Non-consecrated bread for holy communion?

[osmond]

At a Byzantine Catholic Church I visit, the priest prepares the gifts by placing wine in a chalice and by cutting up bread into small cubes and placing them on the diskos covered by the asterisk and then a veil. He also fills a lidded gold cup with cubes of the same unconsecrated bread and places it aside.

The bread in the diskos along with the wine in the chalice is transformed into the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ (the bread in the gold cup is most certainly not) and they are ultimately co-mingled. While he is distributing Holy Communion if he finds that he is running short of the “Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ under the appearance of cubed bread” he will transfer some of the unconsecrated bread from the gold cup to the chalice bearing the Precious Blood and then distribute Holy Communion under one consecrated species.

Is this kosher?

 

[quiet52]

All the bread and wine on the altar are transformed, no matter which vessels they are in or how many vessels there are. The priest invokes the Holy Spirit to transform all the bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus.

 

[Aramis]

All the bread and wine on the altar are transformed, no matter which vessels they are in or how many vessels there are. The priest invokes the Holy Spirit to transform all the bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus.

Actually, no.

The antidorion, even if upon the holy table (due to lack of a proskomedia table) is not considered to be consecrated. (This is only likely in mission parishes or altars of other rites.)

If the precious body runs out, then communion is continued under the species of the precious blood alone. I’ve seen that. Once.

Also note that it is generally true in the Byzantine tradition, and more strongly so in the Orthodox side, that the reserved presanctified gifts are not removed for distribution during a divine liturgy where a consecration has occurred. (The liturgy of the presanctified gifts is oft considered to be a divine liturgy despite not consecrating the gifts.)

 

[Phemie]

Actually, no.

The antidorion, even if upon the holy table (due to lack of a proskomedia table) is not considered to be consecrated. (This is only likely in mission parishes or altars of other rites.)

If the precious body runs out, then communion is continued under the species of the precious blood alone. I’ve seen that. Once.

But was unconsecrated bread used such as described by the OP? Intinction with unconsecrated hosts is forbidden in the Latin Rite but before Redemptionis Sacramentum was published one of our priests did just that when we ran out of consecrated hosts.

Also note that it is generally true in the Byzantine tradition, and more strongly so in the Orthodox side, that the reserved presanctified gifts are not removed for distribution during a divine liturgy where a consecration has occurred. (The liturgy of the presanctified gifts is oft considered to be a divine liturgy despite not consecrating the gifts.)

Ideally, they would not be removed for distribution in the Latin Rite either unless we ran out but in practice it happens a lot.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

At a Byzantine Catholic Church I visit, the priest prepares the gifts by placing wine in a chalice and by cutting up bread into small cubes and placing them on the diskos covered by the asterisk and then a veil. He also fills a lidded gold cup with cubes of the same unconsecrated bread and places it aside.

The bread in the diskos along with the wine in the chalice is transformed into the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ (the bread in the gold cup is most certainly not) and they are ultimately co-mingled. While he is distributing Holy Communion if he finds that he is running short of the “Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ under the appearance of cubed bread” he will transfer some of the unconsecrated bread from the gold cup to the chalice bearing the Precious Blood and then distribute Holy Communion under one consecrated species.

Is this kosher?

Yes, for the Byzantine Rite.

 

[osmond]

All the bread and wine on the altar are transformed, no matter which vessels they are in or how many vessels there are. The priest invokes the Holy Spirit to transform all the bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus.

No, that’s not true. Please, please do not derail this thread.

Does anyone happen to have a copy of a document where the practice of adding un-consecrated bread to the Precious Blood is allowed (or disallowed?) Thank you so very much.

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Does anyone happen to have a copy of a document where the practice of adding un-consecrated bread to the Precious Blood is allowed (or disallowed?) Thank you so very much.

I’ve never seen this done in the Melkite Church (one of the Byzantine Rite Churches). However, I suspect that it would be permitted since, in point of fact, when communion is taken to the sick the consecrated bread is soaked in unconsecrated wine to make it softer. I know of no documentation that would permit or prohibit such a practice.

Deacon Ed

 

[bpbasilphx]

He also fills a lidded gold cup with cubes of the same unconsecrated bread and places it aside.

**This gold cup sounds like a pyx to me.

The antidoron (which is not consecrated) would be placed in a large bowl or tray.**

 

[malphono]

He also fills a lidded gold cup with cubes of the same unconsecrated bread and places it aside.

**This gold cup sounds like a pyx to me.

The antidoron (which is not consecrated) would be placed in a large bowl or tray.**

A covered gold cup sounds suspiciously like a ciborium to me. If indeed it was that, then the contents were intended to be Consecrated. Of course, I wasn’t there to give the celebrant the third-degree, so I don’t know.

I’m certainly not an expert on things Byzantine, but my understanding is that the antidoron is placed just the way you say: in a bowl or tray. I somehow recall that if there is no prokomedia table (which is rare unless it was a non-Byzantine church) the antidoron would be placed off the antimension and as far away as possible.

There is, of course, always the possibility (probability?) that such practices may differ within the various Byzantine usages, yet even with the preceding disclaimers I’m sure I’ll be slammed by other parties for even having posted this.

 

[PJM]

At a Byzantine Catholic Church I visit, the priest prepares the gifts by placing wine in a chalice and by cutting up bread into small cubes and placing them on the diskos covered by the asterisk and then a veil. He also fills a lidded gold cup with cubes of the same unconsecrated bread and places it aside.

The bread in the diskos along with the wine in the chalice is transformed into the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ (the bread in the gold cup is most certainly not) and they are ultimately co-mingled. While he is distributing Holy Communion if he finds that he is running short of the “Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ under the appearance of cubed bread” he will transfer some of the unconsecrated bread from the gold cup to the chalice bearing the Precious Blood and then distribute Holy Communion under one consecrated species.

Is this kosher?

No?

The Eastern Church’s retain communion with us through Apolostolic Unity.

I can’t speak to the form of bread they use, but in the Latin Rite it must be unlevened. You were not quite clear (likely my fault) on where the second Chiborioum is palced? In the RCC it is placed on a white cloth called a “Corporal” and anyting thing placed on it, so long as it is the intention of the priest to Consecrate it, becomes Consecrated.

Perhaps they have something similar. If not this could be a grevious abuse?

God bless,

PJM m.c.

BVM please lead us to your Son!

 

[Diak]

he bread in the diskos along with the wine in the chalice is transformed into the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ (the bread in the gold cup is most certainly not) and they are ultimately co-mingled. While he is distributing Holy Communion if he finds that he is running short of the “Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ under the appearance of cubed bread” he will transfer some of the unconsecrated bread from the gold cup to the chalice bearing the Precious Blood and then distribute Holy Communion under one consecrated species.

It could be that more was consecrated (for the sick, to be reserved, etc.) on another diskos or smaller chalice but was held back to be reserved. Or perhaps he obtained more from the “kivot” or tabernacle.

I know of several priests who reserve the Mysteries in a smaller chalice within the kivot so when it is needed for Holy Communion wine can be added easily and the vessel used for Communion outside of the Divine Liturgy.

Similar to what was mentioned with the corporal, all bread and wine upon the antimension is pointed to by the priest during the Anaphora. Extra “Lambs” are consecrated to be reserved as needed - for Liturgies of the Presanctified Gifts or for the sick, etc.

 

[Patchunky]

this is what my parish reserves ours in…

http://www.holoviak.com/acatalog/433-EGP.jpg

 

[osmond]

He also fills a lidded gold cup with cubes of the same unconsecrated bread and places it aside.

**This gold cup sounds like a pyx to me.

The antidoron (which is not consecrated) would be placed in a large bowl or tray.**

The gold cup is not a pyx. If it was I would have called it that. It’s kept in the freezer holding cubes of non-consecrated bread between Sunday Divine Liturgies.

 

[osmond]

A covered gold cup sounds suspiciously like a ciborium to me. If indeed it was that, then the contents were intended to be Consecrated. Of course, I wasn’t there to give the celebrant the third-degree, so I don’t know.

I’m certainly not an expert on things Byzantine, but my understanding is that the antidoron is placed just the way you say: in a bowl or tray. I somehow recall that if there is no prokomedia table (which is rare unless it was a non-Byzantine church) the antidoron would be placed off the antimension and as far away as possible.

There is, of course, always the possibility (probability?) that such practices may differ within the various Byzantine usages, yet even with the preceding disclaimers I’m sure I’ll be slammed by other parties for even having posted this.

It’s neither a pyx nor a ciborium. Nor does it EVER hold the Blessed Sacrament. The only reason it’s gold is to look presentable on the edge of the altar.

Why question the formulation of my question? I am certain of what’s going on and I thought I was fairly clear in explaining the situation?

 

[osmond]

No?

The Eastern Church’s retain communion with us through Apolostolic Unity.

I can’t speak to the form of bread they use, but in the Latin Rite it must be unlevened. You were not quite clear (likely my fault) on where the second Chiborioum is palced? In the RCC it is placed on a white cloth called a “Corporal” and anyting thing placed on it, so long as it is the intention of the priest to Consecrate it, becomes Consecrated.

Perhaps they have something similar. If not this could be a grevious abuse?

God bless,

PJM m.c.

BVM please lead us to your Son!

It’s not a ciborium. Its contents is never consecrated. Please read what I wrote. I was very deliberate.

 

[osmond]

It could be that more was consecrated (for the sick, to be reserved, etc.) on another diskos or smaller chalice but was held back to be reserved. Or perhaps he obtained more from the “kivot” or tabernacle.

I know of several priests who reserve the Mysteries in a smaller chalice within the kivot so when it is needed for Holy Communion wine can be added easily and the vessel used for Communion outside of the Divine Liturgy.

Similar to what was mentioned with the corporal, all bread and wine upon the antimension is pointed to by the priest during the Anaphora. Extra “Lambs” are consecrated to be reserved as needed - for Liturgies of the Presanctified Gifts or for the sick, etc.

No, that’s not what I said. It’s a covered gold colored cup that holds NON-consecrated cubes of bread that is added to the Precious Blood IF the priest runs low of the consecrated species.

If the Blessed Sacrament is being prepared for repose, we have an entire procedure for that and ends-up in the tabernacle.

 

[Deacon_Lance]

I don’t think that this is the best practice, but ultimately it is exactly what we do at the Liturgy of the Presanctified but in reverse. Why he just doesn’t consecrate a bigger Lamb to ensure he has enough particles ecapes me.

Fr. Deacon Lance

 

[osmond]

I don’t think that this is the best practice, but ultimately it is exactly what we do at the Liturgy of the Presanctified but in reverse. Why he just doesn’t consecrate a bigger Lamb to ensure he has enough particles ecapes me.

Fr. Deacon Lance

I suppose the concern would be the reverse – too much of the Blessed Sacrament to consume if it was already co-mingled or repose if it was not.

Some parishes use tiny cubes of the Sacred Species. Our’s are about the size of a bouillon cube. The cure might be using smaler cubes.

 

[Diak]

If indeed these are unconsecrated particles, this is not a practice that is allowed for in the Liturgikon or the Ordo.

 

[osmond]

If indeed these are unconsecrated particles, this is not a practice that is allowed for in the Liturgikon or the Ordo.

They are indeed unconsecrated cubes of bread. That has never been a question. While not expressly permitted I do see how it is very similar to having unconsecrated wine added to the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ under the appearance of bread. Certainly not optimal but not a grave abuse either.