Non-religous arguments against gay marriage

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I have recently gotten into a few debates with friends over whether or not gay marriage should be legal or illegal. I of course oppose same sex marriage, but most of my friends are for it, and theyre challenging me to come up with a reason against it leaving out my Catholic values. To say the least ive been stumped, and need some help coming up with a few points on why gay marriage should be illegal.
 
I never did understand why non-religous people (homosexual or not) would want to get married.
 
I think the family unit is the basic building block of a civilised society.

And I’ll define a family unit as a man marrying a women forever, and having children. (Of course, there’ll be exceptions.)

My brash conclusion: If you mess with the building blocks, you’re messing with civilised society.
 
I never did understand why non-religous people (homosexual or not) would want to get married.
They think they “love” each other. Homosexuals want to be accepted by society as normal. Marriage is the traditional means of expressing love- never mind the fact that what they think is love is little more than infatuation with no real depth. As soon as the honeymoon’s over, adios!

I actually wrote an article once on the OP’s topic… I don’t think I could possibly dig it up (it wasn’t very good anyway), but I remember that I argued it is not in the government’s interest to support homosexual unions.

The government sposors marriage not because two people love each other, it is for the basic animal purpose- the production of offspring, and the married couple is expected to raise any children to be good citizens. A homosexual couple cannot produce the next generation. There is no reason for the government to offer the same advantages to a couple that cannot fill a basic purpose of state-sponsored marriage. But using this argument, infertile couples should not be married, but homosexual couples raising children could be. This is one glaring weakness, which is why I didn’t like the article much anyway.

Most basically, morals and religion cannot logically be separated. In some cases, the state or the society is the religion (communism, etc), but without some form of religion, morals dissolve totally.
 
.Ask them why they (the gay couple) need to be married. What’s the need for it. Also it’s just natural for man and woman to be together in wedlock. Being Gay is like being mentally challenged. There is something wrong with that person brain. What if a pair of mentally challenged brothers want to marry? They can’t, and that won’t change. Now why should we let Gay people who want to marry be any different if they are retarded in a certain part of the brain. It’s just not natural. I can’t think of much more that’s non- religious.
 
The government sposors marriage not because two people love each other, it is for the basic animal purpose- the production of offspring, and the married couple is expected to raise any children to be good citizens. A homosexual couple cannot produce the next generation. There is no reason for the government to offer the same advantages to a couple that cannot fill a basic purpose of state-sponsored marriage. But using this argument, infertile couples should not be married, but homosexual couples raising children could be. This is one glaring weakness, which is why I didn’t like the article much anyway.
This argument is also weakened by the fact that in some states marriage between certain individuals (first cousins) is allowed by law only if the couple is unable to have biological children.
 
I never did understand why non-religous people (homosexual or not) would want to get married.
In the US, for a wide variety of legal protections and benefits

nolo.com/article.cfm/ObjectID/E0366844-7992-4018-B581C6AE9BF8B045/catID/F896EE61-B80C-4FE1-B1687AC0F07903BA/118/304/ART/ will give you an idea of a few.

If you have more time, you can see a report on this done by the US government
frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/useftp.cgi?IPaddress=162.140.64.21&filename=og97016.txt&directory=/diskb/wais/data/gao
 
Most people don’t like to admit it but the argument for “gay marriage” (that people who love each other and are committed to each other should be allowed to get married) also allows for other forms of marriage. Namely, polygamy. Yes, there are groups out there arguing for just that based on the same logic as gay marriage.

The laws of the state are enacted as moral laws and boundaries so that the citizens of the state can live in peace and harmony. We don’t allow murder. We don’t allow stealing. Etc. When the boundaries become fluid, the boundaries become meaningless. What if, stealing becomes okay if the amount is less than $20? Then what about the person who steals $21? This analogy is only pertinent to describe a slippery slope.

Some will argue that polygamy, underage marriage, etc. won’t happen if the USA allows gay marriage because other laws will be enacted to prevent polygamy, etc. However, laws are changed. My response is to look to history: that is exactly what happens.

MC
 
They think they “love” each other. Homosexuals want to be accepted by society as normal. Marriage is the traditional means of expressing love- never mind the fact that what they think is love is little more than infatuation with no real depth. As soon as the honeymoon’s over, adios!

And the heterosexual community is doing soooo much better with marriage?..the divorce rate is nuts among us.😦 I don’t think it’s a valid marriage (gay people marrying) anymore than I would view two heterosexuals marrying outside of the Church, being valid. The legality of whether they should marry shouldn’t affect us as Catholics, only what God thinks about it should. I also think that if the battle is to be fought, let alone won, on this front…we need to come up with better arguments than the divorce rate will be high. Can’t see it being any higher than heterosexual rate…and that is HIGH, sadly.
 
Most ‘married’ couples talk about having children. In the case of two people who are not of opposite gender, the natural process of that, will be impossible, and thus adoption or artifical insemination will be the only alternative. (adoption is an awesome thing, but because conception is impossible between a same sex couple, it begs the question…is that natural?) If we were all same sex couples…multiplying the species would die off, to be silly about it.:o But, that’s still an argument.

So, I would say that a ‘non religious’ argument would be that for the sake of children, being in a home where there are two people of the same sex…I think it will cause confusion for a child. I have seen documentaries on the topic, where children seem to be ok growing up like that, especially if they grew up from infant stage in that setting. But, is that healthy? I wish there were some stats on such a topic. That would be a non religious argument though–but, same sex couples are adopting every day…regardless of their legal marital status. So…will not allowing legal marriages make a difference in this case, any way? Maybe for tax purposes, or something sterile like that, it might.

The reason why we go in circles with these topics, is that there are so many underlying morality issues when it comes to this…there are other issues that get tied in, so it’s hard to focus on just the one issue. Example being, if someone doesn’t see the gay lifestyle as immoral, let’s say…then it’s natural that he/she wouldn’t see artificial insemination as immoral…or teaching kids about such a lifestyle. So…again, we as Catholics have a hard time with these issues, and coming up with good arguments, because we look to God for our moral law…where moral relativism plays a huge part in same sex marriages. (live and let live kind of thing)
 
So, I would say that a ‘non religious’ argument would be that for the sake of children, being in a home where there are two people of the same sex…I think it will cause confusion for a child. I have seen documentaries on the topic, where children seem to be ok growing up like that, especially if they grew up from infant stage in that setting. But, is that healthy? I wish there were some stats on such a topic. That would be a non religious argument though–but, same sex couples are adopting every day…regardless of their legal marital status. So…will not allowing legal marriages make a difference in this case, any way? Maybe for tax purposes, or something sterile like that, it might.
In addition, the distinct gender roles of men and women mean that a man can’t replace a mother and a mother can’t replace a father. So having two mothers won’t help a child that needs a father role model. Men and women have significant differences in their characteristics. They are psychologically as well as physically rather different, though equally valuable. The lack of a good relationship with one’s father if one is a boy or one’s mother if one is a girl, during one’s upbringing, seems to be a frequent cause for homosexuality in the first place. I can get some evidence on that for you, if you like. I have some here at my home, though I can’t get it at this moment.

Homosexual couples are also generally more promiscuous than heterosexual couples. I can also support that one- there was an article from the Boston Globe I think that described homosexual marriages in Sweden, and showed that they were more promiscuous than heterosexual ones.
 
This whole debate, in my mind, also reflects 2 underlying attitude trends in our western culture:
  1. Anything goes as long as it does not directly hurt anyone. Something may not directly hurt someone but impact the society at large and over the long run that we enact laws to put boundaries on said action. For example, not sending a child to school is truly a parent’s choice but we have enacted laws forcing a child to go to school because we believe it is in the best interest of the society as a whole. (I also believe it is in the best interest of the individual child to be educated, just trying to use an example of a law that benefits everyone as a secondary consequence.)
  2. It is hard to work toward the ideal so just settle for less. The ideal is a culture where a man and a woman marry for life, raise healthy responsible children that become adults who practice the same morals. In many areas, we have lowered the standards. Gay marriage is another one.
 
Tim Kirchoff;2945846:
They think they “love” each other. Homosexuals want to be accepted by society as normal
. Marriage is the traditional means of expressing love- never mind the fact that what they think is love is little more than infatuation with no real depth. As soon as the honeymoon’s over, adios!

And the heterosexual community is doing soooo much better with marriage?..the divorce rate is nuts among us.😦 I don’t think it’s a valid marriage (gay people marrying) anymore than I would view two heterosexuals marrying outside of the Church, being valid. The legality of whether they should marry shouldn’t affect us as Catholics, only what God thinks about it should. I also think that if the battle is to be fought, let alone won, on this front…we need to come up with better arguments than the divorce rate will be high. Can’t see it being any higher than heterosexual rate…and that is HIGH, sadly.

Everything except the bolded sentence, I actually meant to apply to all of society, not just homosexuals. Sorry for the mix-up.
 
The lack of a good relationship with one’s father if one is a boy or one’s mother if one is a girl, during one’s upbringing, seems to be a frequent cause for homosexuality in the first place. I can get some evidence on that for you, if you like. I have some here at my home, though I can’t get it at this moment.
Are you speaking here only of the biological parent?
Homosexual couples are also generally more promiscuous than heterosexual couples. I can also support that one- there was an article from the Boston Globe I think that described homosexual marriages in Sweden, and showed that they were more promiscuous than heterosexual ones.
Promiscuity is not a bar to legal marriage between heterosexuals. It can be grounds for divorce if one of the members of the couple objects to it, but it does not automatically negate the legality of the marriage, nor is a couple barred from marrying if they both intend to have an “open” marriage.
 
This whole debate, in my mind, also reflects 2 underlying attitude trends in our western culture:
  1. Anything goes as long as it does not directly hurt anyone. Something may not directly hurt someone but impact the society at large and over the long run that we enact laws to put boundaries on said action. For example, not sending a child to school is truly a parent’s choice but we have enacted laws forcing a child to go to school because we believe it is in the best interest of the society as a whole. (I also believe it is in the best interest of the individual child to be educated, just trying to use an example of a law that benefits everyone as a secondary consequence.)
Actually, in my state we have compulsory education laws, not compulsory public school attendance laws. I do not have to send my child to any school as long as I am providing for her education, which I do through homeschooling. Others may arrange for private tutors, correspondence schools, private schools, etc.

Frankly I see civil marriage for monogamous same sex couples wishing to enter into a legally binding lifelong commitment as something that will be of benefit to society as a secondary consequence by encouraging stable relationships and imposing legal restrictions on ending those relationships while protecting both partners’ interests.
 
In the US, for a wide variety of legal protections and benefits

nolo.com/article.cfm/ObjectID/E0366844-7992-4018-B581C6AE9BF8B045/catID/F896EE61-B80C-4FE1-B1687AC0F07903BA/118/304/ART/ will give you an idea of a few.

If you have more time, you can see a report on this done by the US government
frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/useftp.cgi?IPaddress=162.140.64.21&filename=og97016.txt&directory=/diskb/wais/data/gao
Code:
 The above links are a start for why I believe it should be illegal.
  1. All of those benefits were put in place for the support of what societies have come to understand as the most stabalizing phenonenon or institution there is to develope a strong society.
    The Family unit.
Since the dawn of time the family strength and value can make or break a society. Nations and security were made on marriages and alliances of families. It is beyond a doubt these strongest entity and a force to be reconned with.

In history even in the Bible. Often or most often desisions to destroy or infiltrate the family unit of a conquered nation was paramount to how successful the domination or occupation would be.

Even Ceasar at one point (during the height of homoseual acceptance) had to order his generals and high ranking officers and reccommended wealthy male citizens to marry and have children to secure the future of the Roman Empire with Roman blood.

continued,
 
As a biologist, I tend to be rather blunt on the subject.

Show me a man whose sperm are adapted to swim in feces, and I will consider that homosexual “marriage” could conceivably have a place in the natural order. (I say nothing about further difficulties that would become evident on further consideration.)Otherwise, I dismiss the concept out of hand.

This is a useful technique on many subjects, by the way. I shut down determined death penalty advocates who do not want to hear Catholic Christian considerations by asking them how they would fix mistakes.

Sometimes, you just have to note that the emperor is as naked as a jaybird, ignore the blather that is predicated on his being splendidly dressed, and move on.

Blessings,

Gerry
 
The above links are a start for why I believe it should be illegal.

continued,

Modern societies for less conquering reasons also new that it would be with families that the New World would be settled.

The mail order bride operation that took place for French and the American colonies and in settling the west.
Code:
Money, land, position  was often a reward in many societies down through history to people as an insentive. To sustain the family and ensure the survival of the children who would grow up committed in continued devotion to building the society that had took care of them.
Many of the financial benefits in the U.S. are for those reasons. Many of those benefits are directly linked to the fact that still on a whole :
woman earn less over the long years.
woman are more apt to inturupt a carreer for marriage and
woman have the children. Thus decreasing the income into a family.

Men are less emotional and are a forward movement type individual. He is less apt to want children if he can only see a retarding in his life. He is more inspired with marriage when he is in a progressing mode or see’s a future.
Men are more prone to leaving a wife and children when life takes a down hill turn financially. They are just wound different. NOt beating up on them.

Several of the benefits were established to sustain a mother and children in the event of loss of Father. Take a look at an old life insurance add in a 1940’s mag. They very much appealed to the male of being the provider and protector. It took so well you hardly see them but when you do most are geared toward him taking care of wife and Children.

Now why I think any attempt at approving gay marriage needs to be put on hold.

Any Gay couple that fits the discription of a couple or ability to replace any of the above discriptions of a family does not exsist. So why should they get the benefits if they do not qualify for the reasons the benefits were established.

Even though all straight couples don’t have children they still set the role model image in the mind of young children of the ideal situation by which children should be introduced into the society. Plenty of statistics to support that the two parent stable home is the optimum home for children. Even with divorce many children from those families still go on to marry and to create a family.
Any "gay " parents had to coop their family off the back of a heterosexual union. Gay couples can never sustain a society without manuvering into the heterosexual society. So why do they warranr finacial support. Its buisness.

Any comparison of this to interrace marriage is bogus. Laws against that was limited to a short period in history to a very narrow geographical location for a political reason. Inter race marriage has gone on through out time and there is complete evidence that it is no different than same race marriage or less an ability to stabilize or sustain a society. Entire new societies sprang up from interrace unions.
Code:
I believe the entire economical impact needs to be complety looked at before you let alot of people gain access to something they don't need.
These benefits were designed to keep the central foundation of this society eminating from the family unit. The real strength of this society. I believe if you tip the scales and inadvertantly undermind this we as a society will pay a price.

Example. Welfare of the sixties were suppose to help close the economical gap between blacks and whites due to years of racial discrimination. However, there were policies incorporated(and some will say on purpose) that ultmately led to the break up of the urban black family. What was suppose to be short term created an decline in black progress, greater poverty and almost a distruction of a huge portion of our societies families. Some may have benefitted but it was the select few. Most of us are now paying for it. If any one listens to CSPan there was a writer on this week -end who really addressed how these things, in a very economical approach, do and will attack the family as we need it to continue minus any religious reasons. He spelled out the destructive affects on the society.
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continued,
 
Vintagecoils;2947385:
The above links are a start for why I believe it should be illegal.

continued,
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The support of family with woman and children permeates so many area's of our society it is even unknown to many who benefit.
We approved divorced for example and then realized there was very little in place to protect woman and children. Been a fight ever since to bring back a equity of sort. Policies like the one that now reads that a child does not have to be reared by a woman is just a tip on the iceberg.
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It is so involved it can not be quickly disrupted.   So I say since no historical record shows any society ever taking the move to allow homosexual marriage until the few in Europe recently( and they are in a seriours social and family decline)  We need to tread carefully .
Through analysis is required I believe.
 
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