non-Double Presdination.

[Claire_from_DE]

My own position is that there is freewill and predestination. Im asking about a different position, I dont understand how it can make sense.

I had to read that a few times, but yeah, I think you get the idea of my question…

Wouldn’t it make God a liar since He says he wishes for all to be saved?

Those who believe in double predestination don’t believe that God wishes ALL to be saved, only those He predestined to salvation. If you feel that God is calling you, this may mean that you are one of the ones He predestined for salvation. So you should accept Him and follow Him. If you accepted Him and are following Him, this may also mean that you are one of the predestined. If you persevere in following him until death, it means you almost certainly were predestined, but not because you followed Him but because you were predestined. If you didn’t accept God and live as a Christian you are showing that you weren’t!

 

[Syele]

I see another issue witht he double predestination. If I am going to heaven no matter what I do, as I am predestined for it, why should I not sin? Further, if I am going to hell no matter what, why should I avoid sin?

If I was born either going one place or another and nothing can change that, the party is at my place…

With their beliefs you just won’t WANT to sin. If you have no desire to sin, then it’s much harder to do it just cause you can. Suppose you are allowed to eat all the pineapple you want, and it wont cause you any problem… BUT you HATE pineapple. How much will you be eating?

Only the 5 point Calvinist idea doesn’t work. NONE of the 5 points are taught in the bible.

That doesn’t change the fact that many people believe it. Your little tirade is fine for people who already don’t believe it, but I cant See how it’d be convincing to those who already believe it and have various verses they use to support it. I ask questions about it because I cannot talk to my friends and family who believe it in any way they will listen if I have no idea where they get the ideas they hold.

The “Sinners Prayer” is not in the bible and won’t save you. It is a false doctrine that developed from Calvinism and was first practiced less than fifty years ago.

That is totally off topic.

Ok. So by this thought, man is incapable of resisting sin without grace, as he is totally depraved. It is only because of God that we can resist sin. Those who are not the elect will not get the grace, so GOd allows them to sink deeper into sin, with no recourse other than death. The elect are given the grace to resist the sin, but they can still choose the sin. But, since they are the elect, it does not matter how much they sin or what they do, they will be fine.
Is that right?

Yes but like I said they have enough of Gods grace to be changed and not want to sin anymore, they are not antinomian. What you describe is Double Predestination.
Tiptoe through the TULIP:

Although a Catholic may agree with unconditional election, he may not affirm “double-predestination,” a doctrine Calvinists often infer from it. This teaching claims that in addition to electing some people to salvation God also sends others to damnation. catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9309fea1.asp

This is the part that I really don’t get. If Election in unconditional, HOW can predestination NOT be double? If He elects SOME to heaven, What happens to the rest?

 

[Claire_from_DE]

I see another issue witht he double predestination. If I am going to heaven no matter what I do, as I am predestined for it, why should I not sin? Further, if I am going to hell no matter what, why should I avoid sin?

If I was born either going one place or another and nothing can change that, the party is at my place…

Well, if you persist in that point of view, it is evident to those who believe in double predestination that you are not one of the elect. Because one of the elect would not have that attitude.

In part, your life can indicate whether you may be one of the elect but the fact you live a good life doesn’t mean that God MUST reward you since works are only a sign of your election, not a contributing cause.

If you are one of the elect you will have good works, but you aren’t elect because of your good works.

People who believe OSAS have an assurance of their salvation, people who believe in double predestination can only have a hope that they are among the saved. Catholics trust that God gives everyone the grace necessary for salvation and if we continue to seek to follow Him, He will be faithful to His promises.

 

[ralphinal]

OK. I am beginning to get the grasp of it, not that I accept it.

Question: how do those who accept doube predestination reconcile it with the verse that says God wished the salvation of all men?

 

[Syele]

OK. I am beginning to get the grasp of it, not that I accept it.

Question: how do those who accept doube predestination reconcile it with the verse that says God wished the salvation of all men?

They say that God has more than one will. A “moral” will of things God would Prefer and a "sovereign: will… that which God makes happen and cannot be changed.

 

[ralphinal]

They say that God has more than one will. A “moral” will of things God would Prefer and a "sovereign: will… that which God makes happen and cannot be changed.

Oh great. God is schizophrenic. That’s all we need.

I guess that the problem is linking predetermination with knowing the outcome. We choose hell. God knows who chooses hell, and creates them anyway. He does not force them to choose hell.

 

[Syele]

I still don’t understand how a Catholic can agree with Unconditional Election.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

I still don’t understand how a Catholic can agree with Unconditional Election.

I agree. I choose to Look at it this way. God has the ability to know everything you will do and how everything will work out, but choose not to for in his great love for all if he did he would then have the stop you from doing wrong and force salvation upon you. I think at is why when God has spoken to us through the Prophets we hear of events and vague outlines of the persons evolved and not the exact person time and place.

 

[ralphinal]

I still don’t understand how a Catholic can agree with Unconditional Election.

Please explain and expound on this.

 

[LutheranDK]

I said in the OSAS thread that it doesn’t make sense.

I believe, God Predestines based on what He knows in advance we will Do. Accept Him or not. isn’t this Double predestination? Some are predestined to hell based on what the PEOPLE will Do, not cause God wanted them in Hell but they will still GO there and God knew it in advance.

Then I see the 5-point Calvinist idea… God Predestined Randomly… NOT based on what people will do or on ANYTHING. If there are 2 options and one is heaven and the other is hell, then those not going to heaven will go to hell!

Now maybe someone is saying that God predestines some for Heaven and the rest have a choice, but this would not reconcile with my own position cause everyone has a choice. And I don’t see how it could reconcile with the 5-point Calvinist position as it would me that all the choices were not random.

isn’t just saying God only predestines to Heaven and not hell just ignoring that the lack of choice is still a choice?

I think your definition of predestination is flawed
Predestination is, in this context, that God has CHOSEN (not because of His knowledge of what we would do) those who are Christians to be thus. To belong to Him, and to spend eternity with Him.

Now, double-predestination, that God has chosen some for Heaven and others for hell (to keep it short and simple), leaves us with a HUGE teodice-problem the way I see it. Because if God has chosen some people to be damned, then it is obviously not His wish that all should be saved, which Scripture teaches us that it is.

Secondly, Scripture ALSO teaches us that Christians are “chosen”, “elect”, or whatever you want to call us.
Therefore - I cannot see it any other way than God having chosen SOME for salvation (it IS still up to us, though, if we accept that vocation).
But I don’t agree that it has to follow from this, that He has also chosen some for damnation.

 

[Syele]

Please explain and expound on this.

  			Originally Posted by **Tiptoe through the TULIP** 					 				
  		* Although a Catholic may agree with unconditional election, he may not affirm "double-predestination," a doctrine Calvinists often infer from it. This teaching claims that in addition to electing some people to salvation God also sends others to damnation. [catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9309fea1.asp](http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9309fea1.asp)*

The deal is that I don’t understand this statement by Jimmy Akin. If election is unconditional, then how can it not be double-predestination?

 

[Syele]

I think your definition of predestination is flawed
Predestination is, in this context, that God has CHOSEN (not because of His knowledge of what we would do) those who are Christians to be thus. To belong to Him, and to spend eternity with Him.

Now, double-predestination, that God has chosen some for Heaven and others for hell (to keep it short and simple), leaves us with a HUGE teodice-problem the way I see it. Because if God has chosen some people to be damned, then it is obviously not His wish that all should be saved, which Scripture teaches us that it is.

Secondly, Scripture ALSO teaches us that Christians are “chosen”, “elect”, or whatever you want to call us.
Therefore - I cannot see it any other way than God having chosen SOME for salvation (it IS still up to us, though, if we accept that vocation).
But I don’t agree that it has to follow from this, that He has also chosen some for damnation.

It jsut seems very illogical to me to say God chose us, if in fact, we chose ourselves and God affirmed it. And even more illogical to say that God didn’t choose some randomly and chose others randomly yet sent none to hell.

If God sent some people to Heaven randomly, what of the others? You cant just pretend they don’t exist.

Say for an example, God chose unconditionally and did not choose me. Yet I WANT to be chosen and I love God and do lots of good works… even join the right church and follow ALL the rules… but of course, its not conditional on what I want and do. It was unconditional. This means I am not elect cause I wasn’t chosen. So do I go to heaven or hell in this example? If I go to heaven then it WAS CONDITIONAL. and if I go to hell then its double predestination because I was chosen to go to hell unconditionally.

I cannot see how unconditional election can be made to be reconciled with single predestination.

 

[LutheranDK]

I have never said that God picked up some sort of celestial phonebook, and said “eenie, meenie, miney, moh”. I’m not talking about selection at RANDOM.
God chose YOU.
And ME
And all other believers BEFORE HE CREATED ANYTHING.
This is what Scripture teaches.
Before we even existed. Indeed, before our parents, grandparents, and THEIR parents existed, God chose you and I to belong to Him, and called us when the time was right; asking us to either accept His calling, or not.

“If God sent some people to Heaven randomly, what of the others? You cant just pretend they don’t exist.”

I did not say “randomly”, as said.
And the others? They were not chosen for salvation. That does not make them chosen for damnation.

“Say for an example, God chose unconditionally and did not choose me. Yet I WANT to be chosen and I love God and do lots of good works… even join the right church and follow ALL the rules… but of course, its not conditional on what I want and do. It was unconditional. This means I am not elect cause I wasn’t chosen. So do I go to heaven or hell in this example? If I go to heaven then it WAS CONDITIONAL. and if I go to hell then its double predestination because I was chosen to go to hell unconditionally.”

I think there’s something we need to straighten out:
Where did I write “unconditional predestination”? Did I not explicitly say, that we have the choice of whether or not to accept God’s vocation?
As for your example: You have missed my point. If you had not been chosen, you would NOT want to be “chosen”; you would NOT love God, and you would most certainly NOT “join the right church and follow ALL the rules” (not that anyone can follow ALL of God’s commandments all the time).
You would hate “God”, despise Christians, etc.
Or you would be agnostic: “I don’t really know - and I don’t think it matters much”
Or you would be: “As long as it’s right for you”, etc.

(NB: I’m not calling those people BAD people! A great many of my good personal friends belong in group 2 and 3!)

The point is that you wouldn’t care about God.

“I cannot see how unconditional election can be made to be reconciled with single predestination.”

It can’t. Neither was it the point I was trying to make.

 

[Syele]

I have never said that God picked up some sort of celestial phonebook, and said “eenie, meenie, miney, moh”. I’m not talking about selection at RANDOM.

WOAH! Slow down. I’m asking a question about what Jimmy Akin said, in his discussion on the Catholic beliefs about 5-point Calvinism. not trying to say what YOU said about it. “unconditional election” would be random.

God chose YOU.
And ME
And all other believers BEFORE HE CREATED ANYTHING.
This is what Scripture teaches.
Before we even existed. Indeed, before our parents, grandparents, and THEIR parents existed, God chose you and I to belong to Him, and called us when the time was right; asking us to either accept His calling, or not.

I agree it was before He made us. God is outside of time, though. He would know what we would do… Even before our ancestors existed. I also believe that God asks us to accept His calling.

"

If God sent some people to Heaven randomly, what of the others? You cant just pretend they don’t exist."

I did not say “randomly”, as said.

AS said, it was a general question about what Jimmy Akin said. not what LutheranDK said. I’m sorry it wasn’t more clear.

And the others? They were not chosen for salvation. That does not make them chosen for damnation.

What DOES it make them chosen for then? If I bake cookies and choose some chocolate chips for the recipe, the others are NOT chosen for cookies. even though I did not point to each chip and say “You are not chosen for baking” Even so they do not get to go in the oven with the cookies. IF these people are not chosen for heaven or damnation, what do you propose they are chosen for?

I think there’s something we need to straighten out:
Where did I write “unconditional predestination”?

5-point Calvinism said that. I said I didn’t agree with it cause it makes no sense. You said it does make sense.

Did I not explicitly say, that we have the choice of whether or not to accept God’s vocation?

If this is what you believe then you agree with me, so not really sure what we are debating??

As for your example: You have missed my point. If you had not been chosen, you would NOT want to be “chosen”; you would NOT love God, and you would most certainly NOT “join the right church and follow ALL the rules” (not that anyone can follow ALL of God’s commandments all the time).
You would hate “God”, despise Christians, etc.
Or you would be agnostic: “I don’t really know - and I don’t think it matters much”
Or you would be: “As long as it’s right for you”, etc.

Sorry but I have to disagree.
**21 Not everyone who says to Me, “Lord, Lord,” shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, “Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?”
23 And then I will declare to them, “I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.”

**Why would they say “Lord Lord” to the ONE TRUE GOD if they had no desire for the Lord? IF they do wonders in Jesus name, they are not going to be agnostic or atheist. You don’t do wonders in the name of someone you are not sure exists. That is talking about people who THOUGHT they were doing right, yet were not. They weren’t following God rules but there was another mentioned in the Bible that did… Remember the rich Young ruler? He said he had obeyed all the commandments and Jesus didn’t say “no you haven’t”, He said you still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." (there is no commandant that says you may not own possessions.) The rich young ruler held a desire for God or he wouldn’t have bothered to ask Jesus about something he didn’t care about, and he DID follow the commandments but he didn’t love God more than his stuff. You can love some things and people more than other things and people. You can love God some and love something else more. It’s unacceptable to get to heaven, but it is possible. Point is, You CAN have a desire for God even if you are not elect. And many will think their bit was enough and it won’t be.

“I cannot see how unconditional election can be made to be reconciled with single predestination.”

It can’t. Neither was it the point I was trying to make.

But it appears Jimmy Akin thinks it can.
"* Although a Catholic may agree with unconditional election, he may not affirm “double-predestination,”*

 

[ralphinal]

The deal is that I don’t understand this statement by Jimmy Akin. If election is unconditional, then how can it not be double-predestination?

Thanks. Now I understand the question. Honestly, I do not hold to the view, so I cannot answer it. I thought that you were saying that it is a required teaching of the Church.

I will try to figure it all out. Again, it is not my position, so I do not know.