Non-Negotiable Issues

[Flopfoot]

If something is a mortal sin, it is a mortal sin whether someone says it or not. Same as if it’s not a mortal sin. It doesn’t matter whether Fr. Greely said it or not.

So then, is it a mortal sin? Well, according to Kirane, according to Fr. Greely, Catholic social teaching actually states that it is a mortal sin. Personally, I wouldn’t just believe anything that Kirane or Fr. Greely (or anyone not in a position of authority like the Pope or a Bishop) said was Catholic social teaching unless it either made sense to me (which it doesn’t) or unless I could look it up for myself in an official document. Until I see an encyclical or a passage from the Catechism or something like that saying that it is a mortal sin to vote for , I’m going to assume that Fr. Greely is wrong and that there is no social teaching saying that it is a mortal sin to vote Republican.

Another thing to consider - sin is a matter of decisions. There can never be a case where every possible action you could take is a sin. So if it really was a sin to vote for Republican and a sin to vote for Democrat, then either there must be a third party it wouldn’t be a sin to vote for, or else it wouldn’t be a sin to not vote in that case.

 

[Brendan]

Kirane:

I thought that Father Greeley was an authentic Catholic priest. I noticed that when he was in Los Angeles he was given a warm welcome by Cardinal Roger Mahony, who I guess from the newspapers is an authentic Catholic Cardinal. Anyway, it was reported a few times in the Wanderer newspaper that Father Greeley teaches that it is a mortal sin to vote for a Republican.

Yes, he IS a Catholic Priest.

Next question. Where does the Charism of infallibility reside. Is it in an indiviual priest? Or in all the Bishops who teach what the Pope teaches?

Lumen Gentium #25 might help you out in this matter

 

[1ke]

Kirane:

I thought that Father Greeley was an authentic Catholic priest. I noticed that when he was in Los Angeles he was given a warm welcome by Cardinal Roger Mahony, who I guess from the newspapers is an authentic Catholic Cardinal. Anyway, it was reported a few times in the Wanderer newspaper that Father Greeley teaches that it is a mortal sin to vote for a Republican.

Yes, he is a priest. If, however, he teaches what you state then he is not teaching authentically.

Being a priest, and teaching authentically, are not one-to-one relationships. Priests can be in error, and he clearly is (if your report is true).

 

[wcknight]

Would I vote for an abortionist ? NEVER.
Can I vote for the village idiot, who started a war of false pretenses ??? No

Did I vote ? YES, I voted for neither. I left the top of the ballot blank.

There are some elections when all the choices are bad.

 

[1ke]

Kirane:

Why did we hear that it was a mortal sin to vote for Kerry and should Catholics have ignored that because whoever said so did not have any type of infallibility?

Two words: non-negotiables. That’s what this entire thread is about.

If you will read my post to the OP, you will see that within Catholic teaching there is a difference between issues that are intrinsically a grave evil and therefore can never be supported and those issues on which it is possible to hold various positions (welfare, health care, etc) as to the proper role of government and the method of implementation.

The Church has stated which issues fall into which category. Therefore there is no quandry and there is no impasse.

Kirane:

I could be wrong, but my understanding of the position of the authentic Father Greeley was based on Catholic social issues which had been promulgated in various papal documents.

Social teachings do not fall under the “non-negotiables” because there is no one right or wrong way to implement these ideas. A moral teaching, however, does fall under the non-negotiable category because there are not multiple valid choices on these issues: they are wrong, period.

This is where Fr. Greeley is in error as he has confused one and the other.

It is equally legitimate to hold that the government should pay for everyone’s health care and that health care for those who cannot afford to pay belongs in the private sector through the work of charities.

It is not equally legitimate to hold the position that aborton should be legal and the position that abortion should not be legal. There is only one position that a Catholic can hold.

Please read the Catechism, as it has extensive information on these topics.

Kirane:

I think that it was his contention that the Republican party platform did not reflect the social teachings of the Catholic Church and therefore that was why he had announced in a TV interview with Brian Gumbel that it would be a mortal sin to vote Republican. This was not based on an opinion of his, but was based on Catholic social teaching.

This is not Catholic teaching, as I have explained above.

Kirane:

So Catholics are still stymied.

No, they are not.

Kirane:

They cannot vote for Kerry since he favored abortion, but they cannot vote for Bush because he did not support Catholic social teaching.

See above. Catholic social teaching is not an all or nothing proposition, and these do not fall under the non-negotiables. Fr. Greeley is confused, but Catholics who read the documents of their church are not.

Kirane:

And if they do not vote, then they are not being responsible citizens. So American Catholics are placed by their priests in an impossible situation when it comes to voting.

This is not true, and shows a huge lack of understanding regarding the body of Catholic teaching.

It is allowable to abstain from a particular race if there is not a viable candidate. There is no mortal sin attached to not voting when there is no candidate available that is acceptable.

And, write in candidates are always available to us in the US, so I can vote without voting for two morally unacceptable parties.

 

[aspawloski4th]

St.Sharky:

Oh right, because women that have been raped obviously have no right to an abortion, and its obviously up to a man to tell them this

My mother would be saying the same thing, but even louder than I! My concearn is the baby who cant take care of him self, not thew mother who can murder is murder no matter what the child is a product of. By virtue of the fact the baby cant care for himself, and to varying extents the mother can it is only moral and ethical that the unborn’s right to live supercedes the mother’s right to anything.

 

[aspawloski4th]

Linnyo:

It isn’t unheard of for people to be found guilty of crimes they didn’t commit and the Bible says that it is wrong to kill. The death penalty should be banned.

That same bible requires stoning for some crimes. very selective memory on your part! Properly translated the ten commandments says thoug shalt not shed inocent blood.

 

[buffalo]

Kirane:

Catholics are still stymied because the Roman Catholic priest Father Greeley teaches and has publicly announced that it would be a mortal sin for a Catholic to vote for a Republican. However, it is also a mortal sin for a Catholic to vote for the Democrat candidate who is in favor of abortion, and it is a sin if you are a bad citizen and don’t participate in voting. So, under this scenario, a Catholic loses in any one of the three cases presented to him.

Fr Greeley does not have teaching authority.

 

[buffalo]

St.Sharky:

Oh right, because women that have been raped obviously have no right to an abortion, and its obviously up to a man to tell them this

Sgt,

Perhaps this will help:

Why can’t we love them both?

CHAPTER 29

[**RAPE**](http://www.catholic.net/rcc/loveboth/chapter29.html)

*Pregnant from rape?

Why not abort her?

• Why not allow abortion for rape pregnancies?
  
  We must approach this with great compassion. The woman has been subjected to an ugly trauma, and she needs love, support and help. But she has been the victim of one violent act. Should we now ask her to be a party to a second violent act -that of abortion?
  
  Unquestionably, many would return the violence of killing an innocent baby for the violence of rape. But, before making this decision, remember that most of the trauma has already occurred. She has been raped. That trauma will live with her all her life. Furthermore, this girl did not report for help, but kept this to herself. For several weeks or months, she has thought of little else. Now, she has finally asked for help, has shared her upset, and should be in a supportive situation.
  
  The utilitarian question from the mother’s stand-point is whether or not it would now be better to kill the developing baby within her. But will abortion now be best for her, or will it bring her more harm yet? What has happened and its damage has already occurred. She’s old enough to know and have an opinion as to whether she carries a “baby” or a “blob of protoplasm.”
  
  Will she be able to live comfortably with the memory that she “killed her developing baby”? Or would she ultimately be more mature and more at peace with herself if she could remember that, even though she became pregnant unwillingly, she nevertheless solved her problem by being unselfish, by giving of herself and of her love to an innocent baby, who had not asked to be created, to deliver, perhaps to place for adoption, if she decides that is what is best for her baby.
  
  Compare this memory with the woman who can only look back and say, “I killed my baby.”

 

[vz71]

Kirane:

Why did we hear that it was a mortal sin to vote for Kerry and should Catholics have ignored that because whoever said so did not have any type of infallibility?
I could be wrong, but my understanding of the position of the authentic Father Greeley was based on Catholic social issues which had been promulgated in various papal documents. I think that it was his contention that the Republican party platform did not reflect the social teachings of the Catholic Church and therefore that was why he had announced in a TV interview with Brian Gumbel that it would be a mortal sin to vote Republican. This was not based on an opinion of his, but was based on Catholic social teaching.
So Catholics are still stymied. They cannot vote for Kerry since he favored abortion, but they cannot vote for Bush because he did not support Catholic social teaching. And if they do not vote, then they are not being responsible citizens. So American Catholics are placed by their priests in an impossible situation when it comes to voting.

It is an unfortunate side effect of the church being as large as it is that people can find a crack job priest to back up nearly any position.
It is fortunate that there is only one (the Pope) that has the ability to dictate faith and morals with authority, and he is protected by infallibility.

No Catholic is stymied by the vote.
Father Greeley (the authentic one!) does not have the authority you ascribe to him.
The subject is the non-negotiables - not the authority of some corrupted priest.

 

[midnightstar17]

What I meant by my post was, Ike, is that you could have gone about the post in different langauge. I was offended by the language you used but not the answer you gave. You probably all think I’m terrible so I’m just going to leave and you can all be happy.

Jenny

 

[1ke]

midnightstar17:

What I meant by my post was, Ike, is that you could have gone about the post in different langauge. I was offended by the language you used but not the answer you gave. You probably all think I’m terrible so I’m just going to leave and you can all be happy.

Jenny

No, Jenny, I do not think you are terrible and no one here wants you to leave.

We want you to ask questions, clarify and defend what you think is right, consider what we’ve said is wrong and why we’ve said so, and grow in your faith.

If I offended you, I am sorry because that was not my intent. I could likely have used different words, and that probably comes from the fact that you are much younger than me and I am more used to disucssions online with experienced debators.

I’m not sure what you really wanted, maybe someone to agree that these things you posted were ok? I don’t know, but they aren’t ok and that is why you got the replies that you did.

You have to make sure you do not take things personally because sometimes things come across harshly on the internet/email/forms when they are not intended to be at all. You cannot hear tone of voice or see facial expressions, you have no history with the person, so you assume the worst when in fact the person did not mean anything like what you assume.

Now, come on Jenny, post back some more questions/comments on why you disagree with the content of what I said.

 

[whatevergirl]

Let’s name the three things that need to exist in order for a sin to be considered ‘mortal,’ shall we? There seems to be some confusion on here to how it is defined.

In order for a sin to be mortal, it must meet three conditions:

Mortal sin is a sin of grave matter
Mortal sin is committed with full knowledge of the sinner
Mortal sin is committed with deliberate consent of the sinner

Okay–so… to say that all people who vote for a Democratic or whatever candidate that appears to be immoral, are mortally sinning, is a bit ridiculous, quite frankly. I think quite a few people have no clue of what a candidate stands for, and they choose what they think would be the ‘lesser of two evils.’ I didn’t vote for Kerry, but to say that the Confession lines should be full of Kerry voters, is just way out there. You have to have INTENT to sin, and keep sinning. I think of times in my lfie when ignorance led me to a particular opinion on something, not because I didn’t care what God thinks, and I’m gonna ‘do it anyways.’ And, there have been times in my life when I have not cared what God thinks (during my time of straying from the Church–thank goodness for Confession and God’s awesome mercy!!) and I based my decision making on that. (thattime of my life falls into more of a mortal sinning category)

So, just because someone voted for Kerry, even if they agree with abortion, doesn’t mean they mortally sinned. You might not fully understand that abortion is evil. You might not understand that it’s murder. (thank to Planned Parenthood and its counterparts) So, you might be naive on the fact that abortion harms babies, and doesn’t protect women. It is entirely possible to go through life, completely ignorant about certain issues.

Better be safe than sorry, and head to Confession, LOL, but still. Voting in and of itself doesn’t stem from mortal sin or thinking. It can often stem from ignorance, popular media, etc…God knows we are offered a lot of propaganda that is opposed to Him. So, I truly believe that if you voted for Kerry, even if you agreed with his stance on many issues, it wouldn’t automatically mean you’re in a state of mortal sin. NOW–IF YOU KNOW THE CANDIDATE IS IMMORAL, AND YOU ARE VOTING FOR HIM FOR YOUR OWN SELFISH PURPOSES, THEN YOU’RE DELIBERATELY AND WITH INTENT, MORTALLY SINNING. See the difference?

If the above 3 components were there however during the voting process, then it would be considered a mortal sin.

 

[whatevergirl]

I just wanted to add…that not ONE but ALL THREE THINGS MUST EXIST AT THE SAME TIME IN ORDER FOR THE SIN TO BE DEEMED MORTAL. Not just grave matter, not just intent…but all three. I saw a post that suggested it’s a mortal sin if it’s grave. There has to be all three compentents at one time. Sorry, just wanted to add that. LOL :angel1:

 

[Kirane]

whatevergirl:

Okay–so… to say that all people who vote for a Democratic or whatever candidate that appears to be immoral, are mortally sinning, is a bit ridiculous, quite frankly. :

But if you die with a mortal sin on your soul, you will go to hell and suffer eternal fire and damnation for all eternity, is that not correct? Why then do I see where a Catholic priest, Father A. Greeley, is announcing on an interview with Brian Gumbel, on national TV, that it would be a mortal sin to vote for a Republican?

 

[vz71]

Kirane:

But if you die with a mortal sin on your soul, you will go to hell and suffer eternal fire and damnation for all eternity, is that not correct? Why then do I see where a Catholic priest, Father A. Greeley, is announcing on an interview with Brian Gumbel, on national TV, that it would be a mortal sin to vote for a Republican?

Because he is seeking attention.
The priest has no authority in this matter.
This too has been discussed at length. You may want to review the message stream.

 

[1ke]

Kirane:

But if you die with a mortal sin on your soul, you will go to hell and suffer eternal fire and damnation for all eternity, is that not correct? Why then do I see where a Catholic priest, Father A. Greeley, is announcing on an interview with Brian Gumbel, on national TV, that it would be a mortal sin to vote for a Republican?

Asked and answered.

Father Greeley either honestly doesn’t undestand church teaching or purposely misstates it. Fr. Greeley is simply wrong.

 

[Scott_Waddell]

1ke:

Asked and answered.

Father Greeley either honestly doesn’t undestand church teaching or purposely misstates it. Fr. Greeley is simply wrong.

And the proof of this is quite glaring. A mortal sin to vote for any Republican without consideration of the candidates personal integrity, policy or behavior? Mortal sin without consideration of culpability? Greeley appears to be an example of abstracting one’s self into la-la land. Has anyone written the papal nuncio?

Scott

 

[whatevergirl]

Kirane:

But if you die with a mortal sin on your soul, you will go to hell and suffer eternal fire and damnation for all eternity, is that not correct? Why then do I see where a Catholic priest, Father A. Greeley, is announcing on an interview with Brian Gumbel, on national TV, that it would be a mortal sin to vote for a Republican?

Again, read my post above about what ‘makes up’ a mortal sin…if the person is ignorant, it wouldn’t be a mortal sin, then.

 

[JimCalvin]

St.Sharky:

Unfortunately some cells that may or may not grow into life dont get any representation here seeing as they are only alive on a molecular level.

By not giving that woman choice, and by forcing her to have that child you are lowering her to a sub human level, while she is probably feeling used and subhuman anyway after being raped.

The child, person, is alive at a human being level and spiritual level. Consider Christ’s Incarnation. When did He assume human form?

I submit to you that a woman having a child is a great creative gift of God our Almighty Father. If your sympathy is really for the woman, ask yourself how she will feel when she is confronted with her own part in murder.

Please, ask the Lord to open your eyes. Spend five minutes before the Blessed Sacrament and meditate on the rightness or wrongness of abortion.

Place your trust in our Blessed Lord and be at peace.

-Jim