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1neophyte
Guest
You just provided a link with a much longer answer than simply “no.” Are you seriously this obtuse or is this some kind of prank?
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1neophyte
Guest
To get back on the actual topic of the thread… Less than a hundred years ago, it was Catholic teaching that anyone who ate meat on any Friday committed a mortal sin and was destined for hell if they weren’t fortunate enough to make it to confession before their death, even an unexpected sudden death. Not any Friday during Lent…any Friday of the year. This notion, of course, was horse excrement. Nevertheless, it was “Catholic teaching”, and did untold levels of damage to who knows how many souls who either lived in paralyzing fear of a false image of God, or rightly recognized it as the utter nonsense that it was and left the Church altogether.
Yes, it is certainly possible for someone to go to hell over one mortal sin. But as for what constitutes a mortal sin, we have to be honest and serious, and admit that there is a gigantic chasm between what God will judge as a mortal sin and our own feeble notions of what constitutes a mortal sin, especially when someone invents a “sin” such as the one noted above. If you want to acquaint yourself with who God is, what He likes and approves of, and dislikes and disapproves of, read every recorded word of Jesus in the gospels. Then read them again. Then again, and again, and again. Anyone who contradicts them or adds to them, no matter how educated they are or how many blogs they write, is simply wrong. Period.
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fladreamer
Guest
I wish things were that way. ‘‘Wish’’ is the key word. I’m sure God sees himself as just, the problem is that God’ s definition of ‘‘just’’ may be so far above your definiton of ‘‘just’’ that if you put the two together, juxtaposed, you wouldn,t think they’re the same.
If you get God’s justice wrong, if you assume, presume that it’s more lenient than it is, you can be in for a total shock. A 5 dollar bet won or lost is inconsequential, an eternity in hell is. The ‘‘beauty’’ of hell is that being irrevocable you only find out you’re in it when it’ s too late to do anything about it.
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1neophyte
Guest
It might also be far below your definition. And if you go around telling people that $5-level consequential things are eternity-in-hell-level consequential things, you are going to be just as liable to judgment as if you do the reverse. Jesus made that pretty clear with the way he dealt with the members of the priesthood in his day. His ways are not our ways. The good news is that we don’t have to guess or wish what His ways are. He spelled them out very clearly in the gospels. And if you are going around spreading fear, you are opposing Him.
Even those that are wicked (say, the U.S. judicial system) make an effort to be fair to even the guilty. If even they can give a “fair trial” to the accused, how much more will our Heavenly Father take into account our competency to “stand trial”?
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fladreamer
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Problem I will find out how liberally merciful or how stingily merciful God is when it’s too late.
i’m aware of the distinction between imperfect and perfect contrition. Imperfect contrition does not '‘work,’ in all situations, but it works in a confession booth. Paired with a firm purpose not to sin again, absolution will be granted. The mafia boss, leaving behind a trail of hurt, pain, terror, broken people, broken families, kids growing up without a father will go straight to heaven. My mom?
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1neophyte
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Not if you familiarize yourself with the four gospels.
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fladreamer
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If he’s the abba of the NT, I’m not opposing him. Then again the abba may be also be another facet of the same coin. The flip side being the judge enforcing the one mortal sin rule.
About the 5$, i was illusrating the chasm between what is at stake with a bet involving not much, or with a bet involving one’s eternity. Overstating God’s mercy may prove fatal. I have Catholic teaching backing me up on this.
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fladreamer
Guest
i’m a cradle (now fallen) Catholic so I would think not. Unless the Church got all the judicial, mathematic aspects of sin all wrong. Or unless being actually in mortal sin (3 conditions and whatnot) is a rare occurrence. Not one Catholic apologist in the world (let’s make it 'the universe) can deny that on unrepented mortal sin=eternal hell. And skipping mass for no valid reason can be that one mortal sin. i’m being the devil’s advocate, but everything I’m saying is 100% aligned with Catholic doctrine. I don’t agree with it, but can’t deny what it is and what it says.
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1neophyte
Guest
Then it’s a false teaching. There is no human language capable of sufficiently stating God’s mercy, much less overstating it. Did you even pay attention to the Gospel reading this past Sunday?
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1neophyte
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What do you mean by “fallen”?
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fladreamer
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Got off the bandwagon. Skipped church for over 25 years. Essentially: hell ,omnipotence, omnibenevolence. You can’t have the three together. One has to go. Also human suffering (mine but also others’) that God, being apparently omnipotent, could suppress or allay considerably. God is an irritating figure. I can conceive that others are madly enamoured with him though. To each his own.
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fladreamer
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My understanding is that God’s mercy is expressed in his willingness to forgive a sinner who is repentant. Die with one unrepented mortal sin, not of the grievous, -cide category, and come back to tell me about God’s mercy. It concerns the temporal realm and is contingent on the sinner’s contrition. My mom may be one heartbeat away from facing an exacting judge.
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fladreamer
Guest
‘‘Mercy’’ needs to be placed in its proper context. My understanding is that God’s mercy is expressed in his unflinching willingness to forgive a sinner who is repentant. Die with one unrepented mortal sin, not of the grievous, -cide category, and come back to tell me about God’s mercy. It concerns the temporal realm and is contingent on the sinner’s contrition. My mom may be one heartbeat away from facing an exacting judge. A prosecutor never knows how well he did until he rests his case and the judge rules. It’s in the judge’s hands.
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goout
Guest
So, given that the Church proclaims the God of love, why do you live in slavish fear of God?
It seems like a choice to me.
I accept God at his word, that he is love, is merciful, that Christ has reconciled me to him.
Why do you choose to fear God?
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1neophyte
Guest
Now I’m really confused. You haven’t been to church in 25 years, you find God irritating, and yet you’re taking the time to read and comment on a Catholic message board, and trying to essentially “evangelize” with this odd and incorrect perspective you have. Something doesn’t add up. You’re clearly searching for something, even if you don’t know what.
It really doesn’t matter who is madly enamoured with God. It is more important that HE is madly enamoured with YOU. Yes, you, the one who is irritated by Him, the one who hasn’t been to church in 25 years, the one who doubts that He will complete the good work in your mother that He started long before you were even conceived. None of that changes His love for you by one iota. You have been hoodwinked and brainwashed by a bunch of liars who have twisted your perspective of God into an unrecognizable mess. They can call themselves ‘Catholic’ if they wish, but it is just one more lie on top of the legion of others they’ve tried to sell.
I assure you, this will all be taken into account when you are judged. Your despair is not entirely your own fault. But you’re wasting a whole lot of time wallowing in it. God is searching for you. Stop trying to hide.
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fladreamer
Guest
Don’t be confused. I like to do all kinds of stuff for the heck of it. I’m naturally curious. I like to peruse forums of people who have social anxiety, ADD, depression, I can relate to what many are experiencing but I know i’m not going to find a cure, or a solution to my problems there. Yet, hope is very tenacious, like a dandelion, it grows in the least favourable spots, it’s hard to kill it off. So I may unconsciously /near unconsciously hope to have a lightbulb moment on here that will make God palatable. Plus there are a couple of super smart people here, among them atheists, and I can learn from them as well. Or marvel at how perceptive they are. And, whether I like it or not, catholicism is part of my personality, my background, my identity even. Growing up it was such a comfort(sic)to know that there was someone who was always willing to listen to my issues and not do one damn thing about them.
But if you yourself are a Catholic you can’t just grab on to the lovey dovey stuff, the dad in the prodigal son’s story, and leave out the ugly part of God/catholicism. God’s goodness/mercy will not override what is written in plain English: one skipped mass is enough to miss heaven. Now tell me exactly how God is just? Tell me how you reconcile one skipped mass with an eternity of torment, despair and pains of the senses? You mischaracterize my position as odd and incorrect. P(name removed by moderator)oint where I erred and back it up with the catechism if you can. Good luck with that. I am theologically and doctrinally sound. I see God and the Church as they are, i just don’t like what I see.
‘‘Hide’’ is the right word.
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1neophyte
Guest
This is where you erred. See paragraph 848 of the Catechism. Just because you think you “know the deal” doesn’t mean you are not ignorant of the gospel. You clearly are.
But hypothetically, let’s say you’re right. Let’s say that the false image of God that you have is accurate. Do you think by “hiding”, you will make God not exist? Do you think because He irritates you, you can just ignore Him and He will become as fictional as Santa Claus? Am I misunderstanding you, or are you saying that you accept the teachings of the Catholic Church as all true, and based on them you’ve accepted that you are going to spend eternity in hell? If you’ve accepted this, do you not have any sense of alarm about your destiny? Or do you actually think it is not really going to happen simply because you find it irritating? I’m genuinely curious.
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goout
Guest
I’m sorry for your predicament, but this is not Catholic thinking.
Like so many others that reject the Church, you don’t reject the Church, you reject your conception of what it is.
Catholicism in no way leaves out the tough parts of life. In fact the word Catholic means “of the whole”. That’s not just groups of people, it means humanity in a holistic way. Good, bad, and ugly.
I find it hard to believe that someone who has been Catholic has never learned what the cross is.
I am sorry you have such a skewed view of the Church.
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Rau
Guest
With all due respect to CAF, CAF is not authoritative, though the answer to the particular question is well given by CAF, referencing an authoritative source (CCC).
Did you read the full answer Tom? Did you notice “slip-ups” cannot fulfill the requirement for “unrepentant mortal sin”?
Do you believe some fail to reach heaven Tom?
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TheAdvocate
Guest
Thanks for actually staying on topic and putting this thread back on the rails.
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