non-manmade music from instrument

[Cat]

When I was growing up, I was a member of a Conference Baptist Church.

I played piano for services in that church starting in 6th grade. The church had a beautiful full-sized grand Baldwin.

When I was in 7th grade, I was doing some very difficult repertoire, and our old home upright piano wasn’t sufficient.

The church gave me, a little 7th grader, a key to the church so that I could come and practice whenever I wished. The only stipulation was that if there was a service or Bible study going on in the chapel (in back of the sanctuary), I couldn’t practice because it would disturb them.

I think that Catholic Churches with organs and good pianos should do the same for their parishioners and the children of parishioners who are taking lessons.

I realize that the slippery lawyers nowadays are looking for opportunities to sue, and perhaps that’s why churches aren’t so comfortable allowing just anyone to practice alone. Well, then get a group of volunteers, older folks who are willing to sit in the sanctuary while the child or teenager practices. This would be wise anyway; nowadays, I wouldn’t let a child or teenager sit alone for any length of time in a church, even when Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament is present. People are mean nowadays, and have no respect for our Lord.

I am an active member of the oldest music club in the U.S., and we have piano practice available–for $20/hour. So the opportunities for kids to practice on good pianos are usually too expensive for most families. Churches, this is a kind act–let’s just do it, OK?

 

[VociMike]

This has become an interesting topic.

Mike pointed out a document from 1958, which states that nothing other people playing instruments is allowed.

However, from what I remember, tape recorders weren’t even invented yet, or at least, they weren’t on the market. Heck, 45LPs were new technology.

Now today, we have what is called work-station keyboards.

By brother is a professional musician. His band uses three work station keyboards, and one of their specialties is big band swing music. You’d never know that it was key boards playing the add on instruments.

I had thought of using one of these keyboards at Mass, when I would be the only guitar player available, I could use the key board to fill in the violins, organ, you name it. Now, it would still be me playing the add in music, but, it would be technically replayed, as an accompaniment to me, playing live.

Of course there are many in here that want Mass to be a guitar free zone, but thats merely a matter of taste.

Apparently, under the old 1958 document, this would not be allowed.

Looks to me, this document is outdated.

Jim

Any Church document which deals with technology will become outdated. Until another document should come out, that leaves us with the task of trying to adapt, in good faith, the concerns expressed in the document. I see at least two concerns here.

1. Since music is pars integrans (an integral part of) the liturgy, the music should be created by those taking part in the liturgy. Here the concept of “active participation” certainly comes into play.
2. The music should be able to adapt to the events taking place in the particular liturgy, and to exercise a proper leadership role (through dynamic variation of tempo, volume, etc). This is something a live musician on scene can do, but a recording cannot.

As to using newer technology, it would seem reasonable that if this technology is simply assisting the musician to create live music during the liturgy then it would be acceptable. But if the technology is creating music outside the detailed control of a live musician (that is, more control than just ON-OFF and volume UP-DOWN), then it would not seem to be acceptable.

In the case you mention, if the recorded accompanying tracks are synched in tempo and volume with your live playing then I would not see a problem with it. If the accompanying tracks were fixed and you had to adapt your live playing (and the congregation its singing) to them then I think that would be a violation of the intent of the document.

Seem reasonable?

BTW, tape recorders were widespread by the late 1940s, and wire recorders a decade or two earlier.

 

[chicago]

No, it’s this document:
adoremus.org/1958Intro-sac-mus.html

And AFAIK is “as far as I know”

BTW (by the way), the document also says

The use of automatic instruments and machines, such as the automatic organ, phonograph, radio, tape or wire recorders, and other similar machines, is absolutely forbidden in liturgical functions and private devotions, whether they are held inside or outside the church, even if these machines be used only to transmit sermons or sacred music, or to substitute for the singing of the choir or faithful, or even just to support it.

By the same reasoning, one would think that electronic amplicfication should even be prohibited.

 

[VociMike]

By the same reasoning, one would think that electronic amplicfication should even be prohibited.

I don’t see the connection at all.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

BTW, tape recorders were widespread by the late 1940s, and wire recorders a decade or two earlier.

I know that the technology was used by the government and broadcasting networks, but I don’t believe tape recorders came into the average home until the early 60’s. I remember my parents buying a GE reel to reel tape recorder. My father had it hooked up to the TV so he could record “Sing Along With Mitch”(Miller).

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

As it is, I don’t think you’ll find organs that use air blown through reeds being manufactured anymore unless its a custom made piece, which would be expensive. Most generate organ sound electronically, much the same as a keyboard, except they’ll have an amplifier ands speaker system in a wooden cabinet, to give it a richer sound.

Churches which have traditional “tracker,” organs are something to behold. Of course the average cost for one of those is about $1.5 million.

Jim

 

[Reformed_Rob]

I think this thread is proving something that I have been saying for years (in the Protestant churches first, and now as a Catholic):

**Mama, let your babies grow up to play keyboard instruments! **

Seriously, there is a real shortage of church keyboardists (organ and/or piano), and we need to encourage (with financial scholarships!) parents to get their kids into piano and organ lessons!

Yes, I totally agree with you Cat

 

[Reformed_Rob]

Churches which have traditional “tracker,” organs are something to behold. Of course the average cost for one of those is about $1.5 million.
Jim

Hi Jim,

What is a traditional “tracker” organ? Is that another name for the type of organ that blows the air? Aren’t they also called pipe organs?

Thanks,
Rob

 

[Sarabande]

I think this thread is proving something that I have been saying for years (in the Protestant churches first, and now as a Catholic):

**Mama, let your babies grow up to play keyboard instruments! **

Seriously, there is a real shortage of church keyboardists (organ and/or piano), and we need to encourage (with financial scholarships!) parents to get their kids into piano and organ lessons!

I couldn’t agree with you more about this. We need to be cultivating more love for music and performing on those instruments. And the better the organist is at a church, the more inspired a child will be to play that instrument.

There are good organists out there, but many Catholic churches won’t or can’t pay enough of a salary that is worthwhile. The ones I know who can play work in high church Protestant churches - and many of those organists are Catholic.

 

[VociMike]

Hi Jim,

What is a traditional “tracker” organ? Is that another name for the type of organ that blows the air? Aren’t they also called pipe organs?

A tracker organ is an organ that has a direct mechanical connection between the keys and the air valves. Organist friends tell me they’re the nicest organs to play.

 

[CarrieH]

The church gave me, a little 7th grader, a key to the church so that I could come and practice whenever I wished. The only stipulation was that if there was a service or Bible study going on in the chapel (in back of the sanctuary), I couldn’t practice because it would disturb them…

I realize that the slippery lawyers nowadays are looking for opportunities to sue, and perhaps that’s why churches aren’t so comfortable allowing just anyone to practice alone.

Sad to say, the world was a far safer place back then, especially if you lived in a small town or in the suburbs and not in a bad neighborhood in a large city. It’s not just the liability risk, but there is the issue of having unwanted “visitors” when the building is not secured, and the more people who have keys, the greater the likelihood that someone will leave the building unlocked, or that the keys will be duplicated and/or fall into unauthorized hands. It could be a very sticky situation if young parishioner Johnny came to practice on Tuesday night, and on Wednesday morning the church was found vandalized or robbed…or worse yet, if Johnny didn’t come home because he had been assaulted!

 

[CarrieH]

What is a traditional “tracker” organ? Is that another name for the type of organ that blows the air? Aren’t they also called pipe organs?

All tracker organs are pipe organs, but not all pipe organs are trackers. Want more info? Check out: zianet.com/fpc/organmusichistory.htm

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Hi Jim,

What is a traditional “tracker” organ? Is that another name for the type of organ that blows the air? Aren’t they also called pipe organs?

Thanks,
Rob

Traditional tracker organs blow air through pipes instead of reeds.

PBS did a documentary on the company that builds these things. Its amazing. Each pipe is hand tuned, at the Church.
They installed one at an Episcopalian Church, somewhere in the US. (age prevents me from remembering where. )

Jim

 

[CarrieH]

In the case you mention, if the recorded accompanying tracks are synched in tempo and volume with your live playing then I would not see a problem with it. If the accompanying tracks were fixed and you had to adapt your live playing (and the congregation its singing) to them then I think that would be a violation of the intent of the document.

This is very do-able with the kind of keyboard which I mentioned in a previous post. Tempo, volume, and pitch could all be adjusted with the touch of a button or two. Whoever was operating the “robo-piano” would do a run-through before Mass with the cantor and any instrumentalists to make sure everything would go smoothly, and it usually did, up until the day the thing shorted out and died…and when it did, it would have squealed and crackled the same way whether a disk was in the drive or not.

 

[CarrieH]

PBS did a documentary on the company that builds these things. Its amazing. Each pipe is hand tuned, at the Church. They installed one at an Episcopalian Church, somewhere in the US. (age prevents me from remembering where. )

That would be at St. Mark’s Episcopal Church in Grand Rapids, MI, by Nebraska builder Gene Bedient. bedientorgan.com/text-21.html This organ has since been sold to the University of North Texas.

I lived in Grand Rapids for a number of years, and had the opportunity to play that organ a few times. It is a most exceptional instrument! And BTW, Bedient is but one of a number of American pipe organ builders. Oberlin Conservatory is a veritable mecca for organ students, and they have a number of fine pipe organs by a variety of builders. oberlin.edu/con/divinfo/keyboard/organ.html If you scroll down to the “facilities” section, there are links to the specs on some of the organs.

 

[Cat]

What can be done to encourage a “scholarship fund” at Catholic parishes? Practical ideas, please? I’m a fairly new Catholic and I really don’t like the idea of stepping forward and making what might be considered an “audacious” suggestion. But I honestly think it would be helpful. I know first-hand that there is a terrible shortage of pianists/organists, and it breaks my heart to think how many churches never hear music other than acapella.

I also think it would be helpful if Catholic Churches published a list of music teachers in their area who are willing to train a child up in a “Christian” studio, i.e., teachers who teach a child that playing an instrument should be done “for the glory of God,” and give that child opportunities to play in church.

I was given the opportunity to start playing in church when I was 12, and even though I wasn’t that good at first, the more I played, the better I got. I did a lot of my playing in evening “Singspiration” type church services at first, which gave me lots of practical experience in playing hymns and sight-reading. Eventually I was the “top” pianist in my church, and did a lot of accompanying work for some of the best singers and instrumentalists in our city.

My piano teacher actively sought “work” for me in churches in our city. When I was in 8th grade, I was “hired” to play piano for a small United Brethren church; I received $5.00 each Sunday, which was a fortune for a young teenager back then!

I was also encouraged to learn “Christian” music repertoire, both classical and contemporary.

And my teacher always PRAYED with all of her students before our recitals, that our music would bring glory to God, not ourselves.

SOME piano teachers that I know discourage this kind of thing, labelling all music but classical as “low” and “not good for the fingers,” and scoffing at “religion.” Personally, I wouldn’t care how good they were at their job–I wouldn’t want my kid around them.

Anyway, I think that many Catholic parents would love to get their kids into piano/organ lessons, but they’re not quite sure where to start or who to call. Surely the parishes could provide a list, perhaps even listing those teachers who accept “Beginner” students and charge on a sliding scale. Perhaps some teachers (those who aren’t making a living from it) would be willing to barter services for lessons–I don’t teach piano lessons, but if I did, I would willingly accept other things besides money; e.g., I don’t cook well, so I would love to have a casserole or a loaf of banana bread. And I don’t garden well (everything dies!), so I would be thrilled if a student/parent was willing to fix up my yard! (The going rate for piano lessons in our city is around $20-25/hour, BTW.)

 

[VociMike]

What can be done to encourage a “scholarship fund” at Catholic parishes? Practical ideas, please? I’m a fairly new Catholic and I really don’t like the idea of stepping forward and making what might be considered an “audacious” suggestion. But I honestly think it would be helpful. I know first-hand that there is a terrible shortage of pianists/organists, and it breaks my heart to think how many churches never hear music other than acapella.

This sounds like something best approached on the diocesan level. Why not simply write a letter to your bishop with a concrete proposal (rather than just “You should do X”). And then be prepared for the bishop to phone you and ask you to help implement your proposal.

Good luck - really!

 

[CarrieH]

SOME piano teachers that I know discourage this kind of thing, labelling all music but classical as “low”

Sounds like my organ teacher. I was doing Bach and Franck and all of that, but I really needed to learn creative hymn-playing and improvisation. “If you can play this [Bach et al.], you can figure that out on your own.” Wrong… I’m still not a very good service-player on organ, but it’s a moot point since my parish church has only a piano.

Anyway, I think that many Catholic parents would love to get their kids into piano/organ lessons, but they’re not quite sure where to start or who to call.

If any of those parents are reading this thread, here are a few places to look for a teacher: start by asking your parish organist/pianist. If they don’t give lessons themselves, they will likely know of someone who does. Your local schools’ music teachers are good resources, as well. If there is a college in the area which has a music program, the college’s piano/organ instructors might have some advanced students who give lessons to beginners. If you go to the college’s website, you should be able to find the instructors’ email addresses. Going with an advanced college student is often less expensive than going with an established teacher, and at the beginning level, these students are perfectly adequate. Many of the music stores have lists of teachers, and some have studios right there at the store. There are several websites which have directories of private music instructors – just do a google search for “private music teachers.” Good luck to you and your future keyboard students, and God bless!

 

[Sarabande]

I also think it would be helpful if Catholic Churches published a list of music teachers in their area who are willing to train a child up in a “Christian” studio, i.e., teachers who teach a child that playing an instrument should be done “for the glory of God,” and give that child opportunities to play in church.

I don’t think that would be a bad idea at all if you brought that up in your parish. You are a musician there playing for mass, so they know you have an interest in keeping the liturgical music program thriving. If you brought it up in the right way, you could make some headway with it. One thing you could probably do, is to do the research, yourself. Find all of the music teachers in the area, get the list made and present it to your parish. The daunting task of getting the list would be done and all they would have to do is post the list.

My piano teacher actively sought “work” for me in churches in our city. When I was in 8th grade, I was “hired” to play piano for a small United Brethren church; I received $5.00 each Sunday, which was a fortune for a young teenager back then!

I think this happened A LOT with musicians of your generation for Protestant and Catholic churches. Our organist at the cathedral is one of the best in the city, not to mention incredibly brilliant with both organ and piano repertoire. He started playing at mass when he was 11, so he learned how to perform works as complex and difficult as Bach to doing hymns equally well. That is a rare trait. Some organists will work very hard at their Bach, but slop the hymns around horriably. They don’t realize that playing a hymn (although simple in some ways) is just a difficult. It takes just as much effort. (Same thing for singers - some singers who don’t have any background in liturgical music have no clue how to sing a hymn or how to chant a psalm, etc.)

And my teacher always PRAYED with all of her students before our recitals, that our music would bring glory to God, not ourselves.

That’s beautiful. I’m also very fortunate to have had a few music mentors who taught me the same thing. One teacher I had (Jewish) used to tell me that God gave me this gift. He can easily take it away from me with the snap of the finger. Always thank Him and be grateful towards Him. I fortunately never had any teachers who scoffed at religion. And, honestly, all of the really good musicians I have known personally and who made international and national or just local careers were always very humble about their talent. Whatever faith they believed in, they always knew that God or whatever higher power they prayed to gave them the gift and to never take it for granted. Every one always talked about thanking Him for that.

Anyway, I think that many Catholic parents would love to get their kids into piano/organ lessons, but they’re not quite sure where to start or who to call. Surely the parishes could provide a list, perhaps even listing those teachers who accept “Beginner” students and charge on a sliding scale. Perhaps some teachers (those who aren’t making a living from it) would be willing to barter services for lessons.

When I taught basic music theory and conducted our children’s voice and bell choir at a Catholic school, the parents really wanted someone to teach piano. I wasn’t a pianist - I was a classically trained singer who was also a musician (haha! joke we have amongst singers as many times we’re looked down upon by other instrumentalists, mainly because there are singers who can’t read music or know nothing of theory. Also because in college they don’t practice as many hours as an instrumentalist - we can’t - our vocal chords wouldn’t hold up with 6-8 hours singing straight - a lot of it is mental practice and study.) Anyway, I knew how to play some piano, so I agreed to teach beginner piano and would recommend other true pianists to teach the more advanced students. I didn’t take much for a lesson since I didn’t consider myself a true pianist. Maybe $10 for a half hour. It paid for my groceries or my train ride to the school as a single lady.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

Any Church document which deals with technology will become outdated. Until another document should come out, that leaves us with the task of trying to adapt, in good faith, the concerns expressed in the document. I see at least two concerns here.

1. Since music is pars integrans (an integral part of) the liturgy, the music should be created by those taking part in the liturgy. Here the concept of “active participation” certainly comes into play.
2. The music should be able to adapt to the events taking place in the particular liturgy, and to exercise a proper leadership role (through dynamic variation of tempo, volume, etc). This is something a live musician on scene can do, but a recording cannot.

I think those are some good principles that might be applied to reasoning through the subject, but I think many on the thread have been overlooking a central principle of Catholic music. Sure, it would be great if we had more organists - that instrument has a special place in Catholic worship and a huge part of our sacred repertoire involves it. That said, though, the organ has been so privileged because it so closely imitates the primary instrument of Catholic sacred music - THE HUMAN VOICE.

If we had ever, as a Church, bothered to implement the reforms of Vatican II, we wouldn’t be left in the lurch by an absent organist because Gregorian chant (and, following it, sacred polyphony) would hold pride of place in our musical repertoire; thus we would always be prepared with a substantial amount of music performable without any instruments whatsoever. On top of this, even if we were left without a church choir on a given Sunday due to illnesses, vacations, etc., we as a congregation might not be able to provide the propers for the Mass but we would at least be able to chant (thus normally a capella) the ordinary of the Mass.

I recognize that this doesn’t directly address the problem of the OP, but as long as we’ve been talking about ways to deal with the problem, I thought I’d offer my two cents.