Non-denominational Christians

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awantz said:
What are heresies? My Chatholic husband doesn’t even know.
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False teachings that masquerade themselves as “alternative forms” of Christianity.

The most famous ones include Arianism, (which taught that Jesus was only a man), Nestorianism (which taught that Mary was not really Jesus’ mother, but only gave birth to His flesh), Pelagianism (which taught that there is no such thing as Original Sin), Albigensianism (which taught that Christ established no Sacraments), Waldensianism (which taught that Purgatory does not exist and that prayers to the dead are of no avail, and also that Jesus established no clergy or system of authority in the Church), Lutheranism (which taught justification by faith alone without obedience to the laws of God), and Calvinism (which taught that man has no free will, and is predestined either to Hell or to Heaven by God, and will live according to what he has been predestined to), and Modernism, which teaches that external sources of Divine Revelation (being not only man-made, but made by primitive and uncultured men) cannot be trusted, and that all spiritual knowledge comes from within the person’s own soul.
 
jmcrae said:
False teachings that masquerade themselves as “alternative forms” of Christianity.

The most famous ones include Arianism, (which taught that Jesus was only a man), Nestorianism (which taught that Mary was not really Jesus’ mother, but only gave birth to His flesh), Pelagianism (which taught that there is no such thing as Original Sin), Albigensianism (which taught that Christ established no Sacraments), Waldensianism (which taught that Purgatory does not exist and that prayers to the dead are of no avail, and also that Jesus established no clergy or system of authority in the Church), Lutheranism (which taught justification by faith alone without obedience to the laws of God), and Calvinism (which taught that man has no free will, and is predestined either to Hell or to Heaven by God, and will live according to what he has been predestined to), and Modernism, which teaches that external sources of Divine Revelation (being not only man-made, but made by primitive and uncultured men) cannot be trusted, and that all spiritual knowledge comes from within the person’s own soul.
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I hear a lot about fundamentalism on this forum. Is that a heresy as well?
 
Dei_Verbum said:
I hear a lot about fundamentalism on this forum. Is that a heresy as well?
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It’s actually a combo-pak of several different heresies, which is probably why it doesn’t get its own category - I’m looking at Appendix 2 in This is the Faith by Canon Francis Ripley, pages 465-468.
 
StevenFrancis said:
I’m sure there are some here. I believe all the faiths are represented here. Everybody wants to take an anonymous swing at a Catholic, after all. But would it be too much to ask what precisely has led you to this conclusion, other than “listening to what Catholics have to say here”? That’s pretty broad to be basing something so important as your faith on.

Just be fair, and let some of us here have a direct crack at answering some of your own specific interior questions, rather than making a life decision based on a driveby.

Sound reasonable? Speaking for myself, I’ll patiently answer or find you an answer for whatever you would like to ask. I can’t, of course guarantee you’ll like the answer. That’s not what life’s about. But many of here WILL guarantee to find you the truth, or the closest we can come to it, and if it is something with some wiggle room, we’ll let you know that too.

Have you been attacked somewhere along the line at this forum? I find that many who make statements like this have been. Not everybody will do that. You can ignore those who do. Easier said than done, I realize, but anyway…

What has led you to your conclusion?

Thanks and Peace,

Steven
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TY Steven. This is the main place I have to thrash issues out as I don’t know any Catholics outside of the RCIA group and my wife, and I’m basically too chicken to ask controversial questions generally at the RCIA (although I did ask about IVF once) and my wife is a pretty laid-back Catholic who wonders why I get anxious about it all!:confused:
I know now that Traditionalist Catholicism is not for me - anbd that has been the source of confusion, people telling me I must be like them, whereas it doesn’t seem to be the case. That is in no way for lack of commitment or lack of conviction, contrary to what Traditionalists might say. When people say “all or nothing”, “my way or the highway” it tends to make some people go for the highway - and I’m one of the them.
 
Janet_S said:
And, of course, your church is free of the baggage of a messy past. You don’t have to deal with the scandals of the Inquisition, the Crusades, or burning heretics at the stake.

What you have done is establish a pure, untainted church; that is until you do something sinful. Then you can split from yourself, establish a newer, purer church, and start all over again.
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Actually, I’m sort of looking forward to establishing a “newer, purer church,” mainly because I already have the name picked out: “The Church in the Deeper Basement.”
 
jmcrae said:
False teachings that masquerade themselves as “alternative forms” of Christianity.

The most famous ones include Nestorianism (which taught that Mary was not really Jesus’ mother, but only gave birth to His flesh),
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Isn’t that what being a mother is? I mean, does it say that she did not conceive Him, but that He was miraculously created within her womb?
 
jack_hawkins said:
TY Steven. This is the main place I have to thrash issues out as I don’t know any Catholics outside of the RCIA group and my wife, and I’m basically too chicken to ask controversial questions generally at the RCIA (although I did ask about IVF once) and my wife is a pretty laid-back Catholic who wonders why I get anxious about it all!:confused:
I know now that Traditionalist Catholicism is not for me - anbd that has been the source of confusion, people telling me I must be like them, whereas it doesn’t seem to be the case. That is in no way for lack of commitment or lack of conviction, contrary to what Traditionalists might say. When people say “all or nothing”, “my way or the highway” it tends to make some people go for the highway - and I’m one of the them.
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I am a team member in the RCIA ministry. I obviously believe this stuff, or I wouldn’t be doing this. I’m afraid I still don’t understand what the specific issues are which are turning you away. Are you still in RCIA? It sounds like it from your post. Are you preparing to receive your sacraments at this Easter Vigil or next? Are you dropping out? How do they run your RCIA? Do you not feel you have an open dialog with them to discuss your questionings? What is “traditionalist” (to you)? I mean the church is what it is, but there are multiple pathways for imparting the knowledge and understanding. I’m just worried that you’re in an RCIA program with a group which may not be a good fit for your way of processing and discerning information. I’d hate to see that as being a reason for giving up hope on the Church. Have you looked at other parishes? Do you have a sponsor/godparent helping you? Do you have regular discernment interviews? Most importantly, what are the specific ideas of the Church which have you bothered? Perhaps I, or someone else here can help you with those issues. Anyway…God bless you in your journey. Please try many different things before you throw in the towel, and of course, don’t ever burn bridges. Know that the Church has been here for over 2000 years. We’re not going anywhere. You may need to do a little more searching, but you can always come back. You can also take as long as you like in RCIA if that suits you, as well. It’s a journey of joy, sprinkled with a few tears, but well worth the ride.

Peace,

Steven
 
jack_hawkins said:
When people say “all or nothing”, “my way or the highway” it tends to make some people go for the highway - and I’m one of the them.
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If you’re not ready to accept that the Church’s teachings come from God, then you probably do need more time before you become a Catholic.

This isn’t the Catholic Church being some kind of a big meany and keeping you out - this is yourself, being unable to accept the Church’s teachings and give assent to “all that the Church teaches me,” as we say when we are brought into full communion with the Church.

We don’t have to understand all the science, etc. (which is what you seem to be trying to do - that would take an in-depth Theology course; RCIA is simply not set up for that, and neither is CAF, other than being able to provide you with links to various documents) - all we need to know and accept is that the Church teaches what Christ teaches. We are not required to prove every single niggling detail for ourselves - we simply trust the Church, because the Church comes from God.

If you want to get into the science later on, you can certainly do that - the Vatican has many scientists, including medical doctors, who have studied these issues and written extensively about them, and that research is certainly available - but you’re not going to receive that sort of thing in RCIA, or here.
 
StevenFrancis said:
I am a team member in the RCIA ministry. I obviously believe this stuff, or I wouldn’t be doing this. I’m afraid I still don’t understand what the specific issues are which are turning you away. Are you still in RCIA? It sounds like it from your post. Are you preparing to receive your sacraments at this Easter Vigil or next? Are you dropping out? How do they run your RCIA? Do you not feel you have an open dialog with them to discuss your questionings? What is “traditionalist” (to you)? I mean the church is what it is, but there are multiple pathways for imparting the knowledge and understanding. I’m just worried that you’re in an RCIA program with a group which may not be a good fit for your way of processing and discerning information. I’d hate to see that as being a reason for giving up hope on the Church. Have you looked at other parishes? Do you have a sponsor/godparent helping you? Do you have regular discernment interviews? Most importantly, what are the specific ideas of the Church which have you bothered? Perhaps I, or someone else here can help you with those issues. Anyway…God bless you in your journey. Please try many different things before you throw in the towel, and of course, don’t ever burn bridges. Know that the Church has been here for over 2000 years. We’re not going anywhere. You may need to do a little more searching, but you can always come back. You can also take as long as you like in RCIA if that suits you, as well. It’s a journey of joy, sprinkled with a few tears, but well worth the ride.

Peace,

Steven
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The RCIA is a bit rushed really, I guess I should go and see the Curate possibly. In fact last night was very rushed due to unforeseen circumstances. There’s nothing theologically I have a problem with, just the interpretation/ application by some?most Catholics. The specifics are almost all in medical situations which is my profession, and I see people defend things from a background of not understanding the issues and therefore coming to what I consider a wrong conclusion and insisting the medical facts they believe are in fact correct!
Actually I find open dialogue with strict Traditionalist Catholics impossible full stop, at least on my terms anyway.
My wife is my sponsor, which I think probably isn’t the ideal situation.
 
cpayne said:
Actually, I’m sort of looking forward to establishing a “newer, purer church,” mainly because I already have the name picked out: “The Church in the Deeper Basement.”
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what about your foresworn opponents, the Church of the Anti-Christ, “The Church in the Attic”?
 
jack_hawkins said:
The RCIA is a bit rushed really, I guess I should go and see the Curate possibly. In fact last night was very rushed due to unforeseen circumstances. There’s nothing theologically I have a problem with, just the interpretation/ application by some?most Catholics. The specifics are almost all in medical situations which is my profession, and I see people defend things from a background of not understanding the issues and therefore coming to what I consider a wrong conclusion and insisting the medical facts they believe are in fact correct!
Actually I find open dialogue with strict Traditionalist Catholics impossible full stop, at least on my terms anyway.
My wife is my sponsor, which I think probably isn’t the ideal situation.
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In our parish, your wife could not be your sponsor. But I guess that’s one of the things that is variable from place to place, or you two maybe put in a special request for that? Anyway…I don’t know how far along you are, or your level of seriousness, but perhaps you could still get an objective sponsor. I’m not sure what you are after by medical issues either. The only ones I can think of that a Catholic, non-medical professional would offer any teaching or advice about would be medical actions with theological consequences. You know…the big ticket news controversy stuff. (abortion, euthenasia, embryonic stem cells, right to die). If those are the issues, and you are on the non-Catholic side of those issues, then you’re in for a bumpy ride. The Church has perfect theology on each of these things, and isn’t likely to change them, since they’re all grounded in scripture, tradition, and dogma. The root of them all is the teachings of Jesus Christ. The exceptions are very few, and they’re deeply complex. We cover only the basics in RCIA. We’ll try to get answers to some of the really deep stuff for those with a whole list of “but, what if…” scenarios, but at the end of the day, you’re RCIA folks are most likely lay persons. If you have some deep “what if” questions you’d like to toss around, I think you should make an appointment with your parish Priest, or a Religious, if you have a community nearby. Some of them can be remarkably satisfying in their answers to these scenarios. I would also be willing to guide you to the right resources, or answer myself, or both, with your specifics. If your questions or scenarios are a bit private for this forum, you may E-mail me off site. Don’t give up. Keep looking around for the answers to your questions, but once you’ve got the full Church answer, it’still up to do whether you can accept it or not. We obviously hope you can. It may take a lot of prayer, and a lot of meditation to grasp, but the Church’s theology is correct in the end. It bears out, and can withstand scrutiny.

Peace to you, brother
Hang in there,

Steven
 
jack_hawkins said:
The RCIA is a bit rushed really, I guess I should go and see the Curate possibly. In fact last night was very rushed due to unforeseen circumstances. There’s nothing theologically I have a problem with, just the interpretation/ application by some?most Catholics. The specifics are almost all in medical situations which is my profession, and I see people defend things from a background of not understanding the issues and therefore coming to what I consider a wrong conclusion and insisting the medical facts they believe are in fact correct!
Actually I find open dialogue with strict Traditionalist Catholics impossible full stop, at least on my terms anyway.
My wife is my sponsor, which I think probably isn’t the ideal situation.
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Jack, are you defining “traditionalist” Catholics as those people who believe the Church’s teachings? Actually, every Catholic should believe the Church’s teachings since the Church was started by Christ and teaches what is true regarding faith and morals.

Those Catholics who pick and choose only the teachings they want to believe are called “cafeteria” Catholics. These Catholics consider that agreeing and obeying the Church is optional. Obviously they have difficulty with accepting the divine authority of the Church.

“Traditionalist” Catholics are a different story altogether. They generally oppose any change the Catholic Church makes, even concerning disciplinary issues. From what I have heard, Mel Gibson is a traditionalist Catholic. He opposes the post Vatican II changes in the liturgy and attends Latin Mass.

Not all people with a medical background come to the same conclusion that you do about IVF. I am a medical professional myself with degrees in biology and pharmacy, and I agree with the Church. Science itself cannot tell us anything about morality. The Church is certainly aware of all the details of IVF from a scientific point of view. The Church is not naive.
 
Janet, maybe you could explain to me why you think IVF is wrong then? the difficulty is that the people dictating doctrine etc are all celibate and old!
jmcrae - I’m not sure if there’s any doctors in our parish, and it’s too late to change now really:(
 
jack_hawkins said:
Janet, maybe you could explain to me why you think IVF is wrong then? the difficulty is that the people dictating doctrine etc are all celibate and old!
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So, being young and sexually active improves the IQ? Don’t write those guys off - instead of “old” think “experienced,” and instead of “celibate,” think “lots of time for study and reflection.” 😉

And don’t forget - they hear our Confessions, too, so they know every secret that there is to know about being sexually active. 😃
 
the difficulty is that the people dictating doctrine etc are all celibate and old!
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And that has bearing on truth how? 😃

I simply can’t imagine a grown person (and one with so much ‘eddication’ 😃 ) making that type of argument with a straight face. You must be joking. . .

If you feel that truth (doctrine, as you call it) in this or any other case is predicated by the age of the people expounding it, or by their sexual status, you have a pre-existing bias of your own to deal with before you start to complain of a ‘bias’ on the part of others, methinks. . .
 
jack_hawkins said:
Janet, maybe you could explain to me why you think IVF is wrong then? the difficulty is that the people dictating doctrine etc are all celibate and old!
jmcrae - I’m not sure if there’s any doctors in our parish, and it’s too late to change now really:(
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Jack:

Here is an excellent article explaining some reasoning behind the Catholic stance. Please read this, and see if it answers any of your questions.

catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=6018

Here’s a couple of other things as well:

John Paul II Theology of the Body - ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2TBIND.HTM

usccb.org/prolife/issues/ivf/ivftest52187.shtml

catholiceducation.org/articles/sexuality/se0113.html

Hope these help.

Peace,

Steve
 
jack_hawkins said:
Janet, maybe you could explain to me why you think IVF is wrong then? the difficulty is that the people dictating doctrine etc are all celibate and old!
jmcrae - I’m not sure if there’s any doctors in our parish, and it’s too late to change now really:(
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Hi Jack. The basic issue with IVF is that it involves a mindset of “I have a RIGHT to have a child, and I’ll manufacture one if nothing else works.” I am NOT claiming that you in particular think this way, but that certainly many do.

No one has the RIGHT to a natural child. A child is a gift from God. God provides this gift to some, and not to others. Perhaps as an incentive to adopt a child who needs adopted. A child is not a toy. It is holy and sacred, and the way in which we are co-creators with God in the creation of a child is not to be tampered with.

I have a cousin (lesbian) who conceived via IVF so she could have a baby. After all, she has a right to it. And I have a niece who posted pictures of her (non-IVF) baby on the web, with a caption “My new toy.” So I’m not speaking totally from theory here.

My site has a number of articles about IVF.

nochimera.com/ivf_in_vitro_fertilization_eth.html

Most of the articles are quite short and to the point.
 
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