Non-Denom a denomination?

[NonDenom]

Hi All
Boy you sure have it figured out. Funny how when a Prot say’s something about Catholics you say that they are ignorant of your faith, but when it comes to someone else’s belief you are quick to critisize. It is the arrogance of your church and the total lording over of the leaders of your church that causes people to look to God for guidence in their lives. In the first place you have no right saying who does and who doesn’t belong to Christ, for we are HIS children. I guess that is another example of your arrogance.

 

[jasonb82abn]

Jmj

Hi NonDenom. I’d like to say that your feelings being hurt was not the intention of any of these posts. Your post obviously shows that your response is an emotional one… not really a reply at all to what was said. But, I can relate! I’ve probably responded the same way when I felt my faith was being “attacked.” However, nobody is attacking your faith – truthfully. Catholics cherish and love the faith that Protestants have for our Lord! That might not seem true to you now, but hopefully one day you will understand!

I have read your posts before and I am glad that you are HERE posting at all! Please try not to focus so much on the negative feelings that tend to surface when you are challenged … focusing on the wrong things is like Screwtape’s old tricks to distract you! (C.S. Lewis… what a writer!) Instead of thinking about how arrogant you think Catholics are and how offended you feel… take a while to think and pray about some of the things that were said… and question them for yourself! It’s sometimes a little easier to question yourself than to have someone else do it!

What church do you belong to?
What does non-denominational really mean?
What do non-denominational churches have in common?
What do they not have in common?
Is one church just as good as the next?
Where did your church come from? Who founded it?
Why are you a member of THAT church and not another?

I could think of a million questions like that… but they won’t mean much to you if all you can think about is how arrogant I seem to even ask. And maybe you’re right! Maybe I do seem that way. The best way to go about it, like I said, is to truly ask yourself these sort of questions. It helps to get an idea of what kinds of questions to ask though! I would not want you to become a Catholic because you got fed up with the debate… and you just figure that becoming a Catholic is probably a good idea. No way! You should become a Catholic because that is where the Holy Spirit is guiding you! The choice should come from within! I would hate for you to feel like you were suckered in, or pushed/pulled into the Church… I wouldn’t want you to join unless it was something you couldn’t WAIT to do! But, I hope that you do!

We all want you to come home my friend – as does He! Don’t fall back on spiritual ambiguity… there is a Church… and it all makes a difference. Thank you for your post though, I will try to remember how Protestants might react to what I post more… and be more charitable… so they can focus on the meaning and not the message! So, thank you for that! Take care of yourself my friend!

May the Lord be with you!

Jason

 

[Church_Militant]

NonDenom:

Hi All
Boy you sure have it figured out. Funny how when a Prot say’s something about Catholics you say that they are ignorant of your faith, but when it comes to someone else’s belief you are quick to critisize. It is the arrogance of your church and the total lording over of the leaders of your church that causes people to look to God for guidence in their lives. In the first place you have no right saying who does and who doesn’t belong to Christ, for we are HIS children. I guess that is another example of your arrogance.

I could just say that ya can’t take what you and your friends dish out to us Catholics. I could say that…but I’m not going to.

The fact is that many people from outside the church go way outta their way to tell us what we believe and their remarks would never even have been voiced at all had they bothered to actually read just the articles on the CA ma(name removed by moderator)age Library .

I’d really appreciate it if you’d mind your mouth about Catholic “arrogance” as if that is how you plan to display your Christian love and concern for us, then you can bet you’re gonna catch heat for it and it does in fact violate the charity rules that you agreed to when you came aboard with us here. (Forum Rules )

It’s not arrogance though, and I don’t see where you get that from. We speak from the assurance of our faith and in that respect are no more arrogant than any believer who rejoices in their faith.

So where are we so wrong?

Non-denominationalism has become just another non-Catholic denomination with doctrines that they share with other non-Catholics (and some they share with us), but that’s about all that we can see from the outside.

I personally have encountered both decent folks whose fellowship I really enjoy among n-ds and then I have encountered those who are really ignorant of the Catholic faith and spout such vitriolic anti-Catholic rhetoric that I avoid them.

My “jury” of discernment is still out on you personally, but since you chose “Non-Denom” as your nickname on this forum, I will turn to you to correct us.

If we are wrong about what we have said so far in this discussion, then please feel free to enlighten us so we can understand.

So…is this your only answer, or are you gonna go back through the 21 or so posts on this thread and give us accurate information about your non-denominational denomination or whatever it is? No hard feelings so far.
Pax tecum,

 

[scylla]

Many of us have been in non-denominational churches before and are speaking from experience, if we are mis-representing non-denominational churches in any way then feel free to correct us.

I am pretty sure what I posted was a pretty accurate view, I am willing to concede if I did act uncharitably or mis-represent non-denominational churches.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[bookgirl]

Sorry, haven’t been here since I started the post. All I meant is that even down to the non-denominational “jargon” there are a growing and strengthening set of similarities between these churches, so why are they different churches? Two of my best friends are ND and they choose their church b/c they feel comfortable there, they like the pastor, they like the music style. But they would readily admit that there are quite a few other churches in town that would fit their fundamental beliefs, and that they would consider churches right in line with theirs. I guess what I’m saying is that instead of non-denominational meaning “not belonging to a denomination” it’s quickly starting to mean a very specific group of Christians who believe very closely and specifically the same things, they just happen to have different worship styles, if even that.

Non-denom, my point was not to insult you, or to tell you what you believe. It was just an observation on a certain term ironically becoming somewhat of an oxymoron, if that makes any sense. It wasn’t a judgement at all!!!

 

[jasonb82abn]

Jmj

Catholic- “So… what kind of church do you go to?”
NDP – “A non-denominational church.”
Catholic – “Oh yeah? That’s cool. What does that mean anyway?”
NDP – “It means we’re ‘just’ Christian.”
Catholic – “…?”

Why are so many Catholics confused when they run into this? Because Christians are DEFINED by their belief! If a Protestant church has no name, or no affiliation, how is a person to know what that church teaches and believes?

May the Lord be with you!

Jason

 

[MarysRoses]

Non denominational = Stealth Baptist

 

[Mickey]

NonDenom:

Funny how when a Prot say’s something about Catholics you say that they are ignorant of your faith, but when it comes to someone else’s belief you are quick to critisize.

FYI, The term “prot” is offensive to those of the reformed Christian affiliation.

 

[december]

Oh yeah, I was in a non-denominational prayer group years back. Non-denominational alright, I just couldn’t be Catholic… that was the only rule. Or should I put it this way, I couldn’t be serious about being Catholic! ie, I had to accept that anybody can bless and break bread. And why not? It’s only bread!

 

[NonDenom]

Jason

Hi Jason
Here are some answers to your questions.

What church do you belong to?

Benson Street Church of Christ, although we are not affiliated with any Denominationalized Churches of Christ.

What does non-denominational really mean?

We do not belong to any group of church’s, we are autonomous in the fact that we do not belong to any organized group of church’s. This does not mean that we believe whatever our Minister says, we use the scriptures as our law and the Holy Spirit as our guide.
2 Tim 3:16

What do non-denominational churches have in common?

I honestly don’t know what other N-D church’s believe but I would hope that they follow Christ and his word as best they can.

What do they not have in common?

Same as above

Is one church just as good as the next?

Thats not for me to say.

Where did your church come from?

We belong to Christ’s church so I would say that it came from him.

Who founded it?

If you are asking me who founded the church that I attend, then it was Christ of course.

Why are you a member of THAT church and not another?

The reason that I attend Benson Street is because of the hearts of the people that go there. They realy have a servants heart and do their best serve the Lord. We are a Bible based church.

Thanks.

 

[jasonb82abn]

Jmj

Hi NonDenom,

I respect the fact that you even answered, that gives me hope! You know, it’s been said that when a person asks another a question… they often already know what answer they’re looking for! lol

In my defense though - I guess I would like to say that I wasn’t really “looking” for answers NonDenom, I was really just hoping that you would spend some time praying and thinking about the nature of the questions! Not looking for a quick response.

I’m not going to respond to all of your answers, but I’ll speak to a few… and I’ll try to respond (in a question format) in a similar fashion to how you answered.

Quote:
Is one church just as good as the next?

Thats not for me to say.

Isn’t it? Haven’t you chosen to belong to one particular church and not another?

Quote:
Where did your church come from?

We belong to Christ’s church so I would say that it came from him.

How do you belong to Christ’s Church… when (by your own admission in a way) a large part of what your church stands for is “We are our OWN church!” ??

Quote:
Who founded it?

If you are asking me who founded the church that I attend, then it was Christ of course.

I’m going to try not to be condescending here… because I think you know better than this, or maybe you’re joking a little bit. But, if you really believe this is an honest answer… why don’t you do some quick research to see how long your church has been around and who founded it?

Keep looking for the truth my friend! He will show it to you!

May the Lord be with you!

Jason

 

[NonDenom]

Hi

Isn’t it? Haven’t you chosen to belong to one particular church and not another?

Yes I have, but that doesn’t mean that I think your church or the one down the street is bad.

How do you belong to Christ’s Church… when (by your own admission in a way) a large part of what your church stands for is “We are our OWN church!” ??

This is exactly a point that I have trying to make in some other post’s, you keep making the point that “The Church” is the organization called the Catholic church. Scripture refers to US as being the church. Christians are what makup the church.

I’m going to try not to be condescending here… because I think you know better than this, or maybe you’re joking a little bit. But, if you really believe this is an honest answer… why don’t you do some quick research to see how long your church has been around and who founded it?

If Christ is my savior, and he is. If I belong to Christ’s church, and I do. Then I belong to the church that Christ founded himself. You can have all the fancy buildings and the fancy robes, I don’t put much stock in those things. I give my whole life to Jesus and he has promiced me that if I do that then I will be able to worship him in person. As the song goes “I can only imagine”.
Thanks.

 

[Nun_ofthe_Above]

Little anecdote about my niece and her husband…They started attending church on a regular basis, and one day I asked what religion they were. My niece informed me that they were non- denominational. Perplexed at the possibility of a group of individuals coming together and listening to someone on a weekly basis and not sharing the theological stance being presented to them, was complete alien to me. Therefore, if they are in agreeance, then that would seem to make the non-denom, a denom…I pressed her further on the subject, and she had a good think about it and told me she thought it was loosely run by one of the denominations starting with P…then upon further reflection, she said she thought it was the Pentacostals!
So it would appear that seemingly non-denom are being influenced by a denomination, even if they don’t realize it, if they attend church. The only way to be truly non-denom, is to not attend church and hold to your very own set of beliefs.

Peace and love to all.

 

[Contarini]

Pentecostals aren’t a denomination. They are a tradition. A denomination would be Assemblies of God, Church of God (Cleveland), Church of God (Prophecy), Pentecostal Holiness (though that can also be used as the name of a broader tradition), etc.

A denomination is a group of (local) churches that has some kind of authority structure and organization. There are groups that claim to be nondenominational but are part of a loose fellowship of churches with little or no authority over the local congregations (the Christian Churches and Churches of Christ, for instance). One could argue that these are “denominations,” but it all depends on your definition.

However, the fact that several churches share similar theology and traditions does not make them a “denomination.” A “denomination” is quite a specific thing.

Edwin

 

[Nun_ofthe_Above]

Hi Contarini,
I appreciate what you are saying, but why in all honesty would the Pentacostals, whether you deem them a denomination or not; not have a say in the theological information being dished out? Even if it is only loosely involved, it is having an influence.
Whatever the case, these people are still being inundated with a set of ‘someone’s’ beliefs, and therefore really are a denomination in and of themselves.
Having said that; if they believe in God and are baptized in the name of the Father and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, then whatever their beliefs / name, they are Christians, and that is better than not being a Christian.

Let us all stand united in our Christianity, and try not to worry so much about what ‘denomination’ / ‘religious body’ we belong to. If we are conciously living our lives as we believe God wishes us to, then it doesn’t matter so much. God knows our hearts and knows if we are doing our best to follow Him…Having said that, it doesn’t mean we should remain uneducated. We should continually read and learn.

Peace and love to you and your loved ones.

 

[jasonb82abn]

Jmj

NonDenom, I would like to think that at least some of what I was trying to communicate to you didn’t get lost.

Yes, Christians are the Church; we are the Body of Christ. I never meant to imply that you can separate Christians from His Church – you can’t. And you can’t separate Christ from His Church - though many try.

Let me ask you this… you think that every “Christian” church is founded by Christ by virtue of their belief in Him? But, it doesn’t really matter WHAT they believe ABOUT Him? I mean, this has nothing to do with when your beliefs and doctrines were established? Not to mention the organization of your “church” itself?

Hypothetical: If I was not a Catholic, and I considered myself and my church to be a Christian church, founded by Christ, but I believe and my church teaches to reject the Holy Trinity… as “un-biblical” – was Christ REALLY the founder of my church? Or what if my church taught that Christ was only a created being, like an angel or a human maybe, and that He BECAME a God or a part of God… but since I believe that He IS God and confess Him to be my Lord and Savior… I’m still a Christian right? And Christ founded my Church too right?

The point is, all sorts of these beliefs can be argued from Scripture… and argued well! And if you (personally) ever go into a debate against a well-informed Unitarian Universalist “Christian,” I wish you luck! I have watched a UU Christians frustrate and anger traditional Protestant Christians until they lost control of their tempers and started behaving very “un-Christian like.” Why? Because they can use the Bible itself to demonstrate their heretical beliefs… and they do a VERY good job of it! If you try to debate a UU Christian, with the “Bible alone,” then chances are that you will be at a serious disadvantage. For every verse you quote to them, they’ll have two or three verses ready to contradict what you’re saying. And you cannot make appeals to Tradition, history, or the early Church… because that is not the realm of Protestants, you have rejected these things simply by your choice of church… and the UU Christian will logically point that out.

Let me be honest. You and your church may be “closer” to the truth than those “Christian” organizations that very obviously reject fundamental Christian beliefs that you and I would agree on. But, you are still in the same boat as they are… if not the same boat, at least the same type of boat with the same deficiencies!

You think the Catholic Church isn’t your true home because you don’t like the beautiful buildings and the priestly vestments? If you think that Catholics believe the Church teaches the truth because our buildings are impressive and our clergy ‘dress for the occasion’ – you are very mistaken. My atheist next door neighbor could dress in robes, build a great and beautiful worship center, and start preaching the “word” – but that wouldn’t validate what he was saying would it? Nor would it invalidate what he was saying.

I will pray that you open your mind and heart. You should come home to the Catholic Church my friend – truly, it is your home. We welcome you, the Martyrs and all the Saints welcome you, and most of all… He welcomes you! You deserve all that God has to offer my friend.

May the Lord be with you!

Jason

 

[scylla]

Hello Nondenom maybe this will help you see what the Christians on this board see when they see the term nondenomination.

If I have a coin, that is a particular denomination of coin. If you create a .73 cent piece and deny it is a denomination all you are doing is creating another coin and calling it not a denomination since it doesn’t match the other coins out there. But denying it as a denomination does not make it not one, it is just a new one.

Yet since is has a set of beliefs, such as belief in Scripture, Christ as the Son of God then you have a set of beliefs that define you. If someone wants to be a minister of your Church but deny’s belief in Christ, then would they be allowed to be a minister in your church?

I fully believe you are my brother\sister in Christ.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[Singinbeauty]

Genesis315:

If you prod non-denoms enough they’ll eventually admit they’re Baptists.

I put a REALLY big target on my chest… Non-Denom here! Prod away!!!

I mean, come on people, are we REALLY having this discussion? sigh

I claim non-denom because it is the closest thing I have come to find that doesn’t SEEM to be clouded by men’s traditions that favor over God’s. But this is what I have found. It doesn’t mean that it’s going to work for everyone. Some people need the structure of more conservative traditional churches while others are a bit more liberal than I am when it comes to the christian faith. But do you truly think that when God looks at us He is looking at what building door we darken rather than our hearts and our love for Him? God doesn’t see denominations in HIS church because HIS church is US. WE as christians are HIS church. The division we feel is OUR (as a christian whole) doing. By chastizing someone for worshiping God with all their hearts just because they don’t do it the same way you do is so wrong and I am sad that there are those who are so full of distaste for their protestant (or even catholic) brothers and sisters that they don’t see what God may see right they only see what they THINK is wrong.

Boy, why do I feel I am going to get flamed for this???

 

[Contarini]

Nun_ofthe_Above:

Hi Contarini,
I appreciate what you are saying, but why in all honesty would the Pentacostals, whether you deem them a denomination or not; not have a say in the theological information being dished out?

My point is that Pentecostals are made up of numerous denominations and independent churches. There is no one unified group called “Pentecostals” to “have a say.”

Even if it is only loosely involved, it is having an influence.
Whatever the case, these people are still being inundated with a set of ‘someone’s’ beliefs, and therefore really are a denomination in and of themselves.

If you want to define a “denomination” as a “set of beliefs,” I can’t stop you. But usually the term implies some kind of institutional structure, not simply shared beliefs.

In the academic/theological circles I’m familiar with, the term “tradition” is usually used for the broader concept of a set of shared beliefs/practices. So one would speak of the “Wesleyan/Holiness tradition” (my own background), or the Pentecostal, or Baptist, or Reformed, or Anglican traditions. All of these traditions include more than one denomination.

Again, there’s nothing to say that this usage is more correct than yours, but I think it is more useful and will be less misleading.

When you tell nondenominational people that they are a “denomination,” you will make no sense to them, because they will think that you are saying that they are under some sort of institutional umbrella. (If you call them a “tradition” they won’t like that much, but I think you stand more chance of getting your point across, which is that they are not “just Christians” but rather adhere to a particular flavor of the Christian Faith. At least I think that’s the point you are trying to make, and it’s a very valid one.)

Edwin

 

[scylla]

Glad to see you Singing,

Congrats again on your baptism,

I accept these people as my brothers and sisters in Christ and invite them as separated bretheren to unity in the Catholic Church. I do not criticize them and will join them in praise and study. I just wont agree when they state their interpretations as truth. Since there is only one truth.

A much more accurate claim would be
“Independant Christian Church”

This would then not be misleading people as a true nondenominational would allow for Catholic beliefs, Unitarian beliefs, Lutheran beliefs, etc and not state contrary to that in their statements of faith. Yet we do not see that in current nondenominational churches, they cause division by starting new churches and not joining current churches and contributing to them, in a search for truth. I am not criticizing, but standing up for the truth.

Edit: Contarini, made a good point it is probably better to refer to them as a faith tradition than denomination as that might be more understandable.

In Christ our savior,
Scylla

If you would like to read a great testimony click here
davidmacd.com/
I just read it and it is pretty good.