non-Double Presdination.

[Syele]

I said in the OSAS thread that it doesn’t make sense.

I believe, God Predestines based on what He knows in advance we will Do. Accept Him or not. isn’t this Double predestination? Some are predestined to hell based on what the PEOPLE will Do, not cause God wanted them in Hell but they will still GO there and God knew it in advance.

Then I see the 5-point Calvinist idea… God Predestined Randomly… NOT based on what people will do or on ANYTHING. If there are 2 options and one is heaven and the other is hell, then those not going to heaven will go to hell!

Now maybe someone is saying that God predestines some for Heaven and the rest have a choice, but this would not reconcile with my own position cause everyone has a choice. And I don’t see how it could reconcile with the 5-point Calvinist position as it would me that all the choices were not random.

isn’t just saying God only predestines to Heaven and not hell just ignoring that the lack of choice is still a choice?

 

[strngrnrth]

I think predestination would make Hell make no sense. Why punish people for something they had nothing to do with?

 

[fbl9]

Hi Seyle if i saw you jump off a tall building i “know” you will be dead on impact does me knowing the outcome of your fall predestine you to death?or did you choose your death by jumping off the building?

 

[SedesDomi]

Hi Seyle if i saw you jump off a tall building i “know” you will be dead on impact does me knowing the outcome of your fall predestine you to death?

Well, if you "created’ Seyle, knowing that he would jump to his death, then would you be somehow responsible for his death?

 

[Crepusculum]

This is all assuming that backwards causality (effect before the cause) is categorically impossible, yes? In other words, are we ruling out the possibility that our decision today can cause God’s knowledge yesterday?

 

[Syele]

I think predestination would make Hell make no sense. Why punish people for something they had nothing to do with?

I agree.

Hi Seyle if i saw you jump off a tall building i “know” you will be dead on impact does me knowing the outcome of your fall predestine you to death?or did you choose your death by jumping off the building?

I don’t think Gods knowledge of an event causes the event, even if He created us knowing we’d do (or not do) something.

that isn’t really what Im getting at.

Well, if you "created’ Syele, knowing that she would jump to her death, then would you be somehow responsible for his death?

Only in an indirect sense.

This is all assuming that backwards causality (effect before the cause) is categorically impossible, yes? In other words, are we ruling out the possibility that our decision today can cause God’s knowledge yesterday?

But God is outside of Time.

My question is: If God Predestines randomly, then how can He not predestine to Hell?

 

[Claire_from_DE]

Those who believe in double predestination, believe that God chooses some to be saved and chooses some to be damned. (Just to show His power over all things.)

However, we know that God wills that all be saved. But God permits people to sin. So His permissive will allows them to be damned.

Catholics believe in predestination and in free will.

Like the sisters told me… it’s a mystery.

 

[fbl9]

click now i see what you are getting at. if He choses you to heaven to hell with the rest kinda thing. for if not in heaven where else is there to go.is it not the will of God that all men should be saved?if it is then it means we have a choice as to be with God or not,if not His will that all should be saved then can we say He chooses some for Himself and to hell with the rest no matter thier chioce to try and serve Him.

 

[Crepusculum]

But God is outside of Time.

Agreed, what does that mean for the concept of God’s fore-knowledge that someone is made for hell? Unless we as beings within time can interact with that great timeless consciousness of God’s, then we can wave goodbye to a lot of things, not just our free will and equal hope of salvation, but also the efficacy of prayer, the immorality of sin, etc… At the end of the day I think we’re all thinking far too much like humans (admittedly, impossible not to at least to some extent), but no matter how problematic the idea is for us, it is still preferrable to calling God’s promise in John 12:32 a lie: “‘But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.’”.

 

[Syele]

Those who believe in double predestination, believe that God chooses some to be saved and chooses some to be damned. (Just to show His power over all things.)

However, we know that God wills that all be saved. But God permits people to sin. So His permissive will allows them to be damned.

Catholics believe in predestination and in free will.

Like the sisters told me… it’s a mystery.

My own position is that there is freewill and predestination. Im asking about a different position, I dont understand how it can make sense.

click now i see what you are getting at. if He choses you to heaven to hell with the rest kinda thing. for if not in heaven where else is there to go.is it not the will of God that all men should be saved?if it is then it means we have a choice as to be with God or not,if not His will that all should be saved then can we say He chooses some for Himself and to hell with the rest no matter thier chioce to try and serve Him.

I had to read that a few times, but yeah, I think you get the idea of my question…

Agreed, what does that mean for the concept of God’s fore-knowledge that someone is made for hell?

Wouldn’t it make God a liar since He says he wishes for all to be saved?

 

[ralphinal]

I see another issue witht he double predestination. If I am going to heaven no matter what I do, as I am predestined for it, why should I not sin? Further, if I am going to hell no matter what, why should I avoid sin?

If I was born either going one place or another and nothing can change that, the party is at my place…

 

[Other_Eric]

I think people in this thread are overlooking one of the intrinsic features of Calvinist predestination, that of irresistible grace. The teaching is not the God predestines a few and is more or less indifferent towards their conduct. One can’t be a member of the elect and sin to one’s heart’s desire. Instead, God provides the elect with irresistible grace that allows them to act in a moral fashion.

That this grace is irresistible does not, strictly speaking, deny free will. Technically speaking, there is still a choice to be had. If, for instance, one found oneself crawling through a burning desert for a day or so and was suddenly offered a drink of water, one wouldn’t be surprised to find oneself accepting the drink even if the option to refuse it exists.

 

[ralphinal]

I think people in this thread are overlooking one of the intrinsic features of Calvinist predestination, that of irresistible grace. The teaching is not the God predestines a few and is more or less indifferent towards their conduct. One can’t be a member of the elect and sin to one’s heart’s desire. Instead, God provides the elect with irresistible grace that allows them to act in a moral fashion.

That this grace is irresistible does not, strictly speaking, deny free will. Technically speaking, there is still a choice to be had. If, for instance, one found oneself crawling through a burning desert for a day or so and was suddenly offered a drink of water, one wouldn’t be surprised to find oneself accepting the drink even if the option to refuse it exists.

So, according to this thought, the elect have a lesser form of the Immaculate Conception? Not that they are born without sin, but they are given more grace to avoid it and that grace makes it easier to do so?

 

[Cathdefender]

I said in the OSAS thread that it doesn’t make sense.

I believe, God Predestines based on what He knows in advance we will Do. Accept Him or not. isn’t this Double predestination? Some are predestined to hell based on what the PEOPLE will Do, not cause God wanted them in Hell but they will still GO there and God knew it in advance.

Then I see the 5-point Calvinist idea… God Predestined Randomly… NOT based on what people will do or on ANYTHING. If there are 2 options and one is heaven and the other is hell, then those not going to heaven will go to hell!

Now maybe someone is saying that God predestines some for Heaven and the rest have a choice, but this would not reconcile with my own position cause everyone has a choice. And I don’t see how it could reconcile with the 5-point Calvinist position as it would me that all the choices were not random.

isn’t just saying God only predestines to Heaven and not hell just ignoring that the lack of choice is still a choice?

Only the 5 point Calvinist idea doesn’t work. NONE of the 5 points are taught in the bible. The “Sinners Prayer” is not in the bible and won’t save you. It is a false doctrine that developed from Calvinism and was first practiced less than fifty years ago.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

I believe that the events that have and will happen through the world and time are to a large part predestined. the actual time and players I don’t think are for we have the choice. the out come I don’t think is even total predestined ( excluding the Return of Christ and the end of days). God just does not work that way. If he did what would be the point of the whole thing.

 

[Other_Eric]

So, according to this thought, the elect have a lesser form of the Immaculate Conception? Not that they are born without sin, but they are given more grace to avoid it and that grace makes it easier to do so?

In the first place, a Calvinist would deny any notion of an immaculate conception. Man is, by himself, total in his depravity. It is only through receiving the unmerited, irresistible salvific grace that he may be justified. The Calvinist conception of predestination is not that the elect are given more grace, it is that they receive any grace at all. Those who are not the elect, the reprobate, receive no grace and are unable to achieve justification.

 

[ibkc]

I think people in this thread are overlooking one of the intrinsic features of Calvinist predestination, that of irresistible grace. The teaching is not the God predestines a few and is more or less indifferent towards their conduct. One can’t be a member of the elect and sin to one’s heart’s desire. Instead, God provides the elect with irresistible grace that allows them to act in a moral fashion.

This? is, to me, completely incompatible with Christian teachings, and I cannot understand how it took hold with so many people the way it did. I find this attitude towards God’s grace more akin to the Hindu caste system where there are noble people born into their station and untouchables born into their station. I just see nothing to support this notion in the Bible or in the writings of the church fathers.

 

[ralphinal]

In the first place, a Calvinist would deny any notion of an immaculate conception. Man is, by himself, total in his depravity. It is only through receiving the unmerited, irresistible salvific grace that he may be justified. The Calvinist conception of predestination is not that the elect are given more grace, it is that they receive any grace at all. Those who are not the elect, the reprobate, receive no grace and are unable to achieve justification.

Ok. So by this thought, man is incapable of resisting sin without grace, as he is totally depraved. It is only because of God that we can resist sin. Those who are not the elect will not get the grace, so GOd allows them to sink deeper into sin, with no recourse other than death. The elect are given the grace to resist the sin, but they can still choose the sin. But, since they are the elect, it does not matter how much they sin or what they do, they will be fine.

Is that right?

 

[Other_Eric]

This? is, to me, completely incompatible with Christian teachings, and I cannot understand how it took hold with so many people the way it did. I find this attitude towards God’s grace more akin to the Hindu caste system where there are noble people born into their station and untouchables born into their station. I just see nothing to support this notion in the Bible or in the writings of the church fathers.

The truth is that Calvin gleaned most of his thinking from Augustine and that man’s writings on original sin and the necessity of God’s grace. Further, the Hindu caste system depends on notions of karma and reincarnation which are alien to both Catholicism and Calvinism.

 

[ibkc]

The truth is that Calvin gleaned most of his thinking from Augustine and that man’s writings on original sin and the necessity of God’s grace. Further, the Hindu caste system depends on notions of karma and reincarnation which are alien to both Catholicism and Calvinism.

I understand that. IMO the Hindu system is preferable over Calvinism, because the people stuck in the miserable lower castes theoretically have unlimited chances to help themselves in future lives. Calvinism, on the other hand, is horrifically bleak and depressing in every way.