Non-denoms ?? oxymoron??

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Obviously your assertion is untrue. No matter how often you repeat it, the fact that over half here disagree with you shows that your assertion is simply unsupportable.

CDL
Over half of the Protestants here disagree with me? I think not. I said that the term had an agreed-on meaning in American *Protestantism. *It is not a term that Catholics generally use. So Catholics have no business telling Protestants how to use it.

I fail to understand what is at stake for you and others in this debate. When Protestants claim to be “non-denominational” they mean something quite definite, clear, and coherent. I and others have explained repeatedly what this is. No one has even tried to argue against this. Instead, you make up your own meaning based on etymology and try to impose it on everyone else. This is simply silly as well as offensive. Why not let people call themselves what they wish? Next we’ll have Protestants saying that you guys are not really “Catholic” because “Catholic” means universal and there are Christians who are not part of the “Catholic Church.” That would make just as much sense as your argument. (And of course it is exactly what Protestants have done in the past.)

I recall endless threads declaring that the term “Roman Catholic” is offensive because it is not what certain Catholics on this board choose to be called–even though many Catholics use it quite happily. Catholics on this board become very offended if they are not called what they choose to be called, yet they refuse to extend the same courtesy to others. The hypocrisy of this stinks to high heaven.

Edwin
 
Edwin, doesn’t a “no-name church”
“non-denominational” does not mean “no-name.” The local church has a name, but it belongs to no larger organization. It’s very simple, but people on this board with a bigoted agenda are making difficulty out of it.
that does not belong to such an organization as you mentioned, become a new “organization” in the process of not belonging…or “separating”, even if it is just one “local church”??
Sure, but “denomination” is generally used to denote a group to which a number of local churches belong. If you must argue from etymology, it “denominates” a particular local church as belonging to group X rather than group Y. The point of “nondenominationals” is that they belong to no such group. You and I may find this theologically naive and self-defeating, but it is not self-contradicting. It is a coherent understanding of what being a Christian is all about, just as the very different Catholic ecclesiology is. Many Protestants find the Catholic claim to be the Universal Church just as weird and self-contradictory as you find non-denominational Protestantism.

The only way we can have serious dialogue among Christians is if we start by allowing each other to express their views in their own terms, and indeed make a serious effort to understand why people characterize themselves the way they do. Some people on this board have a lot invested in not doing that, it would seem.
:confused: Is it not a “sect of Christianity”?
If you like.
My gosh, we seem to be caught in a vicious loops here:p …really I’m trying my best to understand how it is not or not an oxymoron…
No one has made a serious argument for why it is an oxymoron. To be an oxymoron it would have to be self-contradictory as it is actually used by the people who use it. No one is even arguing this. Rather, they are making the bizarre argument that non-denominational Protestants should not be allowed to come up with a name for themselves. No one has suggested an alternate name, as far as I know. This is simply a form of linguistic imperialism, trying to define a whole group of one’s fellow-Christians out of existence without doing the hard work of making a genuine theological argument against their position. And I don’t care if people call me a post-modernist for saying this!
Be patient everyone, as we are reminded by 2nd Timothy
When irrationality and a lack of charity are combined as they have been on this thread, patience is no longer the appropriate response. Second Timothy is not in fact a very patient book.

Edwin
 
Over half of the Protestants here disagree with me? I think not. I said that the term had an agreed-on meaning in American *Protestantism. *It is not a term that Catholics generally use. So Catholics have no business telling Protestants how to use it.

I fail to understand what is at stake for you and others in this debate. When Protestants claim to be “non-denominational” they mean something quite definite, clear, and coherent. I and others have explained repeatedly what this is. No one has even tried to argue against this. Instead, you make up your own meaning based on etymology and try to impose it on everyone else. This is simply silly as well as offensive. Why not let people call themselves what they wish? Next we’ll have Protestants saying that you guys are not really “Catholic” because “Catholic” means universal and there are Christians who are not part of the “Catholic Church.” That would make just as much sense as your argument. (And of course it is exactly what Protestants have done in the past.)

I recall endless threads declaring that the term “Roman Catholic” is offensive because it is not what certain Catholics on this board choose to be called–even though many Catholics use it quite happily. Catholics on this board become very offended if they are not called what they choose to be called, yet they refuse to extend the same courtesy to others. The hypocrisy of this stinks to high heaven.

Edwin
I agree with you, and I am a Catholic.
 
Over half of the Protestants here disagree with me? I think not. I said that the term had an agreed-on meaning in American *Protestantism. *It is not a term that Catholics generally use. So Catholics have no business telling Protestants how to use it.

I fail to understand what is at stake for you and others in this debate. When Protestants claim to be “non-denominational” they mean something quite definite, clear, and coherent. I and others have explained repeatedly what this is. No one has even tried to argue against this. Instead, you make up your own meaning based on etymology and try to impose it on everyone else. This is simply silly as well as offensive. Why not let people call themselves what they wish? Next we’ll have Protestants saying that you guys are not really “Catholic” because “Catholic” means universal and there are Christians who are not part of the “Catholic Church.” That would make just as much sense as your argument. (And of course it is exactly what Protestants have done in the past.)

I recall endless threads declaring that the term “Roman Catholic” is offensive because it is not what certain Catholics on this board choose to be called–even though many Catholics use it quite happily. Catholics on this board become very offended if they are not called what they choose to be called, yet they refuse to extend the same courtesy to others. The hypocrisy of this stinks to high heaven.

Edwin
Well said Edwin! 👍
 
Over half of the Protestants here disagree with me? I think not. I said that the term had an agreed-on meaning in American *Protestantism. *It is not a term that Catholics generally use. So Catholics have no business telling Protestants how to use it.

I fail to understand what is at stake for you and others in this debate. When Protestants claim to be “non-denominational” they mean something quite definite, clear, and coherent. I and others have explained repeatedly what this is. No one has even tried to argue against this. Instead, you make up your own meaning based on etymology and try to impose it on everyone else. This is simply silly as well as offensive. Why not let people call themselves what they wish? Next we’ll have Protestants saying that you guys are not really “Catholic” because “Catholic” means universal and there are Christians who are not part of the “Catholic Church.” That would make just as much sense as your argument. (And of course it is exactly what Protestants have done in the past.)

I recall endless threads declaring that the term “Roman Catholic” is offensive because it is not what certain Catholics on this board choose to be called–even though many Catholics use it quite happily. Catholics on this board become very offended if they are not called what they choose to be called, yet they refuse to extend the same courtesy to others. The hypocrisy of this stinks to high heaven.

Edwin
There is a simple answer to your comment. Truth is not dependent upon opinion no matter whose opinion it is. It may be cute to play around with language. It may assuage the conscience to make words mean whatever something may wish they meant at any given time but it does nothing for communication. Nor is it worth anyone’s time to even consider it. It is nice to tolerate ignorance of truth but there is no mandate that we be ignorant of truth in order to tolerate opinions that are ignorant of it.

CDL
 
There is a simple answer to your comment. Truth is not dependent upon opinion no matter whose opinion it is. It may be cute to play around with language. It may assuage the conscience to make words mean whatever something may wish they meant at any given time but it does nothing for communication.
So why are you doing it? You guys are the ones redefining the term. You are making it mean something it does not usually mean, because it suits your ideological agenda to do so.

Are you seriously claiming that your definition of the word “denomination” is somehow divinely inspired? Are you seriously claiming that every word as one permanent, divinely sanctioned meaning?

For God’s sake, man, you use language every day. How can you possibly be so deaf to the way language works!

Edwin
 
I agree with you, and I am a Catholic.
I know. This isn’t a Catholic-Protestant thing. It’s just a bee that certain Catholics here have in their bonnets.

I don’t blame them in a sense. Nondenominational Protestants annoy me as well. But they need to be proven wrong by theological arguments, not these silly pseudo-linguistic ones.

Edwin
 
So why are you doing it? You guys are the ones redefining the term. You are making it mean something it does not usually mean, because it suits your ideological agenda to do so.

Are you seriously claiming that your definition of the word “denomination” is somehow divinely inspired? Are you seriously claiming that every word as one permanent, divinely sanctioned meaning?

For God’s sake, man, you use language every day. How can you possibly be so deaf to the way language works!

Edwin
As most modernists do you ignore the very philosophical underpinnings of language that make communication possible. I agree on one level the issue is nonsensicle. No group with any integrity should call itself “non-denominational”. Yet they do.

But beside that, beside their attempts to claim to be all things to all people by being no thing at all, it is impossible to have any discussion with a group that claims to be nothing in particular.

It is an oxymoron but if you choose not to call it that then just go in peace and I will as well. We can’t solve the problems of the world on a bb.

CDL
 
As most modernists do you ignore the very philosophical underpinnings of language that make communication possible.
So explain what “philosophical” underpinning dictates that “denomination” must always mean “any kind of name or designation” and can never have a more specialized meaning. What philosophical underpinning says that one group of people on a message board can define a word to mean something other than what most people use it to mean?

I am calling your bluff. I don’t think you have any valid philosophical basis for your position whatever.

Edwin
 
The point of “nondenominationals” is that they belong to no such group. You and I may find this theologically naive and self-defeating, but it is not self-contradicting.
self-defeating, self-contradicting, self-refuting…aren’t these equivalent??
 
self-defeating, self-contradicting, self-refuting…aren’t these equivalent??
No. Self-contradicting means that there is a logical problem. By “self-defeating” I mean that their self-definition does not do what they want it to do–bring them to a pure form of Christianity that is free from sectarian bias and simply identical with the essence of the Faith as taught in the New Testament. There is nothing self-contradictory about this–it just doesn’t work!

In Christ,

Edwin
 
Edwin, which definition of “denomination” are you using such that “non-denom” is not an oxymoron? Please cite the source, I listed many earlier in this thread:thumbsup: Thanks for the feedback

peace be with you
 
Edwin, which definition of “denomination” are you using such that “non-denom” is not an oxymoron?
I have explained this many times.
Please cite the source, I listed many earlier in this thread:thumbsup:
I did not find those posts. I found a thread in which you cited an unspecified dictionary or dictionaries. General dictionaries are hardly particularly relevant sources for a discussion of a technical religious term–that is at the root of the silliness on this thread. People are saying that because “denomination” can have a general meaning, therefore a more specific meaning is illegitimate. No one would dream of saying this unless they had a serious axe to grind.

However, I’m happy to give you a passage describing a fairly typical scholarly view of denominations. Fortunately I’m married to an expert on American religious history, so she has many relevant books sitting on the shelves. I picked up one book of essays with the promising title *Reimagining Denominationalism, *ed. Robert Bruce Mullin and Russell E. Richey (Oxford, 1994), in the Religion in America series edited by Harry Stout. Richey has an essay on “Denominations and Denominationalism: An American Morphology.”
 
I am quoting from pp. 75-76:
Richey:
Denominationalism presents the denomination as a voluntaristic ecclesial body. It is voluntary and therefore presupposes a condition of legal or de facto toleration and religious freedom–an environment within which it is possible, in fact, willingly to join or not join and that provides “space” to exist alongside or outside of any religious establishment. Th denoination exists in a situation of religious pluralism, typically a pluralism of denominations. It is *ecclesial, *a movement or body understanding itself to be legitimate and self-sufficient, a proper “church” (or religious movement.) It is *a *voluntary church, a body that concedes the authenticity of other churches even as it claims its own. It need not, however, concede that authenticity indiscriminately; it need not, and typically does not, regard all other denominations as orthodox. And it is an ecclesial *body *or form, an organized religious movement, with intentions and the capacity for self-perpetuation, with a sense of itself as located within time and with awareness of its relation to the longer Christian tradition. It knows itself as denominated, as named, as recognized and recognizable, as having boundaries, as possessing adherents, as having a history. In these several regards, the denomination differentiates itself from reform impulses that may take similar structural form but construe themselves as belonging within; fro teh church that does not regard itself as voluntary or as sharing societal space with other legitimate religious bodies; from the sect, which, although also voluntary, does not locate itself easily in time or recognize boundaries or tolerate other bodies or concede their authenticity.

The term denomination and, if Winthrop Hudson is correct, the theory antedate the phenomenon itself. The term was used initially in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries to identify religious postures that could be identified and hence named, such as Arminians. The theory derived from the ecclesiology of the Congregationalists or Independents, a view of the church as institutionalizing itself plurally (and locally) but not in separation or schism, as distinct but not schismatic.

Denominationalism, on the other hand, is a term of more recent vintage, considerably postdating the phenomenon itself. It now functions to describe both denominational theory and the resultant condition or situation of institutionalized division. The accent, particularly in theological and ecumenical hands, tends to fall on the latter part of the definition–“institutionalized division”–and seemingly requires no further comment. While not ignoring division, we will attend here to the condition or situation and its (often implicit) theory. Our argument is that, like democracy or capitalism, denominationalism persists as a complex of theory and practice, of process and form, and has taken very different complexions over its life. Indeed, one feature of denominational complexion has been its relationship with society, commerce, and the state, the “face” that the denominations presented to the culture within which they functioned.

Denominations as we know them may well be breaking up. If so, it need not mean the end to the religious movements now denominated, many of which (for example, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Mennonites, Baptists, Congregationalists) had a predenominational ecclesial existence and have no reason to confuse their essence with its current denominational expression. Denominationalism is a relatively recent phenomenon and may have outlived its usefulness. It may, on the other hand, be simply going through another of its metamorphoses.
Final note: no source beyond non-denominational Christians themselves is needed to show that the term is not an oxymoron. If the term as they are using it is not an oxymoron, then it isn’t an oxymoron. That’s the end of that debate (or should be). Their use of the term may be weird or misleading or even inappropriate, but it’s not self-contradictory if what they mean by it is not self-contradictory. This should be obvious, and if you guys weren’t such a bunch of blind, stubborn ideologues it would be.

However, hopefully hearing what one distinguished historian of American Protestantism (specifically Methodism) has to say will show you that there are a number of ways the term can be defined, and that specialists tend to define it in quite a narrow way that leaves plenty of room for a “non-denominational” form of Christianity (indeed for many alternatives to the denomination).

In Christ,

Edwin
 
I have explained this many times.
Calm down Edwin, be patient with me. Yeah, but I want to see and read the actual source.

This was cited earlier in this thread by a non-denom:merriam-webster.com/dictionary/denomination a religious organization whose congregations are united in their adherence to its beliefs and practices

Is this definition you are using? And if this definition is used…you mean to say its not an oxymoron? What will this denomination mean when you add the “non” prefix to it??
I did not find those posts. I found a thread in which you cited an unspecified dictionary or dictionaries. General dictionaries are hardly particularly relevant sources for a discussion of a technical religious term
Post#18…I listed some definitions from various dictionaries…you mean they are “unspecified”?? What is considered “specified”??
However, I’m happy to give you a passage describing a fairly typical scholarly view of denominations. Fortunately I’m married to an expert on American religious history, so she has many relevant books sitting on the shelves. I picked up one book of essays with the promising title *Reimagining Denominationalism, *ed. Robert Bruce Mullin and Russell E. Richey (Oxford, 1994), in the Religion in America series edited by Harry Stout. Richey has an essay on “Denominations and Denominationalism: An American Morphology.”
Thanks for sharing with everyone,

peace be with you
 
Calm down Edwin, be patient with me. Yeah, but I want to see and read the actual source.

This was cited earlier in this thread by a non-denom:merriam-webster.com/dictionary/denomination a religious organization whose congregations are united in their adherence to its beliefs and practices

Is this definition you are using? And if this definition is used…you mean to say its not an oxymoron? What will this denomination mean when you add the “non” prefix to it??
It won’t be a denomination, obviously! I.e., you will have churches that are not united with other congregations in adherence to the beliefs and practices of some larger organization. The key word is “organization.”

This is not rocket science. A denomination is an organization above the level of the local congregation–at least that is one meaning, and that is the meaning non-denominationalists reject.

And you would do much better looking at works by people who study religion rather than relying on general dictionaries, which are not sensitive to the nuances of religious terminology.

In Christ,

Edwin
 
Edwin,

For what it’s worth I’m not convinced that your position holds any water. Yet, in America, we can all try to force language to mean whatever we wish it to mean. I just don’t have to agree with that mostly political position.

CDL
 
It won’t be a denomination, obviously! I.e., you will have churches that are not united with other congregations in adherence to the beliefs and practices of some larger organization. The key word is “organization.”

This is not rocket science. A denomination is an organization above the level of the local congregation–at least that is one meaning, and that is the meaning non-denominationalists reject.

And you would do much better looking at works by people who study religion rather than relying on general dictionaries, which are not sensitive to the nuances of religious terminology.

In Christ,

Edwin
This is good, stick with me Edwin. You’ve made some good points.

Ok so let us use this definition and lets take a closer look…also use some logic…and you’ve sort of done this in your previous post, but added “some larger organization”…which is not in the definition.

Denomination: a religious organization whose congregations are united in their adherence to its beliefs and practices

Non-Denomination:a religious organization whose congregations are NOT united in their adherence to its beliefs and practices

The “non” prefix negates the declarative statement. But notice a “non-denom” is still a religious organization who has “congregations”…congregations…plural. Yet they claim to be only “one congregation”??:confused:

If a non-denom decides to use this particular definition…then we are back to it being confusing.

Since they accept this definition then we have:
p : A religious organization who is composed of more than one congregation

Since they claim to be only one congregation, then we have:
p ’ : A religious organization who is not composed of more than one congregation

p and p’…this is always a contradiction…hence, back to it being an oxymoron if this definition is used. Again, its not my attempt to have an “axe to grind”…just trying to figure this out…if it is, or it isn’t an oxymoron.

Let me know if I missed anything…taking the definition out of context…I may have…we are all here to share and to reprove each other in a charitable way:)

peace be with you
 
My gosh…this thread got quite…and I don’t believe its quite because it is done…

Anyone have any feedback on my previous post? Have I made any errors in logic. In particular, non-denoms…I’m open to reading more of your thoughts. And again, I don’t have an “axe to grind”…just trying to share and be charitable. Thanks for your feedback and assistance.

Peace be with you
 
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