Non-Latin Rites and Papal Succession

[Dan_Daly]

Hello, I have a couple of questions:

1. Do the various Rites in the Catholic Church, other than the Latin Rite, have Cardinals, or some other equivalent who votes on who the new Pope will be when the Pope dies?
2. Is a Catholic from a non-Latin Rite eligible to become Pope?
3. If the answer to question #2 is yes, has there ever been a non-Latin Pope?
4. Which Question #3 immediatley brought to mind as I typed it, at what time did “rites” become officially part of the Church. St. Peter was Catholic and Pope. But was he a member of a particular Rite? I wouldn’t think so, but have never thought about it before.

Thanks you for any help with finding answers.

Pax and God Bless.

 

[Milliardo]

Hello, I have a couple of questions:

1. Do the various Rites in the Catholic Church, other than the Latin Rite, have Cardinals, or some other equivalent who votes on who the new Pope will be when the Pope dies?

Yes

1. Is a Catholic from a non-Latin Rite eligible to become Pope?

Yes

1. If the answer to question #2 is yes, has there ever been a non-Latin Pope?

I am not sure (history goes far back that one will have to research on this, unless there are people who are more familiar with Papal succession…)

1. Which Question #3 immediatley brought to mind as I typed it, at what time did “rites” become officially part of the Church. St. Peter was Catholic and Pope. But was he a member of a particular Rite? I wouldn’t think so, but have never thought about it before.

This IMO requires a very elaborate response. Again, it will depend on which “rite” you’re talking about.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Pope Zacharias (741-752) was the last of the Eastern popes, or so I have heard.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Hello, I have a couple of questions:

1. Do the various Rites in the Catholic Church, other than the Latin Rite, have Cardinals, or some other equivalent who votes on who the new Pope will be when the Pope dies?

In recent times the Pope has given the title of Cardinal to some Eastern Patriarchs and Major Archbishops. Although its the opinion of the East that every head of a particular Church should automatically be included in the college of electors for the Pope, even though they are not Cardinals.

1. Is a Catholic from a non-Latin Rite eligible to become Pope?

At present there is a rule that says only a Cardinal may be elected. But since there are non-Latin Rite Cardinals, then yes.

1. If the answer to question #2 is yes, has there ever been a non-Latin Pope?

In the past, yes. Br. David (ByzCath) has provided an example.

1. Which Question #3 immediatley brought to mind as I typed it, at what time did “rites” become officially part of the Church. St. Peter was Catholic and Pope. But was he a member of a particular Rite? I wouldn’t think so, but have never thought about it before.

Thanks you for any help with finding answers.

Pax and God Bless.

The Rites were not defined yet in the first century. The Rites are a product of theological and ritual developments over time. I believe at the time of the Apostles there was one universal Liturgy which people say it the Liturgy of St. James. As Christianity grew and were subject to influence by different cultures and also the communication between one Church and the next took considerable time because of distance, there was an amount of separate development because each bishop then made their own decisions on minor things.

 

[Caeremonarius]

At present there is a rule that says only a Cardinal may be elected. But since there are non-Latin Rite Cardinals, then yes.

Where is this found? I had followed this thread: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=568447 before, but there’s nothing in there that thread that states definitively that one must be a Cardinal to be elected. In fact, all the Catholic sources I’d read before the last conclave (2005) stated what I’ve always understood: that one need only be a male Catholic in good standing (not in schism or heresy) to be elected.

So, the short answer to the OP would be, "Yes. A male non-Latin Rite Catholic could be elected pope (since any male Catholic could be elected pope).

AJ

 

[ConstantineTG]

Where is this found? I had followed this thread: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=568447 before, but there’s nothing in there that thread that states definitively that one must be a Cardinal to be elected. In fact, all the Catholic sources I’d read before the last conclave (2005) stated what I’ve always understood: that one need only be a male Catholic in good standing (not in schism or heresy) to be elected.

So, the short answer to the OP would be, "Yes. A male non-Latin Rite Catholic could be elected pope (since any male Catholic could be elected pope).

AJ

That is what I believed too but I read somewhere in the past that recent rules state that the candidates are chosen from the Cardinals. It could be speculation on recent trends rather than actual Church Law. I am trying to find out what the official word is as well.

 

[Dan_Daly]

Thanks for all the replies and information.

I broached the topic with a friend who is a Byzantine Priest today.

He stated that there are now some Patriarchs of non-Latin Rites who have been made Cardinals. He further stated, that this doesn’t exactly sit well with Patriachs of non-Latin Rites, because Cardinal is really a demotion from Patriarch (as the Pope is a Patriarch himself). He wasn’t 100% sure if a Patriarch who becomes a cardinal has to step down and someone else be Patriarch, or if he can fill both positions at the same time.

I’ve also been digging into how many Rites the Church has…

TALK ABOUT CONFUSING.

The term “rite” is used in multiple ways. I’ve got sources that say there are 6 Rites and those that say there are 7. Each “Rite” has a number of “churches” but in order to maximize confusion “churches” are also known as…rites. Right.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Well no, Churches and Rites are different things although most people confuse them.

Cardinal is just a title which says that this ordained man is a member of the electorate. A Cardinal doesn’t really hold an official office attached to a Cardinal. There is none. Cardinals can be members of the Roman Curia, Local Ordinaries, or in the case of the East, Patriarchs. One can be a Patriarch and a Cardinal at the same time. His Beatitude Lubomyr, Patriarch emeritus of the UGCC is a Cardinal (okay, so the Church recognizes him as a Major Archbishop, but same thing).

 

[Vico]

That is what I believed too but I read somewhere in the past that recent rules state that the candidates are chosen from the Cardinals. It could be speculation on recent trends rather than actual Church Law. I am trying to find out what the official word is as well.

Pope Benedict XVI ammended the electoral rulese in 2007 to the traditional rule requiring a 2/3 majority to elect a new Pope, without considering the number of ballots.

Cardinals only, 120 Cardinals maximum allowed to vote, age 80 and a day, or less when the Pope was alive.

For the regulations from Pope John Paul II see:

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_jp-ii_apc_22021996_universi-dominici-gregis_en.html

Moto Proprio 2007, of Bennedict XVI, French and Latin:

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/motu_proprio/index_en.htm

 

[Caeremonarius]

That is what I believed too but I read somewhere in the past that recent rules state that the candidates are chosen from the Cardinals. It could be speculation on recent trends rather than actual Church Law. I am trying to find out what the official word is as well.

There’s certainly nothing in Universi Dominici Gregis that states this. Being a Cardinal simply means that one is an ***elector ***for the pope, not that one has to choose a member of the College of Cardinals as pope. (Cf. the U.S. Electoral College and the U.S. President, whom it elects. The U.S. President-elect is not a member of the College that elects him.) Indeed, Universi Dominici Gregis implies that a non-Cardinal could be elected, since it gives instructions on what to do if the man elected isn’t a bishop yet (all Cardinal electors are bishops).

Of course, it’s essentially pure speculation that a non-Cardinal elector would be chosen as pope. The last time that happened was in the 14th century.

AJ

 

[Diakonia]

He stated that there are now some Patriarchs of non-Latin Rites who have been made Cardinals. He further stated, that this doesn’t exactly sit well with Patriachs of non-Latin Rites, because Cardinal is really a demotion from Patriarch (as the Pope is a Patriarch himself).

He’s asolutely correct on that point.

He wasn’t 100% sure if a Patriarch who becomes a cardinal has to step down and someone else be Patriarch, or if he can fill both positions at the same time.

No, they do not. Examples include the current Chaldean and Coptic Patriarchs, as well as past Patriarchs of the Armenian, Chaldean, Coptic, Maronite, Malabarese, Melkite, and Syriac Churches

I’ve also been digging into how many Rites the Church has…

TALK ABOUT CONFUSING.

The term “rite” is used in multiple ways. I’ve got sources that say there are 6 Rites and those that say there are 7. Each “Rite” has a number of “churches” but in order to maximize confusion “churches” are also known as…rites. Right.

Churches are not known as Rites. That error was corrected after Vatican II.

As to a list of Rites and the Churches that use each - there are either 5 or 6 Eastern and Oriental Catholic Rites (depending on who is counting). There is a list in the stickied thread titled SOPHIA: Eastern & Oriental Catholic Rites & Churches - A Reference Thread

 

[Caeremonarius]

He stated that there are now some Patriarchs of non-Latin Rites who have been made Cardinals. He further stated, that this doesn’t exactly sit well with Patriachs of non-Latin Rites, because Cardinal is really a demotion from Patriarch (as the Pope is a Patriarch himself). He wasn’t 100% sure if a Patriarch who becomes a cardinal has to step down and someone else be Patriarch, or if he can fill both positions at the same time.

All Cardinals are given a title of a Roman church (or suburbicarian church – one of the suburban Dioceses around Rome) to show his “connection” to the Diocese of Rome. A bishop named Cardinal does not step down (e.g., the Cardinal Archbishop of Galveston-Houston did not step down when he was made a Cardinal; he remained Archbishop of his see, and added the title of Cardinal Priest of Sant’Eusebio.)

A Patriarch named Cardinal does not step down; in fact, his “Roman” title is that of his Patriarchate. Patriarch Maximos IV (Sayegh) of the Melkite Church was made a Cardinal, but wasn’t given a Roman church; he was just called “Cardinal-Patriarch Maximos IV of Antioch.”

AJ

 

[Vico]

There’s certainly nothing in Universi Dominici Gregis that states this. Being a Cardinal simply means that one is an ***elector ***for the pope, not that one has to choose a member of the College of Cardinals as pope. (Cf. the U.S. Electoral College and the U.S. President, whom it elects. The U.S. President-elect is not a member of the College that elects him.) Indeed, Universi Dominici Gregis implies that a non-Cardinal could be elected, since it gives instructions on what to do if the man elected isn’t a bishop yet (all Cardinal electors are bishops).

Of course, it’s essentially pure speculation that a non-Cardinal elector would be chosen as pope. The last time that happened was in the 14th century.

AJ

I think the document is detailing who can elect. I remember reading once that the Armenian Partriarch (and Cardinal) of Cilicia Grégoire-Pierre Agagianian was almost elected (in 1958). The one canon named in paragraph 5 is below:

CIC Can. 349 The Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church constitute a special College, whose prerogative it is to elect the Roman Pontiff in accordance with the norms of a special law. The Cardinals are also available to the Roman Pontiff, either acting collegially, when they are summoned together to deal with questions of major importance, or acting individually, that is, in the offices which they hold in assisting the Roman Pontiff especially in the daily care of the universal Church.

 

[Caeremonarius]

He stated that there are now some Patriarchs of non-Latin Rites who have been made Cardinals. He further stated, that this doesn’t exactly sit well with Patriachs of non-Latin Rites, because Cardinal is really a demotion from Patriarch (as the Pope is a Patriarch himself).
Diakonia;8311374:

He’s asolutely correct on that point.

I can see this in another way, though. Monarchs often give honorary knighthoods to other monarchs (e.g., Queen Elizabeth II gave the Order of the Garter to King Juan Carlos of Spain, Emperor Akihito of Japan, King Harald of Norway, and others. Similarly King Juan Carlos of Spain named King Carl Gustaf XVI of Sweden, Emperor Akihito, Queen Beatrix of the Netherlands, Queen Elizabeth II and many others as Knights and Ladies of the Golden Fleece). Is this considered a demotion or insult? Or is it an honor from one monarch to another? Certainly the Queen of the UK isn’t implying that her country or power are greater than that of Spain or some other nation by bestowing this knighthood.

Similarly, the Pope or other Patriarchs can and should do what they can to honor each other (when appropriate). If the Pope makes a Patriarch a Cardinal, the Patriarch in turn could make the Pope an honorary member of the Patriarchal clergy. (I would argue that my Patriarch, His Beatitude Gregory III of Antioch did just that. He gave Pope Benedict XVI an Eastern staff (crozier) and a dikirion and a trikirion (blessing candles) when the Pope visited Jordan in 2009, making him an honorary Melkite bishop. If that was a demotion, it was certainly one that His Holiness enjoyed, as demonstrated below.)

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[Caeremonarius]

I think the document is detailing who can elect. I remember reading once that the Armenian bishop was almost elected. The one canon named in paragraph 5 is below:

CIC Can. 349 The Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church constitute a special College, whose prerogative it is to elect the Roman Pontiff in accordance with the norms of a special law. The Cardinals are also available to the Roman Pontiff, either acting collegially, when they are summoned together to deal with questions of major importance, or acting individually, that is, in the offices which they hold in assisting the Roman Pontiff especially in the daily care of the universal Church.

I agree. *Universi Dominici Gregis *is directed to the Cardinal electors, but makes no mention of ***whom ***they can elect. It’s said that Giovanni Battista Montini (the future Paul VI) received several votes in 1958, before he was made a Cardinal. Each time they vote, the each Cardinals swears that he’s casting a ballot for “the one who before God I think should be elected” (not “the *Cardinal *I think should be elected”).

AJ

 

[Dan_Daly]

As to a list of Rites and the Churches that use each - there are either 5 or 6 Eastern and Oriental Catholic Rites (depending on who is counting). There is a list in the stickied thread titled SOPHIA: Eastern & Oriental Catholic Rites & Churches - A Reference Thread

Like I said- confusing.

How about when the Catholic Church is counting?

The link reference above shows:

Alexandrian
Antiochian
Armenian
Byzantine
Chaldean
Maronite

Plus Latin, that would be 7 Rites.

But church sources refer to “the Ambrosian Rite”

ahhhh…

Interestingly, in the West, persons belong to a Rite and Rites to a Church (which uses more than a single Rite). In the East, persons belong to a Church and the Church (in some instances, more than a single Church) to a Rite.

To illustrate:

most Western Catholics belong to the Latin Rite with smaller numbers adhering to the Ambrosian, Bragan, and Mozarabic Rites, all of which belong to the Latin Church;
some Eastern Catholics belong to the Melkite Church, which (with 13 other Churches) uses the Byzantine Rite.

So like I said confusing. There are 7 Rites- unless there are only 5…or 6. And unless you count all the rites within the Latin Church, which is a rite, with lots of smaller rites which are a lot like Churches, that would be within a rite.

Everybody got it?

Right.

Rite.

 

[Diakonia]

Similarly, the Pope or other Patriarchs can and should do what they can to honor each other (when appropriate). If the Pope makes a Patriarch a Cardinal, the Patriarch in turn could make the Pope an honorary member of the Patriarchal clergy. (I would argue that my Patriarch, His Beatitude Gregory III of Antioch did just that. He gave Pope Benedict XVI an Eastern staff (crozier) and a dikirion and a trikirion (blessing candles) when the Pope visited Jordan in 2009, making him an honorary Melkite bishop. If that was a demotion, it was certainly one that His Holiness enjoyed, as demonstrated below.)

I can assure you that His Beatitude Gregorios did not make the Pope an honorary Melkite bishop - as there is no such thing. Traditionally, when the Pope serves the Divine Liturgy of another Church, he does so using the appropriate liturgical accoutrements and vesture of a hierarch of that Church, including - in this case - using the triki-diki with which to bless.

 

[Vico]

Like I said- confusing.

How about when the Catholic Church is counting?

The link reference above shows:

Alexandrian
Antiochian
Armenian
Byzantine
Chaldean
Maronite

Plus Latin, that would be 7 Rites.

But church sources refer to “the Ambrosian Rite”

ahhhh…

So like I said confusing. There are 7 Rites- unless there are only 5…or 6. And unless you count all the rites within the Latin Church, which is a rite, with lots of smaller rites which are a lot like Churches, that would be within a rite.

Everybody got it?

Right.

Rite.

The CCEO refers to those six as eastern traditions. The rites in that code arise from the traditions.

 

[Diakonia]

Like I said- confusing.

How about when the Catholic Church is counting?

The link reference above shows:

Alexandrian
Antiochian
Armenian
Byzantine
Chaldean
Maronite

Plus Latin, that would be 7 Rites.

But church sources refer to “the Ambrosian Rite”

ahhhh…

So like I said confusing. There are 7 Rites- unless there are only 5…or 6. And unless you count all the rites within the Latin Church, which is a rite, with lots of smaller rites which are a lot like Churches, that would be within a rite.

Everybody got it?

Right.

Rite.

Yes, there are 7, counting the Latin (I was referring to the 6 Eastern and Oriental). The Code of Canon Law denominates 6 - omitting the Maronite, which it considers to be of the Antiochene or Antiochian Rite (historically, it was considered a distinct Rite and many still consider it so, though - when and if the Maronites are able to remove the pervasive latinizations that they adopted - the time may come when they are able to reclaim their Antiochian ritual heritage and serve according to it).

The extant Rites of the Latin Church are Latin, Ambrosian, Mozarabic, and Bragan. The latter three, however, are not Rites in the truest sense, not as they are today.

The Latin Church is not a Rite; no Chuch is (though the Armenian Church is the sole Church which serves according to the Armenian Rite and the Maronite Church the sole Church which serves according to the Maronite Rite).

The Latin Church serves according to the Latin Rite, with the exception of those ecclesiastical entities and communities which serve according to the Ambrosian (Milanese), Mozarabic, and Bragan Rites. There are also a handful of religious communities (e.g., the Dominicans) which serve according to what have historically been termed their own Rites, but which are really - in modern terms - Usages.

 

[Vico]

Here are some non-Cardinal Popes, since 1058 when the cardinals first became the electors:

Urban IV (1261)
Bl. Gregory X (1271)
Celestine V (1294)
Clement V (1305)
Bl. Urban V (1362)
Urban VI (1378)