Non-denominational Christians

[Syele]

  	 				Girls are raped. Women are forced to have sex whether or not they want it.

When I was raped I wasn’t given an option to ask for a condom. I doubt offering one is a common practice.

 

[jmcrae]

I did not ask you to be my teacher: I did not get a choice. But you have done your best with me. I am not aware of attacking anyone, but speaking with authority, and asking legitimate questions, which is what the Forum is supposed to be about.

Actually, the Forum is about learning the teachings of the Catholic faith. We ask questions about what we don’t know yet, and we share information about what we already do know.

But it is not a place for saying that the Church is wrong about something, or for requiring the Church to follow one’s own personal dictates, rather than its own teachings and traditions - or for trying to make the Church over into one’s own image.

Oh gosh, what is this about ‘humbly receiving teachings’?

It’s what Mother Mary did when she said, “How is this to be, since I know no man?”

She was not challenging or attacking the Angel; she was seeking information.

When she received the information, she didn’t argue, or get up on a soap box to declare pontificately that a virgin birth is physically impossible, or whine and cry about what her parents and fiance would most likely think of this idea - no, not at all. She said, “Be it done unto me according to thy word.”

We, too, are to take the humble attitude of Mary.

And what is this humble jazz please?

A commandment of Jesus Christ to His followers.

So if you do not want to feel defensive, what would you like me to do, other than being humble, gracious and accepting?

What would be so wrong with a “quester” being humble, gracious, and accepting?

How does one who seeks understanding hope to actually gain understanding, without being humble, gracious, and accepting?

 

[Carol_Coombe]

Condoms have been shown to have manufacturing defects (holes) which are large enough for HIV to pass through.

There is no reason for the Church to pass out condoms. This is an absurdity. The Church frankly teaches that sex outside of marriage is sinful and that within marriage, every sexual act must be open to the possibility of procreation. To ask the Church to pass out condoms is to ask it to hypocritically deny its own teaching. I wouldn’t trust an organization that did that.

If you think condoms are the right way to go, then you give them out. Start a foundation or something. But don’t demand that organizations which plainly disagree with your stance do so in spite of their beliefs.

You may have read from my postings how HIV is transmitted unwillingly to many women here. It is hard to get men to wear condoms, but they are doing so increasingly. If you realise that many people, especially women and young children of either sex, get HIV without any perverse behaviour on their part, you might change your attitude. And NGOs have already taken up the challenge of distribution of condoms, while the Church slowly but surely changes its mind - after many have died.

 

[fix]

No, the worst thing to happen is sin–is evil. And EVIL is what Africa’s (and our) problem is–the main evils being sexual evils, as ours are as well. The disease and the deaths are byproducts of the evil; the real evil itself is sexual sin being imposed on one group by another group. And what you’re proposing is to help, not the victims, but the oppressors.

Condoms do not always work. And that is a fact. And so long as you are not treating the root causes for the disease itself, and thinking that you can provide ‘band-aids’ with something that might be effective for this person this day–but not for the next day, or maybe 5 years later, or maybe not for her daughter, or her friend, or the woman in another village–again, all you are doing is reinforcing the conditions that led to this disease in the first place. You aren’t stopping the rapes, you aren’t stopping the poverty, you aren’t stopping all the evil. . .

Well said. Helping to further bad acts is hardly a long term solution. We have made the condom a god.

 

[lak611]

When I was raped I wasn’t given an option to ask for a condom. I doubt offering one is a common practice.

Rape is about violence, not about sex only. When a rapist violates someone, he does not care the least about the victim, so he would not even concern himself with condoms, unless he maybe thought that he could get away with the crime by not leaving any DNA evidence. Because of the nature of the crime of rape, even castration will not rehabilitate a rapist. He will find other ways to commit violence.

 

[Iowa_Mike]

oh dear resorting to this myth?
this has been totally debunked - this sort of misinformation makes the people who peddle look ridiculous in the eyes of the scientific world
very sad

Jack,

This discussion should center on whether the prevention of life is up to man and if it is sinful.
It should not be about the prevention of disease or the effectiveness of various methods of contraception. Whether a condom fails because of holes, misuse, breaking, or whatever…I think you would agree that they are not 100% effective in preventing pregnancy or disease.

For those that think they are 100% effective I think you will find 2-3% of users that would disagree. The Pill isn’t 100% either. Family planning is not 100% either. The only thing that is 100% effective against pregnancy and the transmission of disease is abstinence.

The Church’s position on this matter is crystal clear:

CCC - 2370

“every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible” is intrinsically evil.’

This should be the at the center of the debate.

Iowa Mike

 

[Carol_Coombe]

That they were breaking Church laws already - way bigger ones than the law against condoms. I do hope you have read other postings on HIV fact and fiction.

If they didn’t care about the Church’s teachings about chastity before they got AIDS, why are they up in arms about the Church’s teachings suddenly now? Why obsess about the Church’s teachings about condoms, when they don’t care about the Church’s teachings on chastity? You will have noted that there is a great concern, particularly among some traditional communities, about chastity. In Swaziland, there is a virginity test carried out every year at the King’s command (we don’t all agree that this is the way to go!)

Who is it that didn’t care about the church’s teaching - the men, but most often not the women, who do care. They have been up in arms for over 25 years now, not suddenly now. It is perhaps that the Church is waking up to its responsibilities in a dire situation. No one is obsessing: they are caring about people who are starving and dying. Do you have a problem with sex generally?

If the Church’s teachings on chastity aren’t going to prevent someone from having sex with every prostitute in the brothel, then I don’t understand how the Church’s teachings on condoms is going to stop him from using condoms. You will understand from other postings - so I will not repeat - that we are not talking only about someone ‘having sex with every prostitute in the brothel’ but innocent women and children. We are not talking only ‘him’.

It just seems very double-minded, to me, to say, “Well, I don’t mind breaking the Church’s laws of chastity, but boy, they better change that rule about the condoms, or else I’m going to die of AIDS!! Because, gosh darn it, I wouldn’t want to break the law against condoms!!”

Oh dear Lord.

 

[jmcrae]

Well said. Helping to further bad acts is hardly a long term solution. We have made the condom a god.

Well - someone has. I don’t think it’s us, though.

 

[Iowa_Mike]

About JH and my PM to him, Jack PM’d me and I responded. He decided to post it, and that’s fine with me. I said something similar here:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1993291&postcount=75
He said he was unemployed. I was just restating that fact. I didn’t intend to pass judgment on him. However, inappropriate you thought I was, your response to me was much more viscious than mine.

As far as condom use, teaching against artificial birth control (including condoms) is not based simply on “an arcane interpretation of Scripture” as you say. This is a long-standing teaching of all Christianity. Until the 1930’s, all Christians stood with the CC on this issue. Now the CC stands alone. Yet there are very sound reasons for this Church teaching. If anyone is interested in the reasons behind the Church’s teaching, he/she can read Janet Smith’s article “Contraception, Why Not?” or Pope JP II’s encyclicals Veritatis Splendor or Evangelion Vitae or his book Theology of the Body. Also Pope Paul VI’s encyclical Humanae Vitae. Once again, it’s not my teaching, I’m not making this stuff up. This is the official teaching of the CC.

I realize you see immense suffering in Africa, but the Church is right about what it teaches, so I could never go along with anyone who decided something contrary no matter how honorable their intentions. Mother Teresa would not have handed out condoms–no doubt about that. She did, however, teach the people in Calcutta about NFP, so I don’t think you are entirely correct when you claim “sexual activities were far from their mind.” Mother Teresa just realized what most Catholics realize–to go against the CC is the same as going against Christ Himself.

I know that PopePope Benedict XVI has asked a commission of scientific and theological experts to prepare a document on condom use and AIDS prevention. I don’t believe this report has come out yet, but I doubt the long-standing teaching of the CC will change. This article is from April 2006:
catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0602330.htm

Another point, there is only one CC. Jesus Christ is our head, and Pope Benedict XVI is the only Vicar of Christ (servant of the servant of God) that I know of. The CC certainly has studied and pondered the issue of artificial birth control in its 2000 year existence. I trust the CC infinitely more than popular opinion. And, BTW, I am a health care professional too.

Well, well said.

Iowa Mike

 

[fix]

If a man is forcing a woman to have intercourse wearing a condom would not be a contraceptive act as he would be an unjust aggressor. The real solution is not to get an attacker to wear latex, the solution is to get the attacker to stop attacking or separate him from everyone.

Sweeping cultural changes seem to be needed. That cannot happen if the only god folks worship is a condom.

 

[Syele]

Rape is about violence, not about sex only. When a rapist violates someone, he does not care the least about the victim, so he would not even concern himself with condoms, unless he maybe thought that he could get away with the crime by not leaving any DNA evidence. Because of the nature of the crime of rape, even castration will not rehabilitate a rapist. He will find other ways to commit violence.

exactly.

 

[jmcrae]

Carol;

What needs to happen is that the people need to be educated about chastity.

It takes the same length of time to educate people about chastity as it does to educate them about condoms - and a much larger number of lives will be saved, since chastity not only prevents sexually transmitted diseases, it also prevents divorce and other family disfunctions, meaning that more children get to be raised by both parents to be fully functional adults.

And again, I am still wondering, if the women and children can’t prevent the men from raping them, then how are they going to get them to wear condoms? It’s the person who made the decision to be unchaste (the man) who has to make the decision to wear the condom.

 

[Carol_Coombe]

Your solution to the problem is a condom? That is the panecea? Your own words refute your argument. I see nothing in your post that would change things for the better, in fact, the condom would only increase and further cheapen life. Thanks for reinforcing my understanding of the situation.

You have clearly not read other postings, and have come in in the middle.

In another posting, I suggested, to save young people

The ABC code (refer back)
The use of condoms in dangerous situations inflicted by others (particularly the womens’ condom (refer back)
The range of activities - with regard to both policy and practice - that are possible (written for Bono on his visit to South Africa) including:

Prevention: condoms available, health visits to all upper primary and secondary schools every six months for STD checks and treatment (guaranteed drugs), clean water at every school, school feeding schemes to keep orphans and other disadvantaged children in school, separate boys and girls latrines at every school for security purposes, radical reeducation of all teacher trainers and teachers in HIV, child support, and teaching methods

Social support: identification of children orphaned by HIV or poverty/starvation (Zimbabwe and Zambia eg); referral by teachers to the social services and health departments; training of teachers in child support methodologies; particular attention to the special needs of AIDS orphans who form a completely separate category because keeping children in school has been shown to keep them safe

Management: changing the role of the principal of the school wrt child support, discipline, making the school a safe place for all children and secure for both children and teachers (one third of all rapes of girls under 16 in South Africa are done by their teachers).

I am tired here, but you can get these papers on the internet Google Carol Coombe or Michael J Kelly SJ, or you can send me a PM and I will be glad to send you papers on good practice, national and international policy, local policy, traumatised children, and/or a review of the spread of HIV around the globe and the impact it will have on children and educators. Michael Kelly has done more on the influence or otherwise of the religious community, and I am sure would inform you if you had particular questions about church (RCC or ecumenical) practice in Africa and the Caribbean in particular.

 

[Carol_Coombe]

Your solution to the problem is a condom? That is the panecea? Your own words refute your argument. I see nothing in your post that would change things for the better, in fact, the condom would only increase and further cheapen life. Thanks for reinforcing my understanding of the situation.

You have clearly not read other postings, and have come in in the middle.

In another posting, I suggested, to save young people

The ABC code (refer back)
The use of condoms in dangerous situations inflicted by others (particularly the womens’ condom (refer back)
The range of activities - with regard to both policy and practice - that are possible (written for Bono on his visit to South Africa) including:

Prevention: condoms available, health visits to all upper primary and secondary schools every six months for STD checks and treatment (guaranteed drugs), clean water at every school, school feeding schemes to keep orphans and other disadvantaged children in school, separate boys and girls latrines at every school for security purposes, radical reeducation of all teacher trainers and teachers in HIV, child support, and teaching methods

Social support: identification of children orphaned by HIV or poverty/starvation (Zimbabwe and Zambia eg); referral by teachers to the social services and health departments; training of teachers in child support methodologies; particular attention to the special needs of AIDS orphans who form a completely separate category because keeping children in school has been shown to keep them safe

Management: changing the role of the principal of the school wrt child support, discipline, making the school a safe place for all children and secure for both children and teachers (one third of all rapes of girls under 16 in South Africa are done by their teachers).

I am tired here, but you can get these papers on the internet Google Carol Coombe or Michael J Kelly SJ, or you can send me a PM and I will be glad to send you papers on good practice, national and international policy, local policy, traumatised children, and/or a review of the spread of HIV around the globe and the impact it will have on children and educators. Michael Kelly has done more on the influence or otherwise of the religious community, and I am sure would inform you if you had particular questions about church (RCC or ecumenical) practice in Africa and the Caribbean in particular.

I hope this has improved your knowledge base, and that you will take other opportunities to learn more.

 

[Carol_Coombe]

Your solution to the problem is a condom? That is the panecea? Your own words refute your argument. I see nothing in your post that would change things for the better, in fact, the condom would only increase and further cheapen life. Thanks for reinforcing my understanding of the situation.

You have clearly not read other postings, and have come in in the middle.

In another posting, I suggested, to save young people

The ABC code (refer back)
The use of condoms in dangerous situations inflicted by others (particularly the womens’ condom (refer back)
The range of activities - with regard to both policy and practice - that are possible (written for Bono on his visit to South Africa) including:

Prevention: condoms available, health visits to all upper primary and secondary schools every six months for STD checks and treatment (guaranteed drugs), clean water at every school, school feeding schemes to keep orphans and other disadvantaged children in school, separate boys and girls latrines at every school for security purposes, radical reeducation of all teacher trainers and teachers in HIV, child support, and teaching methods

Social support: identification of children orphaned by HIV or poverty/starvation (Zimbabwe and Zambia eg); referral by teachers to the social services and health departments; training of teachers in child support methodologies; particular attention to the special needs of AIDS orphans who form a completely separate category because keeping children in school has been shown to keep them safe

Management: changing the role of the principal of the school wrt child support, discipline, making the school a safe place for all children and secure for both children and teachers (one third of all rapes of girls under 16 in South Africa are done by their teachers).

I am tired here, but you can get these papers on the internet Google Carol Coombe or Michael J Kelly SJ, or you can send me a PM and I will be glad to send you papers on good practice, national and international policy, local policy, traumatised children, and/or a review of the spread of HIV around the globe and the impact it will have on children and educators. Michael Kelly has done more on the influence or otherwise of the religious community, and I am sure would inform you if you had particular questions about church (RCC or ecumenical) practice in Africa and the Caribbean in particular.

I hope this has improved your knowledge base, and that you will take other opportunities to learn more.

 

[Carol_Coombe]

Carol,

I accept that Africans are suffering…so is India…so China…so is San Francisco…

Your view that the Catholic Church is slowly changing is not accurate. The current teach is the following:

Do you support enthanasia and abortion?

Iowa Mike

Yes, there is terrible suffering everywhere. India, just on HIV, has more people infected in absolute terms than any other country. China has 15 million people infected in Yenan Province alone - because of the use of dirty blood donor equipment (nothing to do with sex at all). There is suffering of all kinds out there. What are you doing about it?

Can you accept the idea that the RCC is not monolithic? That it often, not disregarding the Magisterium and the encyclicals etc, takes carefully considered decisions that are appropriate to context, environment, culture etc. It is sort of like a school in Zimbabwe, which I visited, which insisted that all children wear shoes to school - when the cost of a pair of shoes was more than the annual income of the family. So children were excluded from school - which was against government principles and legislation. The answer of course was not to insist on the wearing of shoes. What to do?

You can I think recognise that contextual decisions are not rare.

If we still have the church we had 2000 years ago, I would be very surprised. It has changed - however slowly - before, and it will change again. Change or die.

Euthanasia and abortion are not on my spiritual agenda - what is left of it - for the moment. I am inclined not to favour either, but have not come to a decision yet. OK for now?

 

[jmcrae]

Abstinence is best,

For all single people, yes.

faithfulness is advisable,

Within marriage. (Sexual relationships outside of lawful marriage are forbidden by the Church.)

and if you are in difficulty get a condom, carry one with you, pick one up for free from many public places - and use it.

What does it mean, “if you are in difficulty”?

If someone is pulling me into a vehicle and taking my pants off, does it mean that I should say, “Hey, wait!! Put on this condom, first!!”

Why can’t I say, “Hey, wait!! I don’t want to do this; please let me go!!”

Because I feel certain that I would get the same reaction in both cases. Don’t you?

(I could also kick and fight and scream and bite and throw up all over the nice upholstery, and make it generally a miserable experience for him to do anything to me; this, I think would be the most effective strategy, in many cases - people need to judge the situation and make their own decision, of course - but I just seriously doubt that a rapist is going to say, “Oh, thank you, yes, I should use a condom, to prevent you from catching my diseases.”)

 

[Carol_Coombe]

How will condoms get them jobs and a good education? Think. Condoms may save them from dying - and that is a good start on getting a good education. There are few jobs: opening up employment opportunities is an economic issue, not one that touches on condoms I think.

If they can’t prevent the men from having sex with them, then how are they going to get him to wear a condom? They can plead. Men are wearing condoms more often. There is a women’s condom.

How will wearing a condom cause these men to learn how to see the women and girls as human beings made in the image and likeness of God? Think. It will not of course. That is the job of schools, churches and parents (if children have parents: those who do not often are amoral). Condoms have nothing to do with this question, as you know.

I know many Africans, by the way; I have foster children in Africa and I participate in a prison ministry in Africa. It’s true that I haven’t met them in person; I have only exchanged letters and parcels with them, but I do not see how they are so different from us that they can’t be educated about chastity, or how methods that the Church has been using for 2,000 years should suddenly, in their case alone, be ineffective.

Read. I did not say that they could not be educated about chastity. I did not say anything about the church being ineffective as a teacher, except that it is silent - in our church - on HIV which is intimately bound up with chastity, as you have recognised.

And in fact I informed you as humbly as I could that chastity is a big issue for traditional communities, and has been for centuries; that there are customary harsh sanctions against out of marriage sex; that there are other recommended forms of sex apart from full intercourse; that the King of Swaziland has an annual test of virginity for all girls in their teens in his country; that there are many grannies still living who can talk about this with their granddaughters - mothers are no allowed to.

There is however, in my own RCC church, no teaching about HIV for the catechism classes, although I know that chastity is a big issue. OK?

 

[fix]

You have clearly not read other postings, and have come in in the middle.

In another posting, I suggested, to save young people

The ABC code (refer back)
The use of condoms in dangerous situations inflicted by others (particularly the womens’ condom (refer back)
The range of activities - with regard to both policy and practice - that are possible (written for Bono on his visit to South Africa) including:

Prevention: condoms available, health visits to all upper primary and secondary schools every six months for STD checks and treatment (guaranteed drugs), clean water at every school, school feeding schemes to keep orphans and other disadvantaged children in school, separate boys and girls latrines at every school for security purposes, radical reeducation of all teacher trainers and teachers in HIV, child support, and teaching methods

Social support: identification of children orphaned by HIV or poverty/starvation (Zimbabwe and Zambia eg); referral by teachers to the social services and health departments; training of teachers in child support methodologies; particular attention to the special needs of AIDS orphans who form a completely separate category because keeping children in school has been shown to keep them safe

Management: changing the role of the principal of the school wrt child support, discipline, making the school a safe place for all children and secure for both children and teachers (one third of all rapes of girls under 16 in South Africa are done by their teachers).

I am tired here, but you can get these papers on the internet Google Carol Coombe or Michael J Kelly SJ, or you can send me a PM and I will be glad to send you papers on good practice, national and international policy, local policy, traumatised children, and/or a review of the spread of HIV around the globe and the impact it will have on children and educators. Michael Kelly has done more on the influence or otherwise of the religious community, and I am sure would inform you if you had particular questions about church (RCC or ecumenical) practice in Africa and the Caribbean in particular.

I hope this has improved your knowledge base, and that you will take other opportunities to learn more.

Carole,

If a female is being attacked and if it is possible to use a condom I would think the Church would say that is not a contraceptive act. It may be a form of self defense.

Such a situation is different from simply passing out condoms as a means to some end. Part of the difficulty in this debate is that the Church understands that the nature of the sexual act is a personal good. It is not a mere instrument to be used anyway we deem fit.

Another part of the problem is that we have a therapeutic mindset and forget that humans are a combination of body and soul.

 

[Carol_Coombe]

That was my next question. The reasoning used in the Africa/condom issue can be used to justify all manner of evil. It is a materialistic and utilitarian view of reality. It is not consistent with the Gospel imperative.

This is an unforced error, as we would say in sport. Life is not evil; giving life is not evil; saving life is not evil. None of these can be used to justify evil. Gospel imperative may be causing people to die or, to put it more strongly, killing them.

What do you suggest as an alternative? I would be glad to know.