Non-Religious Apologetics

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Two points.
  1. The words “separation of Church and state” don’t occur in the Constitution, but the 1st Amendment does, which ultimately amounts to the same thing. But of course, the separation of Church and State does not imply the establishment of a secular religion; obviously the laws are going to reflect the values of a voting constituency whether they are religious or not. The way this friend talks, you would think there was something wrong with elected officials supporting policies that reflect their constituencies’ desires–which is prepostrous.
  2. Whatever the quality of her faith, this friend does not sound like the most productive dialogue partner.
 
I… wow. Thank you all SO much. This has been wonderful of all of you.

I have just one teeny little thing left to ask. When I earlier spoke to my friend about Proposition 8 (Californian bill for limiting marriage to one man and one woman), she turned on me and started declaring, “Church and State! Church and State!!”

…Yeah. I don’t think she’s much of a Catholic, either. Help?
Similar laws were constitutionally passed to eliminate polygamy in Utah effecting the Mormons during the early years. To redefine marriage, by the way, would open the door to revisit this long settled law - then why not legal polygamy?

I don’t see the Chruch State issue here. The modern concept of Church / State was originally used by Protestants to keep the government from in any way assisting parochial schools in the hope that they could starve them out of existence. Their same logic has been seized and expanded by secularists to limit all public religious expression. That battle goes on. But I think the correct understanding of Church State is that the government will not adopt or favor a particular religion as the early colonies did.
 
My Friend and I, both Catholic, are having a debate over “gay marriage”. Is there a nonreligious point of emphasis I can use? I gave her a copy of the Catholic Answers Special Report,“Gay Marriage”, and she’s already claiming most of the sources as biased and therefore invalid.
Your friend can refer to the following websites:
[."
Dr. Spitzer was at the center of the 1973 American Psychiatric Association’s (APA) decision to remove homosexuality from its list of mental disorders, the DSM (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual). Talking to former homosexuals at the 1999 APA annual meeting resulted in Dr. Spitzer’s new interest in studying the effectiveness of sexual reorientation therapies.
“Like most psychiatrists,” said Dr. Spitzer, "I thought that homosexual behavior could be resisted, but sexual orientation could not be changed. I now believe that’s untrue - some people can and do change
](http://www.pfox.org/spitzer.htm)

NARTH

Read what this craze can do from another perspective:
The Egg and Sperm - Civil Union Compromise

If you allow same-sex marriage, then you must also allow Zoophiliacs the right to Human-animal marriage.

Everyone should have “equal rights”, even Pederasty advocates.

Hope this helps.
 
My Friend and I, both Catholic, are having a debate over “gay marriage”. Is there a nonreligious point of emphasis I can use? I gave her a copy of the Catholic Answers Special Report,“Gay Marriage”, and she’s already claiming most of the sources as biased and therefore invalid.
**First, I doubt she has read it; second, you know that she does not agree with Church teaching. Because of the latter, anything you say or direct will become invalid for her.

Think back to the 1960s, when illegitimacy and cohabitation were relatively rare. At that time many asked how one young woman having a baby out of wedlock or living with an unmarried man could hurt their neighbors. Now we know the negative social effects these two living arrangements have spawned: lower marriage rates, more instability in the marriages that are enacted, more fatherless children, increased rates of domestic violence and poverty, and a vast expansion of welfare state expenses.

Would gay marriage be bad for society? The entire definition of marriage would change after thousands of years. This itself will change the concept of family which has been a staple of continuity in any era. Families begat children to create future generations of human beings who become an integral part of a social structure. As for the notion of ‘creating’ the prospect for ‘stable’ gay relationships via marriage, statistics have shown (in the Netherlands, no less) that even among stable homosexual partnerships, men have an average of eight partners per year outside their “monogamous” relationship. Because of that, other types of relationships will need to be considered as legitimate, such as threesomes or more. This already is in the courts of Europe and has been upheld as acceptable.

Would gay marriage be bad for children? While gay marriage would encourage adoption of children by homosexual couples, which may be preferable to foster care, some lesbian couples want to have children through anonymous sperm donations, which means some children will be created purposely without knowledge of one of their biological parents. Research has also shown that children raised by homosexuals were more dissatisfied with their own gender, suffer a greater rate of molestation within the family, and have homosexual experiences more often. Gay marriage will also encourage teens who are unsure of their sexuality to embrace a lifestyle that suffers high rates of suicide, depression, HIV, drug abuse, STDs, and other pathogens. Acceptance of gay marriage will strengthen the notion that marriage is primarily about adult yearnings for intimacy and is not essentially connected to raising children. Children will be hurt by those who will too easily bail out of a marriage because it is not “fulfilling” to them.

Common sense tells us that it would be destructive of the moral fabric of society. We are already having trouble maintaining stability in both marriage and family life. This will only exasperate the problem further.

You could direct your friend to some of these sites and let her read them herself - if she is honest, the light bulb will click:

pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/87/6/869?maxtoshow=&HITS=80&hits=80&RESULTFORMAT=&searchid=1077133347863_11926&stored_search=&FIRSTINDEX=10&sortspec=relevance&volume=87&journalcode=pediatrics

hivandhepatitis.com/recent/2008/082908_b.html**
 
My Friend and I, both Catholic, are having a debate over “gay marriage”. Is there a nonreligious point of emphasis I can use?
Nope.

Edit: To elaborate; the only route you can take is to go the same way as other people in this forum. Pretend like the separation of Church and State in this Country doesn’t mean very much and impose the will of your religion on my family.
 
Think back to the 1960s, when illegitimacy and cohabitation were relatively rare. At that time many asked how one young woman having a baby out of wedlock or living with an unmarried man could hurt their neighbors. Now we know the negative social effects these two living arrangements have spawned: lower marriage rates, more instability in the marriages that are enacted, more fatherless children, increased rates of domestic violence and poverty, and a vast expansion of welfare state expenses.
Correlation does not mean causation. You see a similar trend with Black rights. That said, it is more domestic violence reported and decline in welfare state expenses relative to pop.
[Would gay marriage be bad for society? The entire definition of marriage would change after thousands of years.
Thousands of years? Umm no. Your definition of marriage has only existed in Western Christian society for only a few decades. Prior to that, you had women as little beter than house slaves. Of course, this is ignoring marriage in other cultures where polygamy may be the norm etc etc.
[This itself will change the concept of family which has been a staple of continuity in any era. Families begat children to create future generations of human beings who become an integral part of a social structure.
Wrong again. The nuclear family promoted by conservatives, is only recent. Like above, it varies across cultures.
As for the notion of ‘creating’ the prospect for ‘stable’ gay relationships via marriage, statistics have shown (in the Netherlands, no less) that even among stable homosexual partnerships, men have an average of eight partners per year outside their “monogamous” relationship. Because of that, other types of relationships will need to be considered as legitimate, such as threesomes or more. This already is in the courts of Europe and has been upheld as acceptable.
[/quote]

Id love to see the studies. Especially constrast to “christian” marriages given the high divorse rate.
[Would gay marriage be bad for children? While gay marriage would encourage adoption of children by homosexual couples, which may be preferable to foster care, some lesbian couples want to have children through anonymous sperm donations, which means some children will be created purposely without knowledge of one of their biological parents.
This has absolutely nothing to do with gay marriage. Not to mention that it isnt different than a straight infertile couple doing something similar.
[Research has also shown that children raised by homosexuals were more dissatisfied with their own gender, suffer a greater rate of molestation within the family, and have homosexual experiences more often.
Sources
[Gay marriage will also encourage teens who are unsure of their sexuality to embrace a lifestyle that suffers high rates of suicide, depression, HIV, drug abuse, STDs, and other pathogens.
Sources
[Acceptance of gay marriage will strengthen the notion that marriage is primarily about adult yearnings for intimacy and is not essentially connected to raising children. Children will be hurt by those who will too easily bail out of a marriage because it is not “fulfilling” to them.
Non-sequiter
[Common sense tells us that it would be destructive of the moral fabric of society. We are already having trouble maintaining stability in both marriage and family life. This will only exasperate the problem further.
Appeal to Emotion and Non-sequiter

PS. Your first article says the risk for teen suicide among gender non-conformist youths has to do with lack of acceptance.

Your second article equates homosexuals and blacks as the highest groups.
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Correlation does not mean causation. You see a similar trend with Black rights. That said, it is more domestic violence reported and decline in welfare state expenses relative to pop.

Thousands of years? Umm no. Your definition of marriage has only existed in Western Christian society for only a few decades. Prior to that, you had women as little beter than house slaves. Of course, this is ignoring marriage in other cultures where polygamy may be the norm etc etc.

Wrong again. The nuclear family promoted by conservatives, is only recent. Like above, it varies across cultures.

Id love to see the studies. Especially constrast to “christian” marriages given the high divorse rate.

This has absolutely nothing to do with gay marriage. Not to mention that it isnt different than a straight infertile couple doing something similar.

Sources

Sources

Non-sequiter

Appeal to Emotion and Non-sequiter

PS. Your first article says the risk for teen suicide among gender non-conformist youths has to do with lack of acceptance.

Your second article equates homosexuals and blacks as the highest groups.
**WOW! Imagine that…I’m wrong on ALL counts. Since you know the answer to everything under discussion here, there is no point in my continuing a dialogue of any sort with you. It would only be invalidated by your esteemed knowledge.😛 **
 
**WOW! Imagine that…I’m wrong on ALL counts. Since you know the answer to everything under discussion here, there is no point in my continuing a dialogue of any sort with you. It would only be invalidated by your esteemed knowledge.😛 **
I know eh. Asking for sources to back one’s claims is a discussion killer:rolleyes: 😛
 
The State legalises what benefits the state.

Families are good for the State that’s why the State tolerates them and supports them (and you thought the MPs are all Augustine’s fans?).

Now, one can argue that it is a right of a human being to marry one’s amor and so on. No. Everybody has a right to love, as well as a right to bear arms and arm bears (in case you’re in Vice City, Florida). But legal status is normally given to activities that benefit the State. They think human rights are for folk’s good only. No, mostly for the State’s good, because they are believed to make a country more competitive. So ask them a tough question: what good is their relationship that it is to be likened to a family.

Or, what do families and gay couplings have in common?
 
His main argument is the from the theory of evolution. Most people who don’t want a religious answer will have their ears open if you even mention the word “evolution”:D! The theory of evolution concerns itself with the “survival of the species”. **How can gay unions ensure the survival of the species??? ** That contradicts the theory of evolution and therefore gay-marriages and unions (sex) are contrary to natural law. Therefore, they cannot be permitted.
Doesn’t really understand the theory very well then, does he?

Evolution is how we came to be. It doesn’t in anyway suggest a course of action once we are here.

But let’s say he does think that we should act in a way that increases our survivability. Well to start off, we should definitely practise polygamy. The more women who are pregnant at any one time the better. Also, variety is good, so having your genes spread around is a good thing. Even better is adultery. If I can get you to raise my child, I am seriously ahead of the game.

We will also want to kill off the severely disabled, right? Think of all the resources that are squandered on those who aren’t able to contribute instead of going to the best and the brightest. Not practising eugenics is, of course, just stupid. We should let only the best breed. But how do we decide who are the best? The ones who are physically the strongest, or the brightest? Again, we should go for the biggest spread possible. Perhaps the best plan is actually to get semen samples from babies, sterilize all of the men, and then use artificial insemination to impregnate women when we have seen how the men lived their lives.

Do you really want to argue from the evolution demands it school of thought? Like I said before, evolution is about how we got here. A look at how populations change over time. It is not a prescription for living, using it as such is just silly.

Also, about 5% of people are gay. I think we can safely allow them to get married without humans going by the wayside.
 
I know eh. Asking for sources to back one’s claims is a discussion killer:rolleyes: 😛
Obviously you didn’t read through the entire post. You would have found the sources. Oh well, but that’s you. :bowdown2:
 
Obviously you didn’t read through the entire post. You would have found the sources. Oh well, but that’s you. :bowdown2:
I did. Your sources say very different things from what you were trying to prove as I pointed out. Your first post in particular argues that negative attitudes towards homosexuality (like those found in catholicism) is the reason for high teen suicide among gender confused teens.:rolleyes:
 
I did. Your sources say very different things from what you were trying to prove as I pointed out. Your first post in particular argues that negative attitudes towards homosexuality (like those found in catholicism) is the reason for high teen suicide among gender confused teens.:rolleyes:
That answer was unjustifiable and uncalled for. To blame the Church’s position for causing high teen suicide among gender confused teens is defenseless and bigoted . It is also a stupid and unintelligent hate-filled ranting. You, unfortunately will have to go on ignore. You reject scientific statistics because of your own agenda. You cannot be taken seriously here.****
 
That answer was unjustifiable and uncalled for.

Indeed. Being truthful seems very unchristian in your book doesnt it?:rolleyes:
peary1;4135396:
To blame the Church’s position for causing high teen suicide among gender confused teens is defenseless and bigoted .
Take it up with the author of your sources.
It is also a stupid and unintelligent hate-filled ranting.
Now your just projecting.
You, unfortunately will have to go on ignore. You reject scientific statistics because of your own agenda. You cannot be taken seriously here.****
LOL.

Its not my fault you dont bother to read your own sources. Truely, a strategy of genius on your part assuming noone would bother to read them.
 
Hey, guys? I think it’s safe to say that now you’re just bashing on each other, here.

…That doesn’t help, no matter WHO’S right.
 
I as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints need no one here or elsewhere attempting to “share the truth of Catholicism” with me.

I have numerous issues that will never be resolved that show without question that the Roman Catholic church is not the true Church of Jesus Christ.
 
I as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints need no one here or elsewhere attempting to “share the truth of Catholicism” with me.

I have numerous issues that will never be resolved that show without question that the Roman Catholic church is not the true Church of Jesus Christ.
Did you just pick this thread at random, or are you just taking the shotgun approach?:whacky:
 
No shotgun – I will continue to defend my church so attempting to explain what you believe to me is a waste of time.

If those of you who are Catholic wish to believe as you do, fine, I expect the same courtesy.
 
I as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints need no one here or elsewhere attempting to “share the truth of Catholicism” with me.

I have numerous issues that will never be resolved that show without question that the Roman Catholic church is not the true Church of Jesus Christ.
What does this statment have to do with the conversation currently going on?
 
No shotgun – I will continue to defend my church so attempting to explain what you believe to me is a waste of time.

If those of you who are Catholic wish to believe as you do, fine, I expect the same courtesy.
Am I missing something or did you seek us out, albeit on a non-related thread? 👋
 
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