Non-Denom a denomination?

[Loboto-Me]

If you read the catechism you’d know what the teachings are. You need to figure out how the Church works before saying such things. Rather than keep your old ideas about the Church, why don’t you learn about the workings of it through CAF. Someone just finished telling you that teachings and individual actions are different… and guess what? They are… even if a Bishop taught something that was off the wall… that would NOT be a teaching of the Church.

You see? Catholics don’t have to count on what the clergy says, unlike some denominations, they have a book of guidelines to fall on when an “authority figure” sounds like he or she’s “off-base”.

 

[forthright]

NonDenom:

Hi
There is no confusion when the individuals I’m talking about are the ones doing the teaching, you can’t seperate them, although
I can see why you would want to.
Thanks

Lets make a correlation here. . . Let’s take an independant church where the pastor is the ultimate authority on what is to be taught. The pastor teaches that Christ’s resurrection was a physical event - that his resurrected body was real and not a spirit or an illusion. Now, suppose that the youth minister tells the junior high kids that the resurrection really didn’t happen that way. Are we to consider that an official teaching of that church? Of course not. The teaching of the youth minister does not represent the official teaching of the whole church.

Now, when you’re talking about a world-wide church like the Catholic Church, the scale gets increased. An individual priest may teach heresy - there is no guarantee of infallibility for a priest (or even a bishop, for that matter). You cannot take the teachings/actions of an individual as official church teaching. The Church proper is much, much more than just the local parish or priest. If you’re going to attack Catholicism, you need to demonstrate where the Pope, Magesterium, or a Counsel officially taught these things you’re decrying.

 

[NonDenom]

Loboto-Me:

If you read the catechism you’d know what the teachings are. You need to figure out how the Church works before saying such things. Rather than keep your old ideas about the Church, why don’t you learn about the workings of it through CAF. Someone just finished telling you that teachings and individual actions are different… and guess what? They are… even if a Bishop taught something that was off the wall… that would NOT be a teaching of the Church.

You see? Catholics don’t have to count on what the clergy says, unlike some denominations, they have a book of guidelines to fall on when an “authority figure” sounds like he or she’s “off-base”.

Hi
We also have a book of guidelines, the Bible.
Thanks.

 

[Sherlock]

NonDenom:

Hi
We also have a book of guidelines, the Bible.
Thanks.

Then how come different denominations and non-denoms keep coming up with different ideas as to what those guidelines mean? In my Protestant years, I got all kinds of differing interpretations. Non-denoms are no different.

 

[NonDenom]

Lets make a correlation here. . . Let’s take an independant church where the pastor is the ultimate authority on what is to be taught.

Hi
The word of God is the ultimate authority in our church.

The pastor teaches that Christ’s resurrection was a physical event - that his resurrected body was real and not a spirit or an illusion. Now, suppose that the youth minister tells the junior high kids that the resurrection really didn’t happen that way. Are we to consider that an official teaching of that church? Of course not. The teaching of the youth minister does not represent the official

teaching of the whole church.

This is why it is so important for us to stick to the word of God and not the everchanging way’s of men. I am the youth leader at our church, the Minister and myself get together all the time and discuss what is being taught.
Thanks.

 

[Loboto-Me]

You still haven’t answered the question… why is it that the Bible is teaching you one thing, and another member of your church something else?

So you count on your pastors authority and his version of what the gospel is saying? How do you handle today’s issues such as abortion (that’s not a biblical issue), what about other modern issues that aren’t in the scriptures?

 

[Orionthehunter]

NonDenom:

Hi
The word of God is the ultimate authority in our church.

This is why it is so important for us to stick to the word of God and not the everchanging way’s of men. I am the youth leader at our church, the Minister and myself get together all the time and discuss what is being taught.
Thanks.

You seem to be an intelligent person but then you don’t see the fallacy of this statement. I think you would concede that there are ministers who disagree among themselves. What happens when you and your minister disagree on an interpretation? Or do you just concede because of his superior education?

Please ponder his limited education. The Catholic Church doesn’t depend on the current education of this Pope for the right interpretation but the diligent poking and prodding of 2000 years of the smartest theologians over this time. This poking and prodding has resulted in a consistency of thought that gives great credence that the Church’s interpretation is guided by the Holy Spirit, the source of all Truth, including the Bible.

Your line of thought has to deal with the undeniable fact that there are 40,000 different denominations all subject to different interpretations. How can you reasonably assert that all of them are from the Holy Spirit? What make you think that the interpretations by someone as limited as you and your Pastor are infallible? Keep in mind the warning of 2 Peter in Chapter 3:

And consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, as our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, also wrote to you, speaking of these things as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures. Therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, be on your guard not to be led into the error of the unprincipled and to fall from your own stability. But grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory now and to the day of eternity. (Amen.)

And consider the above in this light:

1. The Primacy of Peter was clear even prior to the passion of Christ. He referred to Peter directly several times more than He referred to all other Apostles combined. The Primacy of Peter and all his authority continued after the Assumption.
2. The Apostles began saying Mass and consecrating the Eucharist before the Bible was written.
3. The concept of Apostolic Succession and the Magisterium existed before the Bible was written.
4. It was the authority of the Church and Magisterium (that you reject) that made the decision on what books are Scripture. How can you accept their wisdom here as being inspired by the Holy Spirit but reject nearly everything else as being in error.
5. Why do all denominations and individual churches so lightly dismiss the “sins bound on earth will be bound in heaven and those loosed on earth will be loosed in heaven”. Doesn’t this imply clearly that Jesus intended to give certain powers to the Church? Doesn’t this fly in the face of the Sola Fide argument?
6. Why was so much of Paul’s ministry related to correcting the people misinterpreting the Bible? If we were to be tolerant of “private interpretations”, wouldn’t Paul have been so?

 

[forthright]

NonDenom:

The word of God is the ultimate authority in our church.

Funny - Jesus, the true Word of God, is our ultimate authority, not some book (no matter how precious) that can be twisted an manipulated and misinterpreted.

 

[JaneFrances]

NonDenom:

Hi
There is no confusion when the individuals I’m talking about are the ones doing the teaching, you can’t seperate them, although
I can see why you would want to.
Thanks

Please consider that no denomination or church has human teachers/preachers/pastors/ministers who adhere perfectly in word and deed to the teachings of Jesus Christ. However, I think you would be hard pressed to find any Christian teacher/preacher/pastor/minister who acts sinfully (even greviously, i.e., adultery, child molestation, lying, murder, etc.) actually “teaching” that these things are acceptable and official “teachings” of the his/her denomination or church.

So, while it may be difficult for you separate those in positions of teaching authority from their actions, that is exactly what Jesus Christ has called us to do.

“Then Jesus told the crowds and his disciples: 'The scribes and Pharisees have succeeded Moses as teachers; therefore, do everything and observe eveything they tell you. But do not follow their example.” (Matthew 23:1-3)

 

[Sherlock]

Singinbeauty:

As for the Eucharist, the jury is still out on that one for me.

Me, me, me, me… Look, the jury reached a decision 2000 years ago. It’s time to study the case history.

Singinbeauty:

Growing up I never knew that the catholic church saw it as it being Jesus Himself. I always thought of it being a symbolic act.

Well, that decides it then! Who cares what the Early Church, followers of the Apostles, or St. Paul himself think?

Singinbeauty:

With the others you mentioned… Going to church… Not every protestant church believes that you can blow off going every Sunday. So you can’t just say that EVERY protestant church believes this.

You have a way of attacking straw-men. I never said that ALL Protestant churches believe that.

Singinbeauty:

And the homosexuality thing, that isn’t my church so again, you can’t lump ALL protestants in that group.

Oh, for NOW your church may not go for “the homosexuality thing”. But down the road…why not? Lots of Protestant denominations have changed their mind, why not your church? After all, they’re using the same guide as you—the Bible, with the Holy Spirit telling all of you that whatever you come up with is A-OK, even if it makes for contradicting “truths”. I guess I have more respect for the Holy Spirit to think that it’s OK that all sorts of conflicting doctrines have been given His stamp of approval. Sounds like human rationalization to me. St. Paul didn’t have much patience for relativism: much of his writing consists of telling people what to believe and how to act. He sent Timothy to stop people from spreading their own versions of “truth”, saying their “truth” was false. I’m sure he was met with responses similar to yours: “I am glad that I don’t let anyone tell me how my relationship with God SHOULD be because I get all my directions from Him. HE guides me, not some normal human.”

Singinbeauty:

It may sound prideful but that is not how I meant it. I don’t think God would want to be a part of a church that kills innocent people or molests children or even lying to it’s congregation.

What makes you think that God doesn’t use flawed human beings? Jesus chose Judas, after all. Your idea of what God thinks is in conflict with what God does, as revealed in Scripture.

Singinbeauty:

Yes, we are all human and God loves us all. This is why I am not God. hehe. And also why I am not in child services. If I ran into anyone that harmed children, priest/preacher or not, they had better hope the police get to them before I do because they are vile creatures not fit to be called humans.

I’m thankful that you’re not God. He is far, far more merciful than you. He never decides that we are “vile creatures not fit to be called humans”, but loves us even when we are unlovable. Me, I try to leave the judging of who and who is not “fit to be called human” to Him. Guess you know more than He, eh?

Singinbeauty:

It doesn’t happen in every church. I haven’t given up on church because of these things. But if I saw it happening from a preacher I trusted I would have to turn and leave and go to another church, maybe not another denomination, but another church.

Then be prepared to constantly be disappointed, and always on the run. The human race is flawed, and that goes for any collection of humans, despite what you think. This tells me that your faith is ultimately dependent upon man, not God: if man disappoints, then THAT man’s faith isn’t good enough for you. Are you omniscient? Do you REALLY know EVERY sin that the members of your church do and do not commit? Are you privy to their bedrooms; their workplaces; their inner thoughts? My best friend’s daughter was molested by an Evangelical minister, but it never made the news and the rest of the congregation didn’t know a thing (and still don’t, to this day). And do you carry this into other areas? I mean, the rate of sex abuse in public schools is about the same (actually, slightly higher) as has been alleged against Catholic priests—are you going to keep your kids out of school?

Singinbeauty:

And so yes, the human race does NOT meet my standards…

My, how convenient for you—don’t have to waste your time being merciful and loving. Just look in the mirror and admire your holiness.

Singinbeauty:

*As a side note… I was molested as a child so I know what I am talking about when I say they are vile creatures unfit for the human race title. If you want to refute it, go ahead but it is a lost debate with me.

You aren’t God, but you are called to be like Him. That includes having mercy on vile creatures. If you are unwilling to even try that (and it’s God you’ll be having that debate with, not me), then you might want to give yourself a new title instead of “Christian”—“Most Holy Perfect All-Knowing Goddess” comes to mind…

 

[Mickey]

Singinbeauty:

I was molested as a child so I know what I am talking about when I say they are vile creatures unfit for the human race title. If you want to refute it, go ahead but it is a lost debate with me.

"Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us".

This means that our Father will forgive us our sins to the extent that we forgive those who have sinned against us. I hope you have forgiven the offender, Singinbeauty. It is very healing and it is what God expects of us. Of course it is not always easy to forgive others, and yours is an especially difficult cross to carry. Peace to you.

Blessings,
Mickey

 

[Little_Mary]

NonDenom:

Hi
The word of God is the ultimate authority in our church.

.
Thanks.

Hi
The word of God is the ultimate authority in our church, too. And we’ve upheld and protected it for over 2000 years now.
Thanks

 

[Singinbeauty]

Sherlock:

Me, me, me, me… Look, the jury reached a decision 2000 years ago. It’s time to study the case history.

Well, that decides it then! Who cares what the Early Church, followers of the Apostles, or St. Paul himself think?

It’s hard to change something that you have believed all your life and never knew that there was another view out there in the world. I am not saying it isn’t so but I am saying that this will take some time getting used to and changing my mind on. Do you just believe everything you hear because someone says it’s so? That’s the point I am at. I am not refuting it I am just being honest that this is something I am looking into because it is new information to me.

sherlock:

You have a way of attacking straw-men. I never said that ALL Protestant churches believe that.

Ahem…

sherlock:

Protestant churches changed Jesus’ teaching on the Eucharist, reducing it (in most cases) to a mere symbol.

You didn’t say SOME you said Protestant churches… Meaning, at least what I read of it, that ALL did that… That is why I said what I said. If you mean ‘some’ say ‘some’.

sherlock:

Oh, for NOW your church may not go for “the homosexuality thing”. But down the road…why not? Lots of Protestant denominations have changed their mind, why not your church? After all, they’re using the same guide as you—the Bible, with the Holy Spirit telling all of you that whatever you come up with is A-OK, even if it makes for contradicting “truths”. I guess I have more respect for the Holy Spirit to think that it’s OK that all sorts of conflicting doctrines have been given His stamp of approval. Sounds like human rationalization to me. St. Paul didn’t have much patience for relativism: much of his writing consists of telling people what to believe and how to act. He sent Timothy to stop people from spreading their own versions of “truth”, saying their “truth” was false. I’m sure he was met with responses similar to yours: “I am glad that I don’t let anyone tell me how my relationship with God SHOULD be because I get all my directions from Him. HE guides me, not some normal human.”

Why shouldn’t my church do the same? Why shouldn’t ALL your priests molest children??? What’s stopping them from doing it because a few decided to do it??? Because it’s wrong. Just because one does it doesn’t mean they all do it.

sherlock:

What makes you think that God doesn’t use flawed human beings? Jesus chose Judas, after all. Your idea of what God thinks is in conflict with what God does, as revealed in Scripture.

He definitely uses flawed humans to do wonderful and awesome things. I am not saying that God does not use flawed humans. I am not saying that God does not love flawed humans. But I am saying that we don’t meet His standards. If we did, we wouldn’t have needed Jesus’ sacrifice.

sherlock:

I’m thankful that you’re not God. He is far, far more merciful than you. He never decides that we are “vile creatures not fit to be called humans”, but loves us even when we are unlovable. Me, I try to leave the judging of who and who is not “fit to be called human” to Him. Guess you know more than He, eh?

When you experience what I have experienced… When you have felt what I have felt… When some ‘person’ decides that your body and your feelings aren’t worth jack… Then you can talk to me about my feelings towards those ‘people’ who commit such evil. Yes, God is much more merciful than I am. I admit it fully. I am working on the anger and the hurt that I have grown up with and God is not finished working with me on it.

sherlock:

Then be prepared to constantly be disappointed, and always on the run. The human race is flawed, and that goes for any collection of humans, despite what you think. This tells me that your faith is ultimately dependent upon man, not God: if man disappoints, then THAT man’s faith isn’t good enough for you. Are you omniscient? Do you REALLY know EVERY sin that the members of your church do and do not commit? Are you privy to their bedrooms; their workplaces; their inner thoughts? My best friend’s daughter was molested by an Evangelical minister, but it never made the news and the rest of the congregation didn’t know a thing (and still don’t, to this day). And do you carry this into other areas? I mean, the rate of sex abuse in public schools is about the same (actually, slightly higher) as has been alleged against Catholic priests—are you going to keep your kids out of school?

 

[Singinbeauty]

Throughout my posts I think I have always tried to specify that I am speaking of church LEADERS. Not the members. Those who are in a place of authority are held to a higher standard because of their position in the church. I am sorry for your best friend’s daughter. I know the pain she deals with. And no minister or priest should be able to lead people if they do things like this. I am talking about molestation and/or greed, or things of that nature in sin.

sherlock:

My, how convenient for you—don’t have to waste your time being merciful and loving. Just look in the mirror and admire your holiness.

You failed to quote my next line… I said even I don’t measure up to my standards. I disappoint myself everyday because I know I am disappointing God. I am in no way perfect and I don’t understand where you are coming from saying that I think I am. None of us stack up against God’s standards… Again, we wouldn’t have needed Jesus’ sacrifice if we did.

sherlock:

You aren’t God, but you are called to be like Him. That includes having mercy on vile creatures. If you are unwilling to even try that (and it’s God you’ll be having that debate with, not me), then you might want to give yourself a new title instead of “Christian”—“Most Holy Perfect All-Knowing Goddess” comes to mind…

So now I am not a christian? Again, experience my life and then tell me what you think. Ask anyone here, I am a kind person with lots of love for everyone. BUT there are some people who I have trouble showing God’s love. I try. I really do. But, because I am not perfect, it’s something I am working on.

 

[Singinbeauty]

“Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us”.

This means that our Father will forgive us our sins to the extent that we forgive those who have sinned against us. I hope you have forgiven the offender, Singinbeauty. It is very healing and it is what God expects of us. Of course it is not always easy to forgive others, and yours is an especially difficult cross to carry. Peace to you.

Blessings,
Mickey

This is not something I really want to discuss online. It is a painful part of my life that has scarred me in so many ways they just keep being unearthed as I live my life. I am on my way to forgiving and learning to let go but, as anyone who has experienced this can imagine, it is a long process. When I say that this is a daily struggle please know why. I almost died because of this and other things that Satan has tried to do to me. He tried to tell me I was worth nothing and that no one cared about me. That I was ‘forgettable’. And I have had to rely HEAVILY on God to turn that belief around. So unless you have experienced this, and I truly hope that you haven’t, please don’t talk to me about forgivness. I am on my way and thankfully God won’t give up on me.

 

[Sherlock]

Singinbeauty:

Ahem…
You didn’t say SOME you said Protestant churches… Meaning, at least what I read of it, that ALL did that… That is why I said what I said. If you mean ‘some’ say ‘some’.

Read more carefully, please: you’ll see that I said “in most cases”. That doesn’t mean “in all cases”, now, does it?

 

[Singinbeauty]

Before I go…

sherlock:

Read more carefully, please: you’ll see that I said “in most cases”. That doesn’t mean “in all cases”, now, does it?

THIS is what you choose to respond to??? I guess you didn’t have much to say after I responded last… But it doesn’t matter… I do want to apologize if it has seemed that I was attacking anyone. It is not my intention. I would hope that by now those who frequent these boards know that I am here in love and on a mission of understanding in regards to the catholic faith. With SOME of the responses I have gotten I feel as if I struck a nerve with SOME posters and sincerely apologize.

That being said…

Due to some sensitive emotions coming to the surface I am going to step back from this thread and just lurk for a bit. I always get a bit sensitive when things of my past emerge and it takes a lot out of me. This is when I tend to say things I don’t really mean or want to imply. Thank you all to those who have had kind words for me. I really appreciate it.

And for those who seem to just want to brow beat me until I cry conversion or to just admit that I am stupid and wrong for my beliefs (this is the feeling I get from SOME of the posts on this thread)… You may want to consider a better approach than beating someone over the head for their beliefs. Understand where they are coming from and rationally, with a bit of grace and kindness, tell them your side of the story. Telling them they are self-centered and vain without love in your tone is not of God.

We can only begin to change the world when we can show love and understanding in this world so filled with hurt and anger. Christ is our Lord and we need to learn how to show it.

Thank you again… And feel free to post your answers or comments… I will still be around!

 

[jasonb82abn]

Jmj

Singinbeauty – bless you, bless you, bless you! I’m sure it’s quite a challenge… I can only imagine how difficult much of this can be… I’ve been a Catholic longer than I can remember. Even considering for a MOMENT that He might be calling you home to the Church could be very difficult – like I said, I can only imagine. I will pray that He strengthens you while you search for the truth – so that you may follow Him wherever He leads you!

I think I can relate to your sensitivity when certain issues are talked about – with seemingly little consideration (though I don’t think that the intent of any of the people posting replies to you was to be inconsiderate.) I myself am sensitive about certain things as well (I don’t pretend to have experience with your issues – I can only imagine your pain.) For me… when people discuss war, or taking life, or things like that… I get uncomfortable, impatient, agitated, and sometimes very angry if I think the individuals are taking it all too lightly. I really try hard to keep a level head about it… and try to see where people are coming from. But, I sometimes have difficulty controlling my emotions when I feel people are being careless about issues I’m probably just overly sensitive about.

In any case, it might not mean much… but, I feel for you! I’m sure many of us do. You are in my prayers. I’ve enjoyed reading your posts and getting to know you in these forums - please do stick around!

May the Lord be with you!

Jason

 

[Mickey]

Singinbeauty:

This is not something I really want to discuss online. It is a painful part of my life that has scarred me in so many ways they just keep being unearthed as I live my life. I am on my way to forgiving and learning to let go but, as anyone who has experienced this can imagine, it is a long process. When I say that this is a daily struggle please know why. I almost died because of this and other things that Satan has tried to do to me. He tried to tell me I was worth nothing and that no one cared about me. That I was ‘forgettable’. And I have had to rely HEAVILY on God to turn that belief around. So unless you have experienced this, and I truly hope that you haven’t, please don’t talk to me about forgivness. I am on my way and thankfully God won’t give up on me.

Hi Sb!

I have not personally experienced what you are going through, but someone very, very close to me has, so I can sympathize for you in that way. This person has finally forgiven the offenders and God sent healing to her when the burden of hatred and resentment was lifted. You are correct. It is a very long process and the pain must be continually unearthed for the healing process to begin. You are on the right path by relying **heavily **on God. I will continue to pray for you.

Blessings,
Mickey

 

[Sherlock]

Singinbeauty:

Before I go…

THIS is what you choose to respond to??? I guess you didn’t have much to say after I responded last… But it doesn’t matter… I do want to apologize if it has seemed that I was attacking anyone. It is not my intention. I would hope that by now those who frequent these boards know that I am here in love and on a mission of understanding in regards to the catholic faith. With SOME of the responses I have gotten I feel as if I struck a nerve with SOME posters and sincerely apologize.

That being said…

Due to some sensitive emotions coming to the surface I am going to step back from this thread and just lurk for a bit. I always get a bit sensitive when things of my past emerge and it takes a lot out of me. This is when I tend to say things I don’t really mean or want to imply. Thank you all to those who have had kind words for me. I really appreciate it.

And for those who seem to just want to brow beat me until I cry conversion or to just admit that I am stupid and wrong for my beliefs (this is the feeling I get from SOME of the posts on this thread)… You may want to consider a better approach than beating someone over the head for their beliefs. Understand where they are coming from and rationally, with a bit of grace and kindness, tell them your side of the story. Telling them they are

I responded only to that particular item because I only had five minutes available, and that was an item that I could respond to easily in that time frame. I came here this morning to respond to the rest, and now find that my lack of time means that I don’t have much to say…my, you jump to the worst conclusions!

I’m sorry if I have been testy, but frankly I’m tired of people using the sex scandals as an excuse to dismiss the entire Church. You didn’t address my point about St. Paul’s approach (which is in conflict with your belief that no mere man is going to tell you what to believe), but instead have repeatedly brought up the sins of the Church, as if sin was not going to be found wherever human beings are (and yes, that includes the leadership. What, do people cease being human when they take on leadership positions?). You chide those who, in your words, are telling you that you are “self-centered and vain” without love in their tone—they are “not of God”. My dear SB, just what is “of God” in bashing His Church? It is easier to receive respect when you yourself show it. I will freely admit that I am an impatient person: after repeated attacks on the Church (and no response to questions raised) my impatience shows and it’s hard for me to be kind and loving. (Why, you’d think someone had attacked my mother…)

And yes, I will be responding to your earlier post—when I have time.