Non-Denom a denomination?

[Singinbeauty]

Peace_Seeker:

The vote of the Cardinals is of free will - guided or not, it’s just an election. So I presume they truly are “picking the person that’s best for the job.”

I’m still pretty sure that Jesus did not say, “You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my 8,000+ churches all claiming to have the Truth and the Holy Spirit shall guide them all and contradict them. …Oh, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail because they all follow me anyway.”

Something people shouldn’t do (my opinion, of course) is judge a group based on actions of extremists or certain individuals. You will find a sinner in every church, for all humans are sinners. Should you reject all churches? Of course not! The Catholic Church promises truth, not impeccability (which even the Pope does not possess).

Hope I’m not making any wrong statements here Jesus is Savior, King of the Nations, Light of the World!

But what if what protestants have been saying is TRUE. That the Church that Jesus built was not so much an institution but the body made up of christians? You see, Hell has not and cannot prevail against the unity of people who believe that Jesus is the Savior of the world. No matter the things that Satan has done in each denomination, including the catholic church, new christians bow and pray before God EVERY day! Hallelujah!!! Despite what Satan is trying to do in the Church God still wins! Praise the Lord!
Acts 2:46-48 (New Living Translation):

46They worshiped together at the Temple each day, met in homes for the Lord’s Supper, and shared their meals with great joy and generosity-- 47all the while praising God and enjoying the goodwill of all the people. And each day the Lord added to their group those who were being saved.

It’s the big picture that I am trying to see. I may not agree with the catholic church’s teachings but do I believe that they are not my christian brothers or sisters??? NO! They lead people to God and that is the bottom line. Jesus said that NO MAN comes to the Father but by HIM. Not any church, not any practice, not any THING or person. HIM. How can any church claim that there is no salvation outside of that church? Again, NO MAN COMES TO THE FATHER BUT THROUGH JESUS CHRIST. Plain and simple.

The CHURCH that has Jesus at the head of it is the body of believers in Christ. Not a building or a denomination. The early church is even a shoot off of Judaism. The early church broke off of the Jewish faith because they believed that Jesus died for their sins while the Jewish faith is STILL looking and waiting for a Savior. Giving creedence to the break off of the protestant churches from the catholic church. The Church that Jesus started continually changes and evolves as the world needs. We may worship differently but we worship the same God and LOVE Him with all our hearts, minds, and souls.

Why do some hate this idea so much? This is a serious question. I really don’t understand the hate and distaste for those who worship God differently…

 

[jasonb82abn]

Jmj

Greetings Singinbeauty! I have little doubt that you are sincere in your beliefs… and I have little doubt that you are very sincere in your love of our Lord! Bless you! I’m going to try to reply to a thing or two here…

Jesus said that NO MAN comes to the Father but by HIM. Not any church, not any practice, not any THING or person. HIM. How can any church claim that there is no salvation outside of that church? Again, NO MAN COMES TO THE FATHER BUT THROUGH JESUS CHRIST. Plain and simple.

Plain and simple? It’s easy to say “No church can save a person… only Christ can!” A Catholic lacking in charity for a moment might reply – “Duh!” lol
Catholics do not believe that the Church “saves” people through her own power though - I think that this is what you are failing to see! Consider this… when we confess our sins to a Priest and receive absolution… it’s not from the Priests own power – it is Christ working in him at that moment! The same goes for the Church (on a much larger and much more wonderful scale though!)

The CHURCH that has Jesus at the head of it is the body of believers in Christ. Not a building or a denomination. The early church is even a shoot off of Judaism. … The Church that Jesus started continually changes and evolves as the world needs. We may worship differently but we worship the same God and LOVE Him with all our hearts, minds, and souls.

The Catholic Church does not teach the truth because she has impressive buildings or because she is a reasonable “denominational” alternative. There is no reasonable alternative to His Church. I think that if you follow Him, you will meet Him on His terms, not expect Him to meet you on yours… and if you can humble yourself enough to meet Him on His terms, you will “be not afraid” to come home to His Church! And that “early church” that broke off of the Jewish faith IS the Catholic Church. Be reasonable and you will see that the Church is you home my friend! And we SOOOOO want you to come home! And what are you talking about with changing and evolving? This sounds like you are saying that the truth is up for grabs by the swaying inclinations of society and culture - this is no reason or basis for “change.”

Why do some hate this idea so much? This is a serious question. I really don’t understand the hate and distaste for those who worship God differently…

Worshipping differently is not even close to being the real issue here my friend. This thinking is focusing on “how” the message is transmitted… rather than the message itself! And there is GREAT diversity in the worship styles of the Catholic Church, quite a wealth of worshipping “styles” – you might be interested to know! But, while there is a freedom of expression here, WHAT is expressed does not enjoy that freedom to deviate, nor should it. The Catholic Church, in my opinion, cares much more about the message than how that message is communicated. Protestants can be very proficient at transmitting their message … but, the message is only accurate on the simplest points… and even on the simple points, they can stray!

Think of that children’s game – “telephone,” where the kids sit in a circle and whisper a message into each other’s ear and see if the message changed when it gets around. It’s a neat exercise to show how people CAN honestly get things messed up a little. I see Protestantism as being this circle of children (not to be condescending… they might just as well be adults ) passing along the message THEY received from the Church. If I were to imagine the Church… the children would have a tape recorder, LISTEN to the actual message themselves, and then pass the tape recorder along! The message doesn’t change!

With “hopeful confidence” you should come home my friend! Please stop telling people that A church is just as good as His Church… this is not the truth (though I know you probably don’t see it this way yet.) I know that it must be hard to hear Catholics tell you that they make their home in His Church – founded by Him. You want this to be true for yourself as well… I can understand. And I can understand why you would feel hurt by the implication that your church, where you feel at home, isn’t His Church – though it might bear a likeness. With faith, you will receive understanding my friend… and I know you will continue to seek Him! I think you will be a wonderful Catholic some day! We need more caring people like you! So, come on home!!! Come accept the Lord as your personal savior in the most intimate and miraculous way imaginable… in the Eucharist!

May the Lord be with you!

Jason

 

[Peace_Seeker_1]

applauds for Jason Well done, brother

Let’s think about this - whether we think the Bible actually holds ALL truth for Christianity. Non-Denoms are Bible-based churches, correct? That means all valid teachings that should be in there already are, right?

I don’t know the exact quote, but it says somewhere in the NT that not everything Jesus said or did is even written down. The New Testament means New “Witness” - and should be treated with respect as divinely inspired, but not entirety of truth. The Church possessed this through Sacred Tradition, preserving what it had for 2,000 years.

I hope I’m not just ranting here, but a question I ask for Non-Denoms: Is the entirety of Jesus’ truth in the New Testament for you? How come?

• Peace and Jesus be with you all,
  Peace

 

[scylla]

I agree that all Churches hold truth but if they contradict each other then they are only right on certain things. Or there are multiple truths. We know there is one truth so all these churches must hold some truth. So I do agree that your church does teach some truth,but by starting another non-denomination they are breaking up the Body of Christ more, no matter how general their message is.

We do not hate protestants and I see very little of that directed, what we do dislike is any body suggesting that Jesus didn’t have the power to maintain a consistant body of truth. Or that the truth was only maintained until the Bible came along and everyone then forgot what it was and fell away until the reformation?

Or that truth is whatever you think it is and everyone is entitled to their own opinion of what it is? Or that truth is only held totally by your own personal interpretation 20 centuries removed from the apostles and this is the same understanding of the faith that the apostles had?

I believe salvation is through Jesus Christ alone, as does the Catholic Church profess.

This is the prologue of the Catechism,
"FATHER, . . . this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."1 "God our Savior desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."2 "There is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved"3 - than the name of JESUS.

But there is “one faith one baptism” that is why I stay in the Church Jesus founded. I will find people who love Jesus Christ in other churches that people have started but I trust in the power of God to maintain the truth in His Church.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[Singinbeauty]

jasonb82abn:

Jmj

Greetings Singinbeauty! I have little doubt that you are sincere in your beliefs… and I have little doubt that you are very sincere in your love of our Lord! Bless you! I’m going to try to reply to a thing or two here…

Plain and simple? It’s easy to say “No church can save a person… only Christ can!” A Catholic lacking in charity for a moment might reply – “Duh!” lol
Catholics do not believe that the Church “saves” people through her own power though - I think that this is what you are failing to see! Consider this… when we confess our sins to a Priest and receive absolution… it’s not from the Priests own power – it is Christ working in him at that moment! The same goes for the Church (on a much larger and much more wonderful scale though!)

I know that you believe this with all your heart, mind, and soul and that is wonderful! You need to believe that you need a human man to tell you that you are forgiven for the sins you commit. Some people need this. To hear it outloud is a greater proof, to some, than just knowing by faith that Jesus’ sacrifice cleansed their hearts of their sins…
Revelation 1:5 (New Living Translation):

5and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness to these things, the first to rise from the dead, and the commander of all the rulers of the world.
All praise to him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by shedding his blood for us.

I really am not trying to sound like I am patronizing anyone and I apologize because I do see how it can be perveived this way. I don’t need a mere man to tell me that my sins are forgiven because, as stated countless times in the bible, Jesus has already taken care of that for me.
Acts 2:37-39 (New Living Translation):

37Peter’s words convicted them deeply, and they said to him and to the other apostles, “Brothers, what should we do?”
38Peter replied, “Each of you must turn from your sins and turn to God, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.] Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39This promise is to you and to your children, and even to the Gentiles[a]–all who have been called by the Lord our God.”
Notice Peter, whom you claim to be the FIRST pope, doesn’t say you need to confess your sins to a priest or anyone else for forgivness of your sins but you MUST be baptized in the name of Jesus to be forgiven. I do not need a priest to tell me I am forgiven. It’s already been taken care of.

jasonb82abn:

The Catholic Church does not teach the truth because she has impressive buildings or because she is a reasonable “denominational” alternative. There is no reasonable alternative to His Church. I think that if you follow Him, you will meet Him on His terms, not expect Him to meet you on yours… and if you can humble yourself enough to meet Him on His terms, you will “be not afraid” to come home to His Church! And that “early church” that broke off of the Jewish faith IS the Catholic Church. Be reasonable and you will see that the Church is you home my friend! And we SOOOOO want you to come home! And what are you talking about with changing and evolving? This sounds like you are saying that the truth is up for grabs by the swaying inclinations of society and culture - this is no reason or basis for “change.”

I don’t know where you get that I expect God to meet me on MY terms. This is in NO WAY the case. I expect to bow down before my God, in His presence, and grovel. Until I see absolute proof that my very belief core system is proven wrong I will stick to it. Some traditions and beliefs held by the catholic church are not in the bible. And with the magnitude that they hold in that belief structure they would have been if that was to be Jesus’ church. But again, if I am proven wrong (which I haven’t been convinced as of yet) I will gladly walk into a catholic church and sit down in the pew…

jasonb82abn:

Worshipping differently is not even close to being the real issue here my friend. This thinking is focusing on “how” the message is transmitted… rather than the message itself! And there is GREAT diversity in the worship styles of the Catholic Church, quite a wealth of worshipping “styles” – you might be interested to know! But, while there is a freedom of expression here, WHAT is expressed does not enjoy that freedom to deviate, nor should it. The Catholic Church, in my opinion, cares much more about the message than how that message is communicated. Protestants can be very proficient at transmitting their message … but, the message is only accurate on the simplest points… and even on the simple points, they can stray!

continued below…

 

[Singinbeauty]

jasonb82abn:

Think of that children’s game – “telephone,” where the kids sit in a circle and whisper a message into each other’s ear and see if the message changed when it gets around. It’s a neat exercise to show how people CAN honestly get things messed up a little. I see Protestantism as being this circle of children (not to be condescending… they might just as well be adults ) passing along the message THEY received from the Church. If I were to imagine the Church… the children would have a tape recorder, LISTEN to the actual message themselves, and then pass the tape recorder along! The message doesn’t change!

Ah, but see, it doesn’t change within the protestant CHRISTIAN churches either. You can’t lump every other religion into the protestant category just because it ain’t catholic. We are talking of the different CHRISTIAN denominations. And their message remains the same. That JESUS IS LORD AND HAS CLEANSED US OF OUR SINS. So it is plain and simple. And the message has not changed. As I have stated in an earlier post there are a lot of very big things that have changed in the catholic belief system regarding Mary and other important issues. So you can’t say the church hasn’t changed it’s mind on a few things.

jasonb82abn:

With “hopeful confidence” you should come home my friend! Please stop telling people that A church is just as good as His Church… this is not the truth (though I know you probably don’t see it this way yet.) I know that it must be hard to hear Catholics tell you that they make their home in His Church – founded by Him. You want this to be true for yourself as well… I can understand. And I can understand why you would feel hurt by the implication that your church, where you feel at home, isn’t His Church – though it might bear a likeness. With faith, you will receive understanding my friend… and I know you will continue to seek Him! I think you will be a wonderful Catholic some day! We need more caring people like you! So, come on home!!! Come accept the Lord as your personal savior in the most intimate and miraculous way imaginable… in the Eucharist!

May the Lord be with you!

Jason

While I don’t share your ‘hopeful confidence’ in my entry into the catholic church I encourage you to keep praying about it if you feel you are being led to be. I welcome any prayers regarding my relationship with God. BUT please note that I am in no way praying for a conversion on your part. You believe that Jesus is who He claims to be and that is all I need to know. You are my brother in Christ and I will have a hug waiting for you in Heaven my friend!

 

[jasonb82abn]

Jmj

Thank you Peace_Seeker! You too! I think you were referring to John 21:25.

Singinbeauty, thank you for your kind words! Sincerely… thank you.

The purpose of the example of the Priest absolving one through the sacrament of Reconcilliation (Confession) was only to illustrate that we do not believe that the Priest himself has the power to forgive sins – any Catholic that DOES believe this is quite simply mistaken.

I have to ask, since you brought an argument against this Holy Sacrament… what are your understandings about Confession? I assure you that it is FAR from contrary to the written Word of God – where we are commanded to confess our sins to one another, and where Jesus literally chooses individuals who He will entrust with the power (His power, not theirs) to hear confessions, and to forgive sins. We MUST repent and turn from sin. And yes, His most perfect sacrifice has and does win forgiveness for us all, but we must “hold fast.” We continue to sin… when this happens after our initial conversion (Baptism,) we have turned from Him… and we must turn back!

Do Catholics believe that God cannot feel our sorrow, or forgive us unless we confess to a Priest and receive absolution? No. BUT… we DO know that this is the method he chose for us to repent and seek forgiveness. Confessing directly to God is actually disobeying Him in a very real way. This might be done out of pride or misunderstanding (you can take your pick,) but it doesn’t change the fact that you are choosing to seek His forgiveness by YOUR means and not His. I think though, if you do not understand this… being disobedient out of ignorance may have its merits, but I would be careful if I were you. This is the TRUTH my friend – please do not ignore it or push it aside because it may seem difficult or problematic. You deserve to have all the gifts He has given you. Please learn more about this one! I highly recommend the book “Lord Have Mercy” by Scott Hahn – it’s about Confession… please give it a try.

We are talking of the different CHRISTIAN denominations. And their message remains the same. That JESUS IS LORD AND HAS CLEANSED US OF OUR SINS. So it is plain and simple. And the message has not changed. As I have stated in an earlier post there are a lot of very big things that have changed in the catholic belief system regarding Mary and other important issues. So you can’t say the church hasn’t changed its mind on a few things.

Whose message remains the same? Protestants are free to change their message as often as they feel necessary, and many do. Some change much less than others, but some change every time they hire or take on a new pastor – but there are many reasons I suppose. But, yes… overall, their message has MOST CERTAINLY been changed. I agree that many confessing “Christian” churches will rightfully profess that “Jesus is Lord” as you have said… but not ALL! And this is what I was referring to when I mentioned the simple teachings. There are many other teachings… all a part of the Sacred Tradition we received from God and His Apostles… that have been altered or denied outright. This is more common in the Protestant traditions (or denominations) that are further from their Catholic roots, they have changed or rejected more of these essential teachings than others.

As far as the Church changing its mind thing… I’d like to suggest a book for understanding the basics of the “whys” and “hows” of the Church. “Why Do Catholics Do That?” by Kevin Orlin Johnson.
To respond though… you are simply in misunderstanding. The Church does not “change its mind” in the manner you suggest. There is a very large difference between discipline and doctrine… but understanding the difference can sometimes be difficult.

If there is ANY chance you might pick up one of the titles I’ve suggested… please try the second. “Why Do Catholics Do That?” is well written, entertaining, it covers a lot of ground, and will give you a ‘basic’ understanding of… the basics! lol But, make no mistake… it may be a “basic” sort of book… it is NOT a book for dummies! It can definitely be challenging and it’s a very informative read.

Please know Singinbeauty, I am not praying for your “conversion” either… I believe you ARE a Christian, if you became Catholic… it would not be a conversion - as you already belong to Him! But, I have prayed that you will come home! I pray this for all separated Christians, but I have prayed for YOU in a special way! Truly. That you are strong… I have no doubts; one can feel it in your words. This strength and your faith in Christ… is why I know your heart will turn.

I’m very sorry for the lengthy post! I’m not very good at explaining things sometimes… so I often give too much detail! Keep doing what you’re doing my friend! Thank you! And bless you, bless you, bless you!

May the Lord be with you!

Jason

 

[Peace_Seeker_1]

Another job well done on that explanation of Confession, Jason! I swear, Jesus should have a big award for you for such stellar posts!

Singinbeauty, you are definitely one of the Lord’s children, and it shows! Maybe you won’t convert, but either way, you sure are a devout Christian. I’ll pray for you!

If a Non-Denom could answer my question about the Bible I posted earlier, it’d be much appreciated!

• Peace

 

[Singinbeauty]

There are a couple of things I wanted to address… I am on my way out the door…

jasonb82abn:

Whose message remains the same? Protestants are free to change their message as often as they feel necessary, and many do. Some change much less than others, but some change every time they hire or take on a new pastor – but there are many reasons I suppose. But, yes… overall, their message has MOST CERTAINLY been changed.

One question… Why do you say that protestant churches are free to change their message? I have not seen that. We are not free to change the message that Jesus is Lord of all and that He died and rose again for the cleansing of our sins. What message has changed that you have seen?

I agree that many confessing “Christian” churches will rightfully profess that “Jesus is Lord” as you have said… but not ALL! And this is what I was referring to when I mentioned the simple teachings. There are many other teachings… all a part of the Sacred Tradition we received from God and His Apostles… that have been altered or denied outright. This is more common in the Protestant traditions (or denominations) that are further from their Catholic roots, they have changed or rejected more of these essential teachings than others.

This is one thing that makes me giggle… HOW CAN A CHURCH BE CALLED CHRISTIAN IF IT DOESN’T FOLLOW CHRIST AND BELIEVE THAT HE IS THE SON OF GOD??? If they don’t profess that Jesus is Lord then they aren’t christian because the very definition of ‘christian’ is the person or group follows Christ. So any that profess Jesus is Lord IS christian and their message remains the same… JESUS IS LORD OF ALL. As for other traditions that we don’t practice… I am still on the search as to WHY the catholics do what they do so I may pick up that book. But killing innocent people because they don’t agree or they challenge the thought process, molesting children, and lying to the congregation just isn’t something I want to be part of. Protestant or Catholic. I am CHRISTIAN. And that is all I put claim to.

 

[forthright]

Singinbeauty:

One question… Why do you say that protestant churches are free to change their message? I have not seen that. We are not free to change the message that Jesus is Lord of all and that He died and rose again for the cleansing of our sins. What message has changed that you have seen?

How many protestant churches allow divorce and remarriage? It’s something Jesus specifically said is forbidden, but practically every protestant church has changed this teaching.

 

[Sherlock]

Singinbeauty:

There are a couple of things I wanted to address… I am on my way out the door…

One question… Why do you say that protestant churches are free to change their message? I have not seen that. We are not free to change the message that Jesus is Lord of all and that He died and rose again for the cleansing of our sins. What message has changed that you have seen?

This is one thing that makes me giggle… HOW CAN A CHURCH BE CALLED CHRISTIAN IF IT DOESN’T FOLLOW CHRIST AND BELIEVE THAT HE IS THE SON OF GOD??? If they don’t profess that Jesus is Lord then they aren’t christian because the very definition of ‘christian’ is the person or group follows Christ. So any that profess Jesus is Lord IS christian and their message remains the same… JESUS IS LORD OF ALL. As for other traditions that we don’t practice… I am still on the search as to WHY the catholics do what they do so I may pick up that book. But killing innocent people because they don’t agree or they challenge the thought process, molesting children, and lying to the congregation just isn’t something I want to be part of. Protestant or Catholic. I am CHRISTIAN. And that is all I put claim to.

Protestant churches changed Jesus’ teaching on the Eucharist, reducing it (in most cases) to a mere symbol. Some Protestant churches do not think it necessary to go to services, despite the teaching of Scripture from both the Old and New Testaments (see Hebrews 10:25)—that’s a change. Episcopalians have decided, in effect, that active homosexuality is OK by ordaining to the office of bishop one who was openly gay—that isn’t a change!!! I could mention more.

As for your statement, “But killing innocent people because they don’t agree or they challenge the thought process, molesting children, and lying to the congregation just isn’t something I want to be part of.”—Guess what? You’re a part of the human race. You ARE a part of it, whether you like it or not, and NO religion (or government, for that matter) has ever been free from the human sins you mention. What you are saying is so incredibly prideful: in essence, you’re saying that the human race doesn’t measure up to YOUR standards. I guess you have declared your sainthood!

 

[Peace_Seeker_1]

quote=Sherlock

As for your statement, “But killing innocent people because they don’t agree or they challenge the thought process, molesting children, and lying to the congregation just isn’t something I want to be part of.”—Guess what? You’re a part of the human race. You ARE a part of it, whether you like it or not, and NO religion (or government, for that matter) has ever been free from the human sins you mention. What you are saying is so incredibly prideful: in essence, you’re saying that the human race doesn’t measure up to YOUR standards. I guess you have declared your sainthood!
[/quote]

How correct! The church doesn’t TEACH people to sin, but to go away from it - it does teach, however, that all humans are sinners. You’ll find this in any church, school, organization, home, or any other place you’ll go! The Church does not teach to badly sin, but to try and avoid it.

• Peace

 

[Singinbeauty]

Sherlock:

Protestant churches changed Jesus’ teaching on the Eucharist, reducing it (in most cases) to a mere symbol. Some Protestant churches do not think it necessary to go to services, despite the teaching of Scripture from both the Old and New Testaments (see Hebrews 10:25)—that’s a change. Episcopalians have decided, in effect, that active homosexuality is OK by ordaining to the office of bishop one who was openly gay—that isn’t a change!!! I could mention more.

As for the Eucharist, the jury is still out on that one for me. Growing up I never knew that the catholic church saw it as it being Jesus Himself. I always thought of it being a symbolic act. With the others you mentioned… Going to church… Not every protestant church believes that you can blow off going every Sunday. So you can’t just say that EVERY protestant church believes this. And the homosexuality thing, that isn’t my church so again, you can’t lump ALL protestants in that group. That is the problem with trying to put such a diverse group in one category and then make general statements. You end up lumping churches in there that don’t belong.

Sherlock:

As for your statement, “But killing innocent people because they don’t agree or they challenge the thought process, molesting children, and lying to the congregation just isn’t something I want to be part of.”—Guess what? You’re a part of the human race. You ARE a part of it, whether you like it or not, and NO religion (or government, for that matter) has ever been free from the human sins you mention. What you are saying is so incredibly prideful: in essence, you’re saying that the human race doesn’t measure up to YOUR standards. I guess you have declared your sainthood!

It may sound prideful but that is not how I meant it. I don’t think God would want to be a part of a church that kills innocent people or molests children or even lying to it’s congregation. Yes, we are all human and God loves us all. This is why I am not God. hehe. And also why I am not in child services. If I ran into anyone that harmed children, priest/preacher or not, they had better hope the police get to them before I do because they are vile creatures not fit to be called humans. It doesn’t happen in every church. I haven’t given up on church because of these things. But if I saw it happening from a preacher I trusted I would have to turn and leave and go to another church, maybe not another denomination, but another church.

And so yes, the human race does NOT meet my standards. I do not even meet my own standards, which really frustrates me to no end sometimes. Nor does the human race meet God’s. Why do you think we needed Jesus’ sacrifice? This is why I turn my eyes on Christ and not a human being because we are corrupt and sinful and sometimes will put ourselves before God.

*As a side note… I was molested as a child so I know what I am talking about when I say they are vile creatures unfit for the human race title. If you want to refute it, go ahead but it is a lost debate with me.

 

[Singinbeauty]

forthright:

How many protestant churches allow divorce and remarriage? It’s something Jesus specifically said is forbidden, but practically every protestant church has changed this teaching.

But do ALL of them allow it??? And where did Jesus talk about divorce and remarriage… Wasn’t that Peter who spoke of it?

 

[BlackKnight]

Don’t you guys think that this horse has about been beat to death?

Non-denoms are churches, just like all the rest.

I don’t think that this thread is really going anywhere useful, so I’m not gonna get all into it, except to say that we need to quit beating on old dead horses and maybe pray together.

Any other discussions should be with a view towards better understanding of why each of us believes what we believe…maybe there is hope that the Holy Spirit will help us become one in Christ.

 

[scylla]

If you would like Singing, I suggest you read Catholicism for Dummies, I don’t think you are a dummy, that is just the title.
This would explain our views better. If you are not able to purchase it I would be happy to send you a copy just let me know. You will see that Catholics are not taught to kill people or molest people those are the people doing things against Catholic teaching, which is common as people in all churches sin.
Or I would start reading early Christian writings, I believe they are Catholic too and that will show you the mindset of Catholics from then and now as the faith is the same.

This subject has been beat to death, we all know there is no such thing as nondenominational unless you accept all teachings as valid, since then it just becomes personal interpretation of the Bible and a belief in Christ as a standard.
Even then it can be split up to different beliefs as some have varying beliefs of Christ and the Bible.

I know many people who wouldn’t go to a Southern Baptist Church yet join a nondenominational that believe pretty much the same thing but now just call themselves Christians. Kinda like saying I am not male or female, I am just a person.

 

[Little_Mary]

Little Mary:

Even the bible tells us that we need guidance when it comes to Scripture. Remember Phillip and the eunich when Phillip asked him if he understood scripture and the eunich answered “How can I unless someone guides me” (paraphrased). This eunich was a well educated man but he knew that he would need help accurately interpreting scripture. Did Phillip say “Oh that’s OK just pray to the Holy Spirit and you’ll be OK”? NOOoOo, he got up in the chariot with the man and began to teach.

Even Jesus prayed to the Father that we “be one as They are one” - do you really think that the first two persons of the trinity are disagreeing on whether baptism is symbolic or not? or whether sola scriptura is right or not? Do you think the Father and the Son disagree on doctrine? Of course not.

That Catholic church has not changed in 2000 years. It holds, and will continue to hold to the teachings of Christ. It will not change under pressure from “normal humans”.

If each person individually interprets scripture claiming that they are guided by the Holy Spirit then why do so many (thousands) of different interpretations result? Is the Holy Spirit that fickle?
Schizophrenic?

If it is OK to have all of these different denominations (even NON denominational, because they themselves each have their own belief system) then one of two things MUST be true:

It’s either 1) Doctrine does not matter or 2) it’s OK to have conflicting doctrines.

Are you ignoring the ones you can’t answer?

 

[forthright]

Singinbeauty:

It may sound prideful but that is not how I meant it. I don’t think God would want to be a part of a church that kills innocent people or molests children or even lying to it’s congregation.

When your church has been around 2000 years and has more than 1 billion members, see if there aren’t a few bad apples. You keep confusing the actions of individuals with the teaching of the Church itself.

 

[forthright]

Singinbeauty:

But do ALL of them allow it??? And where did Jesus talk about divorce and remarriage… Wasn’t that Peter who spoke of it?

Luke 16:18 - Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and the one who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery.

Mark 10:2-12 - The Pharisees approached and asked, “Is it lawful for a husband to divorce his wife?” They were testing him. He said to them in reply, “What did Moses command you?” They replied, “Moses permitted him to write a bill of divorce and dismiss her.” But Jesus told them, “Because of the hardness of your hearts he wrote you this commandment. But from the beginning of creation, ‘God made them male and female. For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother (and be joined to his wife), and the two shall become one flesh.’ So they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, no human being must separate.” In the house the disciples again questioned him about this. He said to them, “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her; and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery.”

Matthew 19:3-9 - Some Pharisees approached him, and tested him, saying, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any cause whatever?” He said in reply, “Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female’ and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has joined together, no human being must separate.” They said to him, “Then why did Moses command that the man give the woman a bill of divorce and dismiss (her)?” He said to them, “Because of the hardness of your hearts Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. I say to you, whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) and marries another commits adultery.”

Matthew 5:31-32 - It was also said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife must give her a bill of divorce.’ But I say to you, whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) causes her to commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Jesus identifies those who divorce and remarry as adulterers. Couple Jesus’ words with 1 Cor 6:9 and Heb 13:4 - you will see that adulterers will not be allowed into the Kingdom of Heaven. Therefore, if your church teaches that someone can be divorced and remarried and it’s not a mortal sin (i.e. keeps them from entering heaven if left unrepented), then your church is directly rejecting the words of Jesus.

 

[NonDenom]

forthright:

When your church has been around 2000 years and has more than 1 billion members, see if there aren’t a few bad apples.

You keep confusing the actions of individuals with the teaching of the Church itself.

Hi
There is no confusion when the individuals I’m talking about are the ones doing the teaching, you can’t seperate them, although
I can see why you would want to.
Thanks