Non-religiousness in different countries

[PazzoGrande]

Secularism is on the rise on other countries, like those in Europe. But what is the flavour of their non-religiousness? I have a friend in Britain who tells me that Dawkins is all the rage there, so I take that to mean that Britons are militantly secularist. I’ve had Japanese friends who tell me that in their country, people are simply indifferent to religion.

How are the French? I’m guessing they are militantly atheistic in that country, given their past with revolutions. The Czech Republic is apparently very atheistic, as is Sweden. Are they indifferent or do they hate religion?

If you’re from a country that is irreligious, how is the attitude of the irreligion where you are? Are they militantly anti-religious? Are they just indifferent toward religion? Are they more agnostic or atheist?

Info like this isn’t easy to read about, but one picks this up from talking with people from those different places. So if you have some background in this topic, please take some time to share your view on how people feel about religion in your own country.

 

[paperwight66]

i certainly wouldn’t say that people in Britain are militantly secularist. We prize tolerance, so the prevailing attitude is indifference, except when there’s a tragedy of some kind. Murders, accidents, soldiers getting killed in Afghanistan, all result in flowers and written prayers being left outside houses and memorials.

 

[PazzoGrande]

::bump::

No other replies? Too bad, I was hoping to learn.

I thought I’d get more responses if I posted to Apologetics which seems to get more traffic, but this doesn’t exactly fit the scope of that topic.

 

[Lokabrenna]

There’s an article on the Pagan blog “The Wild Hunt” which talks about “nonreligious” nations like Estonia and the growth of minority religions: patheos.com/blogs/wildhunt/2011/08/paganism-and-the-decline-of-religion.html

Here’s a quote from the article:

‘So when we are talking about the decline of “religion” in the West, what we really seem to be talking about is a decline in traditional “churched” congregations. These “unchurched” individuals aren’t becoming atheists or religion-free agnostics, but are instead building their own spiritual practices, or turning to decentralized open movements like modern Paganism. Nor is that a trend isolated to the United States, as a recent BBC piece focusing on religion in Estonia, the world’s “least religious” country, will tell you.’

Perhaps we are becoming more secular, but I think discussions like this completely overlook minority religions that might, in fact, be growing. It’s not that people are becoming irreligious, it’s that they’re looking at different ways to be religious. (In case you’re worried about the article’s bias, it does include plenty of links to more secular sources.)

 

[Andromedus]

Secularism is on the rise on other countries, like those in Europe. But what is the flavour of their non-religiousness? I have a friend in Britain who tells me that Dawkins is all the rage there, so I take that to mean that Britons are militantly secularist. I’ve had Japanese friends who tell me that in their country, people are simply indifferent to religion.

How are the French? I’m guessing they are militantly atheistic in that country, given their past with revolutions. The Czech Republic is apparently very atheistic, as is Sweden. Are they indifferent or do they hate religion?

If you’re from a country that is irreligious, how is the attitude of the irreligion where you are? Are they militantly anti-religious? Are they just indifferent toward religion? Are they more agnostic or atheist?

I am actually from Sweden and while there might be more atheists here than in many countries I don’t think that most are, agnostic is a better word but I am not sure it perfectly describes it either. I have heard some people discuss religion or I have discussed it myself from time to time. Some things I have heard when people talk about the subject is ‘‘I don’t believe in God but I believe in something’’, ‘‘I believe in God, but not some old man with a beard on a cloud’’, ‘‘I believe in something/God but I don’t believe in the Bible etc. But I mean, when you die, I don’t think it will just turn black’’. Etc. I have also met a bunch of people who are atheists or describes themselves as agnostics, but I have also met Christians (not counting the ones I met during mass) but perhaps sometimes a bit untraditional when it comes to some issues. I have met Muslims, but 2 out of 3 seems not to be practicing, but what do I know? Regarding the Muslims, they are more often religious than ethnic Swedes so 1 out of 3 is not representative for the country but for the ones I know or have talked to. I have also met some Buddhists.

Swedes generally, as far as I can tell without being able to read their minds, don’t think so much about religion or faith but it occurs as I stated above. I would say that there is a longing for something spiritual though, but many would probably deny this. But perhaps I am wrong, I do however think that Sweden will become a more religious society, I don’t know when or what faith it will be but I think something will happen. At the moment though I suppose you could describe the Swedish people as indifferent to religion. There is some prejudices against religion, especially some religions or churches. Catholic, Muslims (but they are often also defended by someone), Pentecostals and perhaps some other groups. However, the prejudices against Catholics is also something which derives from pre-secular times. The Lutheran state-church was never fond of us and Sweden has actually been a quite fanatic country during earlier times in history. A problem for groups who are negative to abortion and homosexuality and some other things is that those are socially acceptable in Swedish society, most of the times.

 

[marshmaller]

My sister studied in Japan for two years, and says that while the majority of he country is indeed indifferent, the few people o faith she did meet were some of the most faith filled

 

[PazzoGrande]

My sister studied in Japan for two years, and says that while the majority of he country is indeed indifferent, the few people o faith she did meet were some of the most faith filled

Do the Japanese people mock religion as nonreligious Americans tend to? I’m presuming that they don’t, given how polite their society is.

Sad though, I always thought they’d make great Catholics. Japanese people are polite, disciplined and hardworking – we sure could use some of that.

 

[PazzoGrande]

I am actually from Sweden and while there might be more atheists here than in many countries I don’t think that most are, agnostic is a better word but I am not sure it perfectly describes it either. I have heard some people discuss religion or I have discussed it myself from time to time. Some things I have heard when people talk about the subject is ‘‘I don’t believe in God but I believe in something’’, ‘‘I believe in God, but not some old man with a beard on a cloud’’, ‘‘I believe in something/God but I don’t believe in the Bible etc. But I mean, when you die, I don’t think it will just turn black’’. Etc. I have also met a bunch of people who are atheists or describes themselves as agnostics, but I have also met Christians (not counting the ones I met during mass) but perhaps sometimes a bit untraditional when it comes to some issues. I have met Muslims, but 2 out of 3 seems not to be practicing, but what do I know? Regarding the Muslims, they are more often religious than ethnic Swedes so 1 out of 3 is not representative for the country but for the ones I know or have talked to. I have also met some Buddhists.

Swedes generally, as far as I can tell without being able to read their minds, don’t think so much about religion or faith but it occurs as I stated above. I would say that there is a longing for something spiritual though, but many would probably deny this. But perhaps I am wrong, I do however think that Sweden will become a more religious society, I don’t know when or what faith it will be but I think something will happen. At the moment though I suppose you could describe the Swedish people as indifferent to religion. There is some prejudices against religion, especially some religions or churches. Catholic, Muslims (but they are often also defended by someone), Pentecostals and perhaps some other groups. However, the prejudices against Catholics is also something which derives from pre-secular times. The Lutheran state-church was never fond of us and Sweden has actually been a quite fanatic country during earlier times in history. A problem for groups who are negative to abortion and homosexuality and some other things is that those are socially acceptable in Swedish society, most of the times.

Thanks so much for reviving my post! I thought it was dead, nobody seemed interested in posting, which was too bad. I was hoping for a lively and informative discussion.

Is the King of Sweden the head of the Church of Sweden, the same way the British Monarch is the head of the Church of England?

How are vocations in Sweden? Is there a shortage of priests and religious? Here in the US, often they would get priests from other countries, and I don’t think I even know any priest who is in his 30s. The youngest ones I know are in their 40s, and the rest of the clergy here definitely has grey hair. Having an immigrant population of priests could also have a bad effect on the native-born Catholics; they’d think that the priesthood is too foreign and not something locals would want to participate in. It’s human nature; people tend to have an aversion to what’s foreign, especially if it’s from the developing world.

Also how are the demographics of the churchgoing population? Are they mostly older? Where I am, Mass tends to have a lot of seniors (but then again I’m from Hawaii; our rates of elderly people are second only to Florida). But there aren’t many people in their 20s or 30s. In my experience, a lot of people of that generation and younger tend to fall into the non-practising category I went to a Catholic highschool and a lot of my friends are agnostic. How is it in Sweden, is there a lot of youth participation, or is it aging?

Seniors are very important and valuable, but it does make one worry about the Church of 20 years from now. Will we be cold and empty? Will our churches be deserted, struggling to keep its doors open? Will the priests who are there be overburdened with pastoral responsibilities because they have so few to share the work with?

I read that lately, vocations rates have gone up. I guess the Pope’s Year of Priests really worked!

 

[patrick457]

Do the Japanese people mock religion as nonreligious Americans tend to? I’m presuming that they don’t, given how polite their society is.

Sad though, I always thought they’d make great Catholics. Japanese people are polite, disciplined and hardworking – we sure could use some of that.

Not in public at least. On private though (as well as in the Internet, protected by anonymity) a few folks seem to get rather vocal, but then again, people tend to go nuts on the Internet.

To quote myself:

Just a tidbit: it is true to some extent that a a not very positive view of religion in general (not just Christianity - which many are even ignorant of) pervades modern Japanese society. In fact, the term shuukyou (宗教, ‘religion’) can sometimes be used in a rather negative way, i.e. like ‘cult’. This view, IMHO, can be blamed towards the rise of the so-called ‘New Religions’ in pre-modern and postwar Japan (which can sometimes get rather hokey in their beliefs), as well as the religious terrorism perpetrated by groups like Aum Shinrikyo. The 1995 sarin gas attacks in Tokyo produced really deep scars; some of people I know of usually cite this incident as the main reason why they mistrust religion - a few have even lost a family member or a friend in the attacks.

It’s no wonder then IMHO why there would be people who view religion as being composed of brainwashed lunatics and fanatics. Heck, there’s even a Japanese poltician who believes himself to be an incarnation of Jesus: he even threatens his opponents to commit seppuku so he can cast them to Hell! (Good thing is, nobody takes him seriously. )

 

[Andromedus]

Is the King of Sweden the head of the Church of Sweden, the same way the British Monarch is the head of the Church of England?

Yes, but I suppose you could say that the position is mostly formal. It is a bit funny though that the monarch by law must believe in the Augsburg Confession but the archbishop is free to believe whatever he wants. And some people calls us the most secular country in the world!

How are vocations in Sweden? Is there a shortage of priests and religious? Here in the US, often they would get priests from other countries, and I don’t think I even know any priest who is in his 30s. The youngest ones I know are in their 40s, and the rest of the clergy here definitely has grey hair. Having an immigrant population of priests could also have a bad effect on the native-born Catholics; they’d think that the priesthood is too foreign and not something locals would want to participate in. It’s human nature; people tend to have an aversion to what’s foreign, especially if it’s from the developing world.

We could need more priests yes and I suppose more than one is a bit old but I have seen young ones too. Most of the priests comes from other countries and our current bishop (it is one for the whole country) is the first Swedish Catholic bishop since the reformation. A great part of the lay members in Sweden are immigrants too, or their parents are immigrants, I am not one of them though.

Also how are the demographics of the churchgoing population? Are they mostly older? Where I am, Mass tends to have a lot of seniors (but then again I’m from Hawaii; our rates of elderly people are second only to Florida). But there aren’t many people in their 20s or 30s. In my experience, a lot of people of that generation and younger tend to fall into the non-practising category I went to a Catholic highschool and a lot of my friends are agnostic. How is it in Sweden, is there a lot of youth participation, or is it aging?

Well, I live in a small town and there is not that many Catholics here and especially teenagers and young adults are quite few. Most of the Swedish Catholics lives in more populated areas and cities like Stockholm so I don’t think that my parish is exactly representative so I am not sure how things looks in the country as a whole regarding this. It is unavoidable that some young Catholics are secularized.

Seniors are very important and valuable, but it does make one worry about the Church of 20 years from now. Will we be cold and empty? Will our churches be deserted, struggling to keep its doors open? Will the priests who are there be overburdened with pastoral responsibilities because they have so few to share the work with?

It is depressing, but it is not the same on all places and the media is always confused why so many young people meets the Pope on the World Youth Days.

 

[PazzoGrande]

Yes, but I suppose you could say that the position is mostly formal.

What would happen in such a case where an avowed atheist becomes the Crown Prince or Crown Princess? Would the person be disqualified from becoming monarch? And if so, who would nullify the ascension? Parliament or the Church of Sweden? If it’s Parliament, and if Sweden is so secular, isn’t it possible that Parliament wouldn’t have any objection to an atheist taking the throne?

It’s interesting how these things work out. It doesn’t seem so impossible for things like this to happen.

 

[Andromedus]

What would happen in such a case where an avowed atheist becomes the Crown Prince or Crown Princess? Would the person be disqualified from becoming monarch? And if so, who would nullify the ascension? Parliament or the Church of Sweden? If it’s Parliament, and if Sweden is so secular, isn’t it possible that Parliament wouldn’t have any objection to an atheist taking the throne?

It’s interesting how these things work out. It doesn’t seem so impossible for things like this to happen.

As the law is right now the Monarch must be a member of the Church of Sweden and can’t deny the doctrines in public. More than one Swede thinks this is weird and undemocratic though, I don’t think everyone even knows about it, but if the problem came up perhaps they would change the law. The Church of Sweden is today not a part of the State anymore (although not everything is to 100 % separated, that the Monarch must be a Lutheran is probably the most apparent thing) and therefore they can’t do anything about the it. If the problem comes up it will be the parliament (or Riksdag as we say) that will take care of it. Currently the problem is not actual however and the current King doesn’t express religious or political views in public and he probably can’t either if he wants to keep his position. The Crown Princess doesn’t do it either. Her daughter who will be the Monarch after her (unless something happens) was born just a couple of weeks ago so she can’t do anything ‘‘scandalous’’ like that either

 

[Gearoidin]

Not in public at least. On private though (as well as in the Internet, protected by anonymity) a few folks seem to get rather vocal, but then again, people tend to go nuts on the Internet.

To quote myself:

Totally agree with Patrick. I live in a rural area in western Japan so the opposite side of the country to Patrick but have had very similar experiences.
In public people present an indifferent front but in private (or anonymous/Internet)can be quite outspoken against religion. Most people I know believe that religion is “too full of rules” and that there are already enough rules in society without adding any more. Others think religion is only for the elderly or dying and that it is not relevant to younger, healthy people. Many of my friends and students place their faith in science and believe that science will eventually find the answers to everything so there is no need for God. Japanese society can be very materialistic too.
Also, religious people are often seen as odd or particular which is not a good thing here. Christianity is seen as a “western” religion and all things western can attract a certain type of person. Often these people for one reason or another, don’t fit in well to Japanese society and hope to fit in with westerns instead. On the other hand, I have also met some of the most faith-filled, kind, generous, caring and Japanese people through my local Catholic church here. There is also some very active Baptist (or non-denominational) churches here and again, some great people.
Gearoidin

 

[SilverCamellia]

From my experience, living in the UK …

we are mostly indifferent to religion. Lots of people say that they are ‘Christian’, but it is only a nominal title. Where I live (a town of 90,000) the church attendees are older (60+) and people my age (late 20s) are definitely the minority.

Richard Dawkins certainly gets attention here, and his books are popular. Whenever a religious article is published in a UK newspaper online, it gets attacked by atheists. It makes me sad to see that some people seem to hate so much.

 

[PazzoGrande]

From my experience, living in the UK …

we are mostly indifferent to religion. Lots of people say that they are ‘Christian’, but it is only a nominal title. Where I live (a town of 90,000) the church attendees are older (60+) and people my age (late 20s) are definitely the minority.

Richard Dawkins certainly gets attention here, and his books are popular. Whenever a religious article is published in a UK newspaper online, it gets attacked by atheists. It makes me sad to see that some people seem to hate so much.

Thanks for contributing to this thread too. I predict that if things don’t change, eventually the nominal Christians will disappear.

History has had times like this, and people in the past kept predicting that religion would extinct soon, yet somehow there is always a resurgance, thanks be to the Holy Spirit. September 11th brought people back into churches for a while, at least so it was here in the US. It makes me wonder what huge disaster awaits the world that will remind it of God. I feel like as the world continues to decline into secularity, whatever that huge disaster will be is going to get larger and larger.

If World War II, according to Our Lady of Fatima, was a punishment for the sins of the world back then, what will the punishment be now? It’s scary.

 

[Smugleaf]

Whenever a religious article is published in a UK newspaper online, it gets attacked by atheists. It makes me sad to see that some people seem to hate so much.

Also in the UK. I think it’s more that people are very private about religion here. I’d estimate a large percentage to be atheists or agnostics (or, like you said, only Christian because “their parents were” or as a label). However, those who are religious just tend to keep it to themselves. Religion is kept out of public affairs and social gatherings – the former so as not to infringe on other people, the latter to avoid conflict and often simply because it is not a big part of many people’s lives. So once something religious does hit the public eye, many aren’t happy about it. Many people in any country bear scars and wounds connected to religion and in the UK I think they just aren’t as scared to express their dislike for it; only those passionate about a topic are likely to talk about it, and that group will be those for and those against – fewer religious people in total will mean more negative comments. I have noticed that Americans especially tend to be very vocal about their religion while in most other places I have been it will rarely be discussed except as a debate.

As a side note, I lived in France for a little and it is basically a religion-free state. There are a few ailing churches, and while they do hold masses every day, the congregation is tiny (maybe 2-5 people) on weekdays and the priests are very old and infirm.

I come from Poland, so you can imagine it is fairly odd to me to see old priests, nuns wearing only half of their habits, etc. I do like the tradition in Poland, much as it frustrates me to have such a religion-dominated society, being an atheist myself.

 

[PazzoGrande]

As a side note, I lived in France for a little and it is basically a religion-free state. There are a few ailing churches, and while they do hold masses every day, the congregation is tiny (maybe 2-5 people) on weekdays and the priests are very old and infirm.

Thanks for sharing that. I knew France was secularised but I didn’t know it was that bad.

2 to 5 people for a Mass sounds horrible. How is it for Sunday Masses? Is it a more respectable size?

 

[Smugleaf]

Thanks for sharing that. I knew France was secularised but I didn’t know it was that bad.

2 to 5 people for a Mass sounds horrible. How is it for Sunday Masses? Is it a more respectable size?

Still not too big in my experience, except places with a lot of tourists like Rue du Bac in Paris. Belgium seemed a lot better as far as congregations went, though still not hugely alive.

I’ve lived in Spain also, but generally only went to one parish so I can’t talk about that to be honest.

 

[PazzoGrande]

Still not too big in my experience, except places with a lot of tourists like Rue du Bac in Paris.

Thanks for the response. Would the churches be at least half-full in non-tourist French parishes?

 

[Semper_Zelare]

As far as what we can do. Is to pray for the faith in these secularized countries. How can we hope for new converts if we don’t pray for them? And how can evangelization be effective or increase if we don’t pray for this to occur?

The best way we can help the Church in secularized countries is to pray!!!

[unless of course you live there… then you should ask your priest about ministries to get involved in… IMHO]