Non Practicing Catholics Receiving Communion

[doanli]

This touches on something biiiiiig, for me at least. I don’t want to sound high-horsey, judgemental, or anything. However, it irks me to the core when I see people getting communion when I know their soul isn’t in a state of grace. And it isn’t above me being too nosey and digging, you just “know”.

Lets not forget that we are recieving the BODY and BLOOD of our Lord. Have some reverence. For the most part though… this isn’t something that Priests ever bring up, or something that is taught or highlighted. Which I guess isn’t the fault of the people. In my 3 years at my parish I have seen very small numbers go to confession. Either I live amongst saints or… And yet everybody takes communion. I guess in some ways its good, people hunger for the Eucharist! Their Catholic upbringing has let them down though.

I don’t think you are being judgmental at all…and I am so sick and tired of hearing that–it is abused.

Let’s put it this way. You see people go up to Communion who you know are taking birth control pills, living with someone they’re not married to, or not even Catholic.

Admonishing someone for committing this sin-- taking our Lord when they are in such a state and they know better is an ACT of Mercy, not being judgmental.

 

[tweetymom]

I believe this post will be on topic, but may take a slightly different direction. I am not a “non-practicing Catholic”. I am a former Catholic. Let me state that there are a number of reasons for this condition, none of which need to be addressed in this post. I am a Christian. I also admit that the foundation of my faith was laid down by the good nuns and priests I had through 12 years of parochial school.
Now the part that is germaine to this thread.
A number of years ago the young teen-aged son of friends was killed in a motorcycle accident. We arrived at their house, along with many others, shortly after the accident. Among those present was the parish priest of the family. He was a man a few years younger than myself. At one point we found ourselves alone on the back stoop of the house engaged in conversation. I related to him, briefly, my spiritual journey, giving him some of the details and my reasons for leaving the Catholic Church. I told him, honestly, that although I disagreed with some of the teachings of the Catholic Church, I held no animosity toward it or any of its members. Indeed, many of my best friends are practicing Catholics. I did tell this priest that the one thing that bothered me about my departure from the Catholic Church was that I was no longer welcome at the Communion table. I explained that although my view of Communion was not the same as the Catholic teaching, I still found the Lord’s Supper to be very meaningful and a means of God’s grace.
Imagine my surprise when this young priest placed his hand on my shoulder and told me that at the funeral Mass in a few days, at Communion time, I should come to him and he would serve me Communion! In light of the Catholic Church’s teaching on the subject, I asked him how this was possible. His explanation was that it was important for Christian brothers and sisters to feel at home with each other and that this action would facilitate that.
Now, having read these forum messages for over a year, I know that most of you will probably jump all over this priest and condem his action. So be it. I fully expect that. But let me just say that taking Communion that day was special for me, almost healing in nature, helping me to remember that although, officially the catholic Church and i may have our differences, I still have brothers and sisters within it.

I think the Priest was very kind and right.

 

[baltobetsy]

And I will keep telling people they can’t take our Lord until they confess.

So, how does it work out when you do that?

Betsy

 

[Newbie2]

Yes, you can just know. Think about when a close friend or relative possibly gets involved with the wrong person. You just have a feeling - but for all you know they are actually really wonderful people. But usually you are right. Almost the same kinda thing.

Wow. This is perhaps the most arrogant thing I’ve ever seen posted here on the CAF. Someone here “has a feeling” and can know another’s state of Grace.

In any case, everyone keeps going on about how they might be going to a different parish to confess etc. Well, not in my case. Here, confession is either 30 minutes before mass or by appointment. And we are the only Parish within about 2 hours drive. And I hardly ever see anybody before mass. And by appointment - yeah, right, you telling me everybody else just makes an appointment? They care that much that they’d rather make an appointment than just easily go before mass? Sorry, and this will sound un-PC, but that just isn’t the truth. People just do not go to confession. If they did we wouldnt be on this thread would we.

Wow again. You have the powers to be able to tell whether or not someone has gone to confession. Clearly you must be a god.

The charitable thing might be to assume they do go to confession, sure. But if its clear that they do not, then the correct thing to do is to make a deal out of it. Charitable goes out the window for me if our Lord is being recieved when he shouldnt be. I am more tired of people not having confessed in over ten years - a reality - and yet still getting communion. More tired than you are of people who rightfully complain that its happening.

So where exactly in the plan of salvation do you fit it, being able to dictate who should and who should not receive? Sure, respectfully ask the priest about it. But “make a deal out of it”? Just what sort of authority do you have regarding this matter?

I agree with your last paragraph though. One hundred percent. But the simple fact is that we are told to admonish those who sin. And I will keep telling people they can’t take our Lord until they confess. Until there is a teaching that says I should do otherwise. Too many people take it so lightly, or say things like “be concerned for your own soul instead of looking at others”. Rubbish. Jesus didn’t preach that we should just turn a blind eye. He came to divide, remember. I am not saying one should jump up and shout in the pews or have a boxing match with someone over it. But charitably and nicely tell them that the teaching is that unless you are in a state of grace you should not recieve communion. And in the meantime sure pray for people, set an example.

Again, Wow. I hope that you can someday realize how you sound, as if you know what the state of Grace of another person happens to be. Arrogant doesn’t even approach it. Words escape me.

BTW, how does one “charitably” tell someone else that they are unfit for communion i.e. are in an unacceptable state of Grace? Can’t be done, unless you’re a priest and/or have been asked by the person to give your opinion.

The bottom line is, you cannot know for certain that someone has not sought confession elsewhere or at a different time; therefor you cannot know their state of Grace. For that matter as well, you cannot be certain that a person who did go to confession did or did not receive absolution, can you? It’s possible that someone THAT YOU SAW go to confession decided not to go through with the sacrament or that the priest didn’t absolve them, isn’t it?

Well?

If you weren’t in the confessional, you simply don’t know; you’re making an assumption, just as you make an assumption that because you didn’t see someone going to confession that they didn’t do so. And such assumptions are the height of arrogance and condescention, methinks.

 

[NewsTheMan]

I take your ad hominem attacks; very well.

But I don’t think its arrogance. I know when people are confessing. It isn’t a power. I have already explained myself. Deductive logic, observation, some reasoning and knowledge of my community. If I were a stranger in a parish it would be different. I am a regular, active member. Don’t try tell me in your daily life you sit and think everybody is a saint. Rubbish. That to me is arrogant and also a big fat lie. Hate the sin, love the sinner.

How does one tell another they are unfit? Simple. Say, friend/brother/sister/whoever have you been to confession lately? It’s just that, the teachings of the Church dictate that you cannot recieve communion unless you have, and while I am not judging you, it is prudent to not recieve communion lest you disobey the Church and worst of all treat the Eucharist without the respect it deserves.

I would rather be highly arrogant and condescending ten lifetimes over than one more person who hasn’t been to confession in ten years take the body and blood of our Lord. Sure, I am not a priest. But since when were we to sit back and do nothing? Since when were we not allowed to tell people the teaching. Even more, if our priest isn’t mentioning it we should tell our friends and community.

The bottom line, for me, is that maybe I don’t know someone’s state of grace - but I’d rather be certain they were in a state of grace than unsure if they are not. And not in an arrogant “Oh, now that I know you are in a state of grace I allow you to receive communion” way which is clearly how you perceive things. More so that I am sure that our Lord is being taken with reverence, with knowledge of what it means, with respect, with a pure and contrite heart. That way, everybody wins. Jesus Wins, the person wins, our Church as a whole wins, and thus I win.

 

[Newbie2]

I take your ad hominem attacks; very well.

No, we’re responding to what you say you do, not to you directly.

But I don’t think its arrogance. I know when people are confessing. It isn’t a power. I have already explained myself. Deductive logic, observation, some reasoning and knowledge of my community. If I were a stranger in a parish it would be different. I am a regular, active member. Don’t try tell me in your daily life you sit and think everybody is a saint. Rubbish. That to me is arrogant and also a big fat lie. Hate the sin, love the sinner.

No, but I don’t try to figure out who is fit or unfit for communion.What I DO is to give them the benefit of the doubt if I’m aware of another’s sins, the benefit that says that I don’t presume to know the state of their soul.

How does one tell another they are unfit? Simple. Say, friend/brother/sister/whoever have you been to confession lately? It’s just that, the teachings of the Church dictate that you cannot recieve communion unless you have, and while I am not judging you, it is prudent to not recieve communion lest you disobey the Church and worst of all treat the Eucharist without the respect it deserves.

And do you tell an individual once, or do you keep asking them week after week. This might be a mitigating factor in how arrogant your actions seem to appear. Nothing wrong, in the proper time and proper circumstance in helping to remind or inform someone if you think they are ignorant of the church’s teaching in this area. But that wouldn’t be at mass IMHO.

I would rather be highly arrogant and condescending ten lifetimes over than one more person who hasn’t been to confession in ten years take the body and blood of our Lord.

Well, if the shoe fits… But seriously, where do you think the line should be drawn as to where we should and can involve ourselves in other’s relationship between themselves and their Lord?

Sure, I am not a priest. But since when were we to sit back and do nothing? Since when were we not allowed to tell people the teaching. Even more, if our priest isn’t mentioning it we should tell our friends and community.

Have you spoken to your priest about this?

The bottom line, for me, is that maybe I don’t know someone’s state of grace - but I’d rather be certain they were in a state of grace than unsure if they are not. And not in an arrogant “Oh, now that I know you are in a state of grace I allow you to receive communion” way which is clearly how you perceive things.

Well…that’s pretty much how you described it.

More so that I am sure that our Lord is being taken with reverence, with knowledge of what it means, with respect, with a pure and contrite heart. That way, everybody wins. Jesus Wins, the person wins, our Church as a whole wins, and thus I win.

You know, have you ever considered asking the priest or deacon in having a lecture or teaching or homily on this matter? Or asked them if you could do one yourself?

 

[NewsTheMan]

Yes, you did respond to me directly not just what I was saying.
You seem to, quite ironically, in your arrogance taken things out of context.

I never said that I sit and decide or analyse who is fit or unfit for communion. If I’m sitting there going “Wait a minute, wasn’t XYZ drunk last night and doesn’t he frequently have sex with his girlfriend? And yet, he hasnt confessed before mass and yet he is in line”. I am not analysing every single person.

Again, you perceive me to be a Hitler-like figure raising my fist at annoying who dare take communion - week after week month after month! I am not on trial here, I don’t need to tell you what course of action I take (if any) so that you may arrogantly let me off the hook for my own apparent arrogance. That is for a different discussion.

The line should be drawn when things are clear, self evident. If I know something, I just know it. Don’t give me this exuse about oh they probably go somewhere else etc etc etc. You know peoples character in your parish, you know who goes and who doesn’t go. Maybe not everyone, but a lot of people you do know. We should involve ourselves when it isn’t merely the relationship between one individual and the Lord. There is a whole lot more at stake. False teaching (that person might tell others its okay), scandal (similar reason), sacrilege, poor knowledge, etc etc.

 

[NewsTheMan]

Oh, and the title of the thread kind of gives it all away, anyway.

Non practicing Catholic’s. Do non-practicing Catholics go to confession? By definition they do not. Or else they would be practicing.

So either you think that non-practicing Catholics go to confession, which is wrong.
Or you think non-practicing Catholics should receive the Lord, which is wrong.
Or you think they should recieve the Lord, but nobody should question it, which is wrong.
Or, like me, you believe non-practicing Catholics should not recieve the Lord until such time that they become a practicing Catholic.

 

[baltobetsy]

Tell us, please, News the Man, how it is received when you correct someone.

 

[NewsTheMan]

Tell us, please, News the Man, how it is received when you correct someone.

And what does this matter? Are you attempting to discredit me? Are you saying I am wrong? I don’t know what outcome you expect - either you will think me a liar or arrogant, so what does it matter?

I have privately informed about 5 people. 1 guy told me I was wrong, because God wants us to take all sacrements and they are not connected. 1 guy told me it doesn’t really bother him. And 3 girls (all sisters, coincidentally) told me they had heard but weren’t sure but they wouldn’t take from now on. I then said they should go to confession, not just for theological or practical reasons but also cos it feels good inside, but they said they are too embarassed and would rather go without. And that was the end of that.

It is only my duty to tell them; not to enforce. I did what I felt was right. And it was right. I welcome arrogance if thats the case. Because I know I’m not arrogant.

 

[baltobetsy]

And what does this matter? Are you attempting to discredit me? Are you saying I am wrong? I don’t know what outcome you expect - either you will think me a liar or arrogant, so what does it matter?

If you’re getting good results, others might be persuaded to do the same. Why would you immediately conclude that your answering this question would discredit you?

 

[Newbie2]

And what does this matter? Are you attempting to discredit me? Are you saying I am wrong? I don’t know what outcome you expect - either you will think me a liar or arrogant, so what does it matter?

I have privately informed about 5 people. 1 guy told me I was wrong, because God wants us to take all sacrements and they are not connected. 1 guy told me it doesn’t really bother him. And 3 girls (all sisters, coincidentally) told me they had heard but weren’t sure but they wouldn’t take from now on. I then said they should go to confession, not just for theological or practical reasons but also cos it feels good inside, but they said they are too embarassed and would rather go without. And that was the end of that.

It is only my duty to tell them; not to enforce. I did what I felt was right. And it was right. I welcome arrogance if thats the case. Because I know I’m not arrogant.

I think it’s a legitimate question; something I was wondering about as well. Why would you assume that other posters would assume that you’re “a liar or arrogant”? I too am genuinely interested in how people respond to your efforts.

Another question, if you don’t mind. With these 5 people, did you only inform them once or do you intend to do so again? It seems like “and that was the end of that” means not, but I don’t want to make an assumption. That would be arrogant.

Also, why do you feel it’s your duty to do so? Isn’t that the priest’s job?

 

[Rachel_1]

Hi.

As we have seen often with public figures in obvious situations of scandal regarding their political support of abortion and other non-negotiables of the Catholic faith, often the bishops are silent on this. Why?

While a Catholic in mortal sin may or may not speak with their priest, it is not up to us, others of the laity, to make judgment on them. These wayward brothers in Christ may not be so wayward as we believe, despite what we think we know personally about them. The person could have attended the Sacrament of Reconciliation elsewhere, or have made a suitable act of contrition.

Likewise, it is very uncommon for the ordinary ministers to withhold communion. Although they have this right, the priests know that, as we should remind ourselves, that judgment is reserved for God on that’s person’s worthiness to receive the Body and Blood. For a minister to withhold the Eucharist without clear and undeniable unrepentance (or knowledge that the person is not Catholic) may be just as sinful as receiving unworthily.

And remember that, even as a Catholic receiving the Eucharist in a state of grace, we still pray, “Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I will be healed.”

 

[jgbuff]

MASS is not about what you get out of it. its about what you give into it. Which means keeping your focus on God, and praying to your fullest. God wants your full attention. When someone gets distracted by what others are doing, such as who should or should not be taking communion, or what others are wearing who is whispering, or which kids are being loud etc. etc…this takes your focus off of God’s Mass.

Only God really knows who is supposed to be recieving communion, the judgement is his and his alone.

 

[quiet52]

When we “know” that a single mother is cohabiting and is not abstaining, and is regularly receiving the Eucharist, we ache for the bad example she is providing for her children and we ache because of her receiving unworthily. We pray for the family. We hopefully have the courage to approach her about it and the wisdom to know what to say to her, in private of course. That is an act of charity, for her and for her children, because we care about their souls. This is not a matter of being distracted from Mass or being a busybody or judging a person. It is about caring for her, knowing that her lifestyle is immoral (we do judge sins, not the sinner). We don’t “leave it to the priest” – the priests know less about what the parishioners are doing than we do.

 

[former_Catholic]

Now I know we can’t judge one another, but it would seem logical to assume that since they don’t know what they’re doing at Mass, they probably don’t go too often. Yet, of course, they received communion.

Actually, I don’t think it is at all logical to assume anything at all about a bereaved family or a family of the intention of the mass other than that they are going through an extraordinarily difficult and emotionally traumatic time in life. Bereaved families often generally mentally blank out entirely from complete overwhelm, seeing mouths move while not necessarily being able to bring the spoken words into consciousness at all, and often completely and blankly following the motions, leads, and prods of others nearby while attempting to hold themselves together and not stumble through their tears or break down completely into grief and emotional crisis.

As for the supposedly devout faithful in attendance whose focus strays from the presence of Christ in the mass to center instead on other mass attendees, they clearly demonstrate their own sorry disrespect for the presence of Christ in the mass by doing this, and so are hardly qualified to challenge the respect, devotion and faith of anyone else. In other words, when one sees Christ standing there, there is nothing and nobody on the face of this earth that can beak that focus. The people in the front row could be standing on their heads or painting themselves blue and it wouldn’t ever break one’s focus on Christ or ever matter in the slightest.

 

[Newbie2]

When we “know” that a single mother is cohabiting and is not abstaining, and is regularly receiving the Eucharist, we ache for the bad example she is providing for her children and we ache because of her receiving unworthily. We pray for the family. We hopefully have the courage to approach her about it and the wisdom to know what to say to her, in private of course. That is an act of charity, for her and for her children, because we care about their souls. This is not a matter of being distracted from Mass or being a busybody or judging a person. It is about caring for her, knowing that her lifestyle is immoral (we do judge sins, not the sinner). We don’t “leave it to the priest” – the priests know less about what the parishioners are doing than we do.

OK, and what if a simple, respectful reminder doesn’t work. One of the posters seems to have failed in his 5 attempts (not his fault) in “approaching” them about it.

What do you suggest then? One attempt and give up? Badger them about it? Something inbetween?

BTW I have a bit of a problem the way you put “we judge sins”. Are WE in a position to judge anything?

 

[CAnnElizabeth]

Yes, you can just know. Think about when a close friend or relative possibly gets involved with the wrong person. You just have a feeling - but for all you know they are actually really wonderful people. But usually you are right. Almost the same kinda thing.

In any case, everyone keeps going on about how they might be going to a different parish to confess etc. Well, not in my case. Here, confession is either 30 minutes before mass or by appointment. And we are the only Parish within about 2 hours drive. And I hardly ever see anybody before mass. And by appointment - yeah, right, you telling me everybody else just makes an appointment? They care that much that they’d rather make an appointment than just easily go before mass? Sorry, and this will sound un-PC, but that just isn’t the truth. People just do not go to confession. If they did we wouldnt be on this thread would we.

The charitable thing might be to assume they do go to confession, sure. But if its clear that they do not, then the correct thing to do is to make a deal out of it. Charitable goes out the window for me if our Lord is being recieved when he shouldnt be. I am more tired of people not having confessed in over ten years - a reality - and yet still getting communion. More tired than you are of people who rightfully complain that its happening.

I agree with your last paragraph though. One hundred percent. But the simple fact is that we are told to admonish those who sin. And I will keep telling people they can’t take our Lord until they confess. Until there is a teaching that says I should do otherwise. Too many people take it so lightly, or say things like “be concerned for your own soul instead of looking at others”. Rubbish. Jesus didn’t preach that we should just turn a blind eye. He came to divide, remember. I am not saying one should jump up and shout in the pews or have a boxing match with someone over it. But charitably and nicely tell them that the teaching is that unless you are in a state of grace you should not recieve communion. And in the meantime sure pray for people, set an example.

This next quote is from the Catechism:
**1457 **According to the Church’s command, “after having attained the age of discretion, each of the faithful is bound by an obligation faithfully to confess serious sins at least once a year.”

We are not obligated to go to confession before reception of Communion unless we are in a state of serious sin. You have no possible way of knowing the state of someone’s soul as that is strictly between the person and God, and a confessor if involved.

Even if someone were to commit what you consider a mortal sin on the doorstep of your church, you would not know their interior motive or culpability. It’s just simply not possible. For you to assume that someone is in the state of serious sin AND receiving Communion is the height of presumption and judgment. Just because you don’t happen to see someone going to confession, or because you presume to know what their daily habits/sinfulness are like, you feel obligated to safeguard the Eucharist?

I’m seriously surprised someone hasn’t decked you or at least told you (loudly) that it’s none of your business, which it isn’t.

I’ve lived in my parish for ten years and not gone THERE to confession once. I have a spiritual director 150 miles away – and I receive the sacrament of penance in another local parish. Would you stop me from going to Communion?

If you are privately and charitably advising someone that one must be in the state of grace before reception of the Eucharist, that’s peachy – although I’d be very, very surprised that the Catholic you’ve singled out didn’t already know that.

If there is a public liturgy where non-Catholics are likely to attend (wedding, funeral) or during the Christmas and Easter seasons when non-practicing Catholics show up, it is up to the presider to ensure that our customs are known.

I’m sure you think your motives are good and that you’re doing Jesus and the Church a favor by your intrusion, but you are acting without any real knowledge of the state of a person’s soul. I’m frankly appalled at both your position and your actions.

 

[former_Catholic]

When we “know” that a single mother is cohabiting and is not abstaining, and is regularly receiving the Eucharist, we ache for the bad example she is providing for her children and we ache because of her receiving unworthily. We pray for the family. We hopefully have the courage to approach her about it and the wisdom to know what to say to her, in private of course. That is an act of charity, for her and for her children, because we care about their souls. This is not a matter of being distracted from Mass or being a busybody or judging a person. It is about caring for her, knowing that her lifestyle is immoral (we do judge sins, not the sinner). We don’t “leave it to the priest” – the priests know less about what the parishioners are doing than we do.

And we certainly know that cohabiting (sharing a house) must certainly constitute “sin.” .
And when we face God at the end of our lives, we ourselves will experience the true joy of having to answer to God for having represented Christ to that woman and her children so devoutly and faithfully… that they entirely gave up on their struggle to believe in Christ at all and so ended up complete athiests in life.

Since when did *“Lord I am not worthy…” *become “Hey you over there in the front row are not worthy…”?

 

[NewsTheMan]

Well, I don’t know what the point of your posting that teaching from the Church. Yes, we are required to go to confession at least once a year, but we are also required to be free from mortal sin if we are to receive communion. Which you pointed out.

There is a whole lot wrong with your post, and I’m not sure I care enough to point it all out. Suffice it to say that you presume a whole lot, you make silly points (i.e. after I post about telling people in private who aren’t aware of the teaching, you say thats peachy, but still make a post about it), and you say things like you’re surprised someone hasn’t decked me? Firstly, not likely, but secondly, advocacy of violence much?

I don’t stop anybody from communion. This is my biggest problem with people like you who are objecting to me and keep going on about the wrong I am doing. I am not stopping anybody from getting communion. I am making sure they know the rules. And if they are a friend, I make sure they follow the rules if I can, because thats what friends do. If a stranger, I just let them know. Once again - I am not a Hitler like figure who dictates who may or may not recieve communion.

And its ridiculous to say that if I saw a person committing what I thought was a mortal sin outside Church etc etc. Firstly, committing a mortal sin isn’t subjective. I don’t “think up” mortal sins. Secondly, and most importantly, that is of course up to the Lord to give a rightful and just judgement. However, if I see it happen I have every right to think that it isn’t wise to get communion if they are in mortal sin. I don’t see any other way around it? Thats like telling the Church not to publish the rule because they have no idea whether or not someone is in mortal sin or not and must thus rule that everybody is actual in a state of grace. Rubbish man. If you see someone murdering someone you don’t sit and say “Oh well, probably has reasons not for me to stop this crime!”. Rubbish. Stop taking everything out of context because you want to be a hero. It’s as simple as me saying that people shouldn’t take communion when in a state of mortal sin. And if I think that for some reason somebody is, without judging or condemning I will remind them of the teaching. Just like we get reminded from our parents, friends, catechists, priests, all the time of certain Church teachings. You can’t just all of a sudden say simple Church teaching isn’t for me to privately inform someone of. If that is the case, I or you or anybody shouldn’t remind friends, family members, whoever of Church teachings because apparently thats arrogance or presumption. Using your line of argument anybody could have a justification for anything and thus we should let anybody have their way and say nothing.

Stop trying to make it more than it is. I don’t feel obligated to safeguard the Eucharist, or to do anything. But it IS a big deal, because the teaching of the Church in the year 2010 is being more and more forgotten. And so, I feel that it is something good to remind, without judgement. Heck, I don’t actually care what the state of your soul is. Learn the teaching. All the better.