Non Literal Creation Interpretation

[grannymh]

We know that there was natural death in the world simply because Eve would not have understood the consequences of eating of the tree of good and evil, for doing so would cause death. The serpent tempted her by saying, “Did God say so?” And Even embellished God’s command saying that to even touch the fruit would bring death, so she understood the concept, something she could not have done if she had no knowledge of it from the natural world in which she lived.

Very good point. Thank you. Funny how I can look at a verse a million times and miss that important connection to the natural world.

 

[Julia_Mae]

Sister Julia

I would like further clarification of what you mean by this. How could “Adam”, a created being, exist in a “state beyond time and space”?

By God’s Will, how else? BTW, you may call me by my name, which is Julia Mae. Please do not address me in some other fashion of your own invention. You may also not address me at all.

 

[Julia_Mae]

We know that there was natural death in the world simply because Eve would not have understood the consequences of eating of the tree of good and evil, for doing so would cause death. The serpent tempted her by saying, “Did God say so?” And Even embellished God’s command saying that to even touch the fruit would bring death, so she understood the concept, something she could not have done if she had no knowledge of it from the natural world in which she lived.

This is such an excellent point, and one I hadn’t heard in the context of this topic before. Thank you for posting it.

 

[Vouthon]

By God’s Will, how else? BTW, you may call me by my name, which is Julia Mae. Please do not address me in some other fashion of your own invention. You may also not address me at all.

Julia Mae,

I had not known that rudeness and brashness in speech was commendable in Christianity?

I usually address people on forums with the term “sister” or “brother” as a priest would during the mass, to emphasise the common brotherhood of the body of Christ and of man. Why that would irk you so greatly is beyond me. Such language (brother and sister) is also biblical, as in the Pauline Epistles, You have something against this? Fine I have spoke this way since I was thirteen years old and first went on forums and I’m not going to stop now, so sorry but “no”. You’ll just have to accustom yourself to my style of posting or I will simply not engage you in discussion again.

BTW I’m not satisfied with your answer. It doesn’t help me understand at all what you mean.

BTW Sister Julia, I will still call you that since it annoys you The reason is simple: It will hopefully over time soften your heart.

I think it is my right to address you in any manner which I wish. You could call me “Vouthy” and it wouldn’t mind me a jot, so why on earth would this irritate you too the extent of you mentioning it at all? Just to make a statement?

Its a forum, these aren’t our real names or identities anyway which makes your above post even more odd in my eyes.

 

[Julia_Mae]

Julia I’m going to pick on your response as it comes closest to the true question for me. You are saying similar things to what a lot of others are saying, but the way I see your thinking going is precisely what causes my pondering.

I understand intellectually the logic behind the idea that physical death has always been the gateway to eternal communion, the seed. But death is not intellectual.

I have watched it in my dog, as grim creeper snuck up on him slowly. I volunteer in hospice and what I witness is not good.

I’m going to challenge this. What you witness is not the soul passing on, because we aren’t equipped to see that. What you see is fear, suffering, pain, grief - you see humans reacting to death. You see what remains after the soul departs.

I’ve seen other kinds of death. Death in peace and eager to go, to join loved ones already passed. Our problem is we see death as the worst thing that can happen, but of course, it isn’t, it’s just a change from one type of existence to the next.

Death is just the way things work.

Your life depends on death is exactly my point. The very existence of life here is tied up in death. For life to exist without death it would have to be very different. I envision a mystical change in the whole order of creation.

Possibly. Certainly there was a mystical change in the whole order of Creation at the Crucifixion. But what do you define as “Creation?” All that is not-God is created by God. That includes all dimensions, the Heaven we know has at least three levels, states of being other than those at minimum three Heavens we call Purgatory, and any other states of existence God has chosen to bring into being.

Jesus said that only He had seen the Father, only He had come from Heaven, where do you think angels exist?

It really does come down to not being able to see death as part of “good”, “very good”, or “perfect”.

I’m sorry this is a problem for you, because it can make you fear dying, and all fear crowds out Faith. Fear of dying is the cause of a great deal of evil. It’s part of the great perfection of Creation. And we can’t reject any part of that, even when it seems to our limited minds to be patently absurd to call it perfect. A great deal of it seems dreadful to me. But it’s what God Wills for our good. So it is.

Now this I could follow a lot easier and its in one sense what I’m thinking but as soon as I start down this road the creation of man has already happened in the other state and so the whole “evolution of life into man” bit becomes entirely moot if we didn’t come from here to start with.

But it isn’t “evolution of life into man.” It’s evolution (change over time) and many life forms, one of which became a species called Homo sapiens. Humankind is not a bunch of animals. Humankind can only happen when, at God’s Will, the soul is bound to the Homo sapien.

You cannot evolve a soul. It is an immediate creation of God.

I cannot grasp that an animal doesn’t have some sort of a soul, not a human one, not one destined for union with God.

Your dog is fine and waiting for you. They’re all fine and waiting for us. That’s a function of Love. Of course, dogs don’t have to do a thing to be perfect, they cannot sin. So, it’s not necessary for them to suffer needlessly before they die. All my dogs have been euthanized while I held them.

The suffering of the animals as they die, I cannot view as good, and our current world / life depends on death for its existence. This is what evolution depends on. Its not good, not very good, not perfect.

Well, you see, you don’t seem to be saying you think death is bad, you seem to be saying you hate suffering. As do I. Evolution also depends on birth, I know, I’m a bit of an expert on the topic. It depends on how life is lived, and how individual organisms respond to those around it. It depends on change, a bit on chance, but mostly on interaction in life. You see, it can’t depend solely on death, because all things die. If that was the total determining factor, nothing would change.

Death in the process of change is only significant in terms of when it occurs. And of course, the fact that everything lives by killing something else, even if it’s a stalk of grain. It was Jesus Who said the grain must die to live.

I find it easier to decide that a large quantity of PhD’s are wrong somehow, even if I can’t explain it either, rather than to decide physical death preexisted sin in the world.

Only humans sin. Only humans can. Only beings with spiritual souls can sin.

Because the majority of these guys also tell me I don’t have an eternal soul, christ didn’t rise, there are no miracles or angels or demons or saints etc.

Well, most of the ones I worked with and studied under didn’t say that. And when some of them do, they are speaking far outside their areas of expertise. Most of them also can’t tell you what car you should buy or diagnose an illness. But like all of us, they opine. Humans are an opinionated bunch.

You know, it’s fine with the Church if you want to read the story literally. Or just not consider it much at all. When Jesus comes back, that’s when we get the perfect world without suffering. Or, when we pass on and enter Heaven. When we get to greet all our loved ones again, of every species. And that Eternity will make this speck of existence seem totally worthwhile as horrible as it sometimes is. And we’ll understand.

I’m so sorry for your losses.

 

[grannymh]

. Before the Fall, Adam lived in a place God had Created for him a state that was not in Time/Space, where earth is.

I would like further clarification of what you mean by this. How could “Adam”, a created being, exist in a “state beyond time and space”? We do not believe in pre-existence of souls in the Catholic Church.

By God’s Will, how else? .

Regarding the creation of Adam, – God’s will for Adam, is contained in the Catholic teaching of monogenism. The Catholic Church teaches that the whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man.” (St. Thomas Aquinas in DeMalo 4,1.) Common sense would dictate that for you and me, who definitely live in time/space, it is a must that our actual first parents began life in time/space.

 

[Michael_Francis]

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