions?

Dianaid honey, Our dear departed, have already made the decision. They should be left to rest in peace. They don’t deserve grave robbers or vandals disturbing their peace, and they certainly don’t deserve those that have “bought into” Joseph Smith’s heresy baptizing and sealing them into something that they would never ever agree to (and the mere fact that they hadn’t when decisions could be made should tell you something)

And it just isn’t fair for me to have to forget about sharing genealogy work with my convert daughter (because she might mistakenly think that our dead very Catholic relatives are “fair game”. And it isn’t fair for that “tiny wedge” to be driven between me and my daughter by expecting me to be the one to guard the Catholic memories of our Catholic departed relatives who now enjoy Christ’s embrace and the Communion of Saints. And though you say that those coming upon those proxy baptisms will know, I’m here to tell you that sometimes it has to be explained (and I don’t think that extra explanation is fair either.)

About now, I’m beginning to know how the Jews who actually won a lawsuit against you Mormons for you baptizing Holocaust victims: If the person wasn’t Mormon in this life, leave our dead alone!!!

 

[StrawberryJam]

Dianaiad,

You still haven’t answered the question.

Where, in these ceremonies, is the deceased given a choice?

This sounds contradictory to a free will position.

If God exists, certainly he knows the position a person took until their dying breath.

Is this rite only preformed to inusre God will know or remember what he, um… already knows?

 

[zerinus]

Zerinus,

I appreciate the fact that you are asking that all possible scenarios be considered; and you have provided the most insightful possibility of all LDS responses I have read on the forums. I respect that, Zerinus. It is good to see.

I have faith in Christ and in His salvation. I have already been baptized in the name of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

Considering the determination of the Mormon Church to continue baptisms by proxy, despite agreements with the Jewish people, etc.; I am quite certain, that if such a dream occurred, whether I actually appeared in the dream or not; my Last Will & Testament would not stop a by-proxy baptism.

Ultimately, for all of us, it comes down to faith.

Anna

Which doesn’t quite answer my question. The reason why excommunicated Church members require permission from the First Presidency for proxy baptisms to be performed on their behalf is that the First Presidency have the priesthood keys to determine by revelation what the spiritual condition of that person is in the spirit world, and decide whether the person can be benefited by this ordinance or not. If you appeared to one of your descendants in a dream, and he put in an application, and the First Presidency determined by revelation that he was right and you were ready in the spirit world to receive this ordinance, then they might authorize it. You see, the question you are asking is an impossible one to answer. It is like asking: “How can I guarantee that in twenty years’ time I will not be given a blood transfusion?” The answer to that is that it is impossible to give such a guarantee, because in twenty years’ time you might change your mind and decide that you want to have blood transfusion.

The only way I can think of that you can really guarantee that authorization will never be given for your baptism by proxy is to commit the unpardonable sin. As you probably know, there is a kind of sin which is unpardonable. It has no forgiveness, either in this life or in the next. If you commit that sin, then your damnation is assured. There is no turning back. You have burned your bridges with God and with His Church, and there is no way of coming back. Now don’t ask me how you can commit that sin! I am really not in a position to advise you on that. It could be that you already have committed that sin, I wouldn’t know. If you have, then you have nothing to worry about—I mean as far as proxy baptism is concerned! But if you haven’t, and you really want to ensure that authorization will never be given for your proxy baptism after you die, that is the way to go.

 

[dianaiad]

Dianaiad,

You still haven’t answered the question.

Where, in these ceremonies, is the deceased given a choice?

When he or she is offered the chance to confirm or reject them.

If your aunt has cleaned her best bedroom, purchased new bed linen and put flowers in the room, all in the hopes that you would stay with her for a week, and you choose to go to a motel instead, then all the work your aunt did on your behalf is useless to you, isn’t it?

It doesn’t matter how much work she went to; if you didn’t stay with her, you didn’t stay with her. The bedding is still new, the flowers are still there, but they aren’t yours, are they? It is YOUR CHOICE always.

Oh, and Anna?

If WE, who are doing all this, claim that it is their choice always, who are you to insist that it is not? You have told us that you want nothing to do with Mormonism (even though you seem to spend a fair amount of time having a LOT to do with Mormonism) and don’t believe that anything we believe in or practice is ‘true.’

Why are you insisting that proxy work is more effective than WE think it is? Isn’t that a little…strange?

 

[dianaiad]

Dianaid honey, Our dear departed, have already made the decision.

Not all of them. As I mentioned, the vast majority of them have never heard of us. In fact, the vast majority of humans ever born have never heard of Jesus Christ. How could they have made any sort of decision about this matter?

They should be left to rest in peace. They don’t deserve grave robbers or vandals disturbing their peace, and they certainly don’t deserve those that have “bought into” Joseph Smith’s heresy baptizing and sealing them into something that they would never ever agree to (and the mere fact that they hadn’t when decisions could be made should tell you something);

Most of them did not, because they had no clue that there WAS a choice.

And it just isn’t fair for me to have to forget about sharing genealogy work with my convert daughter (because she might mistakenly think that our dead very Catholic relatives are “fair game”. And it isn’t fair for that “tiny wedge” to be driven between me and my daughter by expecting me to be the one to guard the Catholic memories of our Catholic departed relatives who now enjoy Christ’s embrace and the Communion of Saints. And though you say that those coming upon those proxy baptisms will know, I’m here to tell you that sometimes it has to be explained (and I don’t think that extra explanation is fair either.)

About now, I’m beginning to know how the Jews who actually won a lawsuit against you Mormons for you baptizing Holocaust victims: If the person wasn’t Mormon in this life, leave our dead alone!!!

I can see that, though I can understand why non-Mormons are upset by this. I really can…and I can also see that they are upset because they don’t understand, or even WANT to understand, what it’s really about…

and very few of them, even as they are screaming at us for being insensitive about THEIR beliefs and culture, feel that they should learn even enough about OURS to find out what it really is we are doing. They are too titillated by the National Inquirer version of the thing.

As to the explanation…I don’t get it at all. People who use our genealogical records (for FREE, mind you) and know enough to understand all the other information that is presented there WILL know what a baptism date a year after the death date means. The very fact that they ARE using LDS resources, and genealogical resources, means that they understand what this means…and if they don’t, then a quick tutorial (along with the tutorials they get about other things…like how to find death/baptism/marriage dates and to fill out family trees) would be a good thing.

I understand. I really do. Do you understand where we are in this? We aren’t out to insult or offend anyone. We honestly DO NOT UNDERSTAND why this double standard exists; first, we are told that there IS an afterlife,{ and Catholics understand very well that people can think and reason in that afterlife, else why pray for the dead, or ask them to intercede for them?} and then they behave as if those who pass on have no right to make any decisions for themselves.

We not only believe in that afterlife, as y’all claim to believe in it, we do put our faith in it. That is, we behave as if there really IS such a place, such a state of being, and assume (I don’t think it’s too much of a stretch here) that if those in the afterlife can pray for us, or be affected BY prayer (by the way, speaking of Catholics praying for the dead…I’ve never heard that a Catholic thinks someone in purgatory has the right to refuse prayers said in their behalf…) also have the ability to say ‘yes’ or ‘no’ to whatever proxy work we do on their behalf.

It is, in other words, their business. Only theirs. I would no sooner think of dictating to my grandfather how he should vote or what/how/where he should worship than fly–not in his mortal lifetime, and not NOW. I do not believe that he suddenly became incapable of thought, in other words.

I guess it’s a difference in viewpoint that can’t be reconciled. The difference between the two is this, from what I can tell: one side is making the choices for the dead, whether the dead want those choices made for them or not…and it ain’t us.

 

[dianaiad]

This sounds contradictory to a free will position.

If God exists, certainly he knows the position a person took until their dying breath.

Is this rite only preformed to inusre God will know or remember what he, um… already knows?

You are straying into Calvinist thought. We are not Calvinist. We are strictly for the free will thing. …and we believe that God has ensured that we all HAVE that free ability to make choices.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Which doesn’t quite answer my question.

My answer is, “ignore the dream.”
zerinus;6327588:

The reason why excommunicated Church members require permission from the First Presidency for proxy baptisms to be performed on their behalf is that the First Presidency have the priesthood keys to determine by revelation what the spiritual condition of that person is in the spirit world, and decide whether the person can be benefited by this ordinance or not. If you appeared to one of your descendants in a dream, and he put in an application, and the First Presidency determined by revelation that he was right and you were ready in the spirit world to receive this ordinance, then they might authorize it.

You see, the question you are asking is an impossible one to answer. It is like asking: “How can I guarantee that in twenty years’ time I will not be given a blood transfusion?” The answer to that is that it is impossible to give such a guarantee, because in twenty years’ time you might change your mind and decide that you want to have blood transfusion.

The only way I can think of that you can really guarantee that authorization will never be given for your baptism by proxy is to commit the unpardonable sin. As you probably know, there is a kind of sin which is unpardonable. It has no forgiveness, either in this life or in the next. If you commit that sin, then your damnation is assured. There is no turning back. You have burned your bridges with God and with His Church, and there is no way of coming back. Now don’t ask me how you can commit that sin! I am really not in a position to advise you on that. It could be that you already have committed that sin, I wouldn’t know.

If you have, then you have nothing to worry about—I mean as far as proxy baptism is concerned! But if you haven’t, and you really want to ensure that authorization will never be given for your proxy baptism after you die, that is the way to go.

Are you suggesting I should sin?

I am aware of the unpardonable sins, according to Mormonism.

http://scriptures.lds.org/gs/u/8
“The sin of denying the Holy Ghost, a sin that cannot be forgiven.
Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men, Matt. 12: 31-32 (Mark 3: 29; Luke 12: 10). It is impossible for those who were made partakers of the Holy Ghost to renew them again unto repentance, Heb. 6: 4-6. If we sin wilfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, Heb. 10: 26. If ye deny the Holy Ghost and know that ye deny it, this is a sin which is unpardonable, Alma 39: 5-6 (Jacob 7: 19). They have no forgiveness, having denied the Only Begotten Son, having crucified him unto themselves, D&C 76: 30-35. The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven, which is shedding innocent blood after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, D&C 132: 26-27.”

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/39/5-6#5
Alma 39:
“5 Know ye not, my son, that these things are an abomination in the sight of the Lord; yea, most aabominable above all sins save it be the shedding of innocent bblood or denying the Holy Ghost?
6 For behold, if ye adeny the Holy Ghost when it once has had place in you, and ye know that ye deny it, behold, this is a sin which is bunpardonable; yea, and whosoever murdereth against the light and knowledge of God, it is not easy for him to obtain cforgiveness; yea, I say unto you, my son, that it is not easy for him to obtain a forgiveness.”

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/76/30-35#30
**THE DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS, SECTION 76 **
“30 And we saw a vision of the asufferings of those with whom he made war and overcame, for thus came the voice of the Lord unto us:
31 Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and asuffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power—
32 They are they who are the asons of bperdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;
33 For they are avessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;
34 Concerning whom I have said there is ano bforgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—
35 Having adenied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having bcrucified him unto themselves and put him to an open cshame.”

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132/26-27#26
**THE DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS, SECTION 132 **
“26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the aHoly Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they bcommit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be cdelivered unto the buffetings of dSatan unto the day of eredemption, saith the Lord God.
27 The ablasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall bnot be cforgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit dmurder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be edamned, saith the Lord.”

 

[Anna_Scott]

When he or she is offered the chance to confirm or reject them.

If your aunt has cleaned her best bedroom, purchased new bed linen and put flowers in the room, all in the hopes that you would stay with her for a week, and you choose to go to a motel instead, then all the work your aunt did on your behalf is useless to you, isn’t it?

It doesn’t matter how much work she went to; if you didn’t stay with her, you didn’t stay with her. The bedding is still new, the flowers are still there, but they aren’t yours, are they? It is YOUR CHOICE always.

Oh, and Anna?

If WE, who are doing all this, claim that it is their choice always, who are you to insist that it is not? You have told us that you want nothing to do with Mormonism (even though you seem to spend a fair amount of time having a LOT to do with Mormonism) and don’t believe that anything we believe in or practice is ‘true.’

Why are you insisting that proxy work is more effective than WE think it is? Isn’t that a little…strange?

Dianaiad,

You still didn’t answer the question. We all have the right to refuse or ignore any question or post. So, I will respect your choice, and let it go.

Anna

 

[dianaiad]

My answer is, “ignore the dream.”

Are you suggesting I should sin?

I am aware of the unpardonable sins.

<snip LDS scriptural references, for space>

How about these references, instead, since I know you don’t believe in the Book of Mormon or Doctrine and Covenants?

Mark 3:28-30: “Truly I tell you, people will be forgiven all their sins and all the blasphemies they utter. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, but is guilty of an eternal sin. He said this because they [the Pharisees] were saying, ‘He has an evil spirit’.”

Matthew 12:30-32: “Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. And so I tell you, people will be forgiven every sin and blasphemy. But the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.”

Luke 12:8-10: “I tell you, whoever acknowledges me before men, the Son of Man will also acknowledge him before the angels of God. But he who disowns me before men will be disowned before the angels of God. And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.”

Hebrews 6:4-8: “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned. Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case — the things that have to do with salvation.”

Hebrews 10:26-29: “For we—sinning wilfully without compulsion after receiving the full knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and fiery zeal about to consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think those deserve to be punished who have trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has considered as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who have insulted the Spirit of grace?”

This idea of an unpardonable sin is not exactly unique to LDS thought, Anna.

 

[dianaiad]

My answer is, “ignore the dream.”

Are you suggesting I should sin?

I am aware of the unpardonable sins.

<snip LDS scriptural references, for space>

How about these references, instead, since I know you don’t believe in the Book of Mormon or Doctrine and Covenants?

Mark 3:28-30: “Truly I tell you, people will be forgiven all their sins and all the blasphemies they utter. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, but is guilty of an eternal sin. He said this because they [the Pharisees] were saying, ‘He has an evil spirit’.”

Matthew 12:30-32: “Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. And so I tell you, people will be forgiven every sin and blasphemy. But the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.”

Luke 12:8-10: “I tell you, whoever acknowledges me before men, the Son of Man will also acknowledge him before the angels of God. But he who disowns me before men will be disowned before the angels of God. And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.”

Hebrews 6:4-8: “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned. Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case — the things that have to do with salvation.”

Hebrews 10:26-29: “For we—sinning wilfully without compulsion after receiving the full knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and fiery zeal about to consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think those deserve to be punished who have trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has considered as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who have insulted the Spirit of grace?”

This idea of an unpardonable sin is not exactly unique to LDS thought, Anna.

 

[Anna_Scott]

My answer is, “ignore the dream.”

Are you suggesting I should sin?

“Truly I tell you, people will be forgiven all their sins and all the blasphemies they utter. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, but is guilty of an eternal sin. He said this because they [the Pharisees] were saying, ‘He has an evil spirit’.”

Matthew 12:30-32: “Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. And so I tell you, people will be forgiven every sin and blasphemy. But the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.”

Luke 12:8-10: “I tell you, whoever acknowledges me before men, the Son of Man will also acknowledge him before the angels of God. But he who disowns me before men will be disowned before the angels of God. And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.”

Hebrews 6:4-8: “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned. Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case — the things that have to do with salvation.”

Hebrews 10:26-29: “For we—sinning wilfully without compulsion after receiving the full knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and fiery zeal about to consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think those deserve to be punished who have trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has considered as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who have insulted the Spirit of grace?”

This idea of an unpardonable sin is not exactly unique to LDS thought, Anna.

I am aware of the Scriptures in the Bible.

Anna

[/QUOTE]

 

[dianaiad]

Dianaiad,

You still didn’t answer the question. We all have the right to refuse or ignore any question or post. So, I will respect your choice, and let it go.

Anna

I DID answer the question, Anna. I answered very plainly. You simply do not want to accept that answer, having decided for yourself (in the face of LDS thought and people telling you what all this really means and does) what we REALLY mean when we do this.

The answer is, AGAIN, that we are VERY aware, teach and believe from the bottom of our hearts that this proxy work is effective ONLY IF THE PERSON FOR WHOM IT IS DONE ACCEPTS IT, on their side. We could do anything we want to…it doesn’t matter because the only things that count are the things that the dead WANT to count. For us to believe anything else runs so counter to everything our faith is based on as to be an impossibility.

I do understand how non-Mormons COULD assume that proxy work is coercive, and that somehow if we baptise someone by proxy that this ‘someone’ is forced to be LDS…because THEY have just such coercive practices in their own religions. However, we don’t. The idea of free agency is too central to our beliefs for it to be any other way.