Non-virgin wives

[Catholic4aReasn]

Cdn.freethinker:

Nancy

You agree with everything that is in the bible?

Bob

I believe everything the bible intended to teach as true, yes

What proof do you have that Poseidon, Neptune, Zeus, Osiris, and thousands of other gods are not the correct god?

It’s common knowledge that these are part of mythology. Do you know of anyone today who sincerely believes these to be real, existing gods? I must admit that I don’t.

Forgive me if I’m assuming incorrectly, but I don’t think you believe they are real either. Why would you ask me to try to prove that something isn’t real that neither one of us even believes is real?

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

Cdn.freethinker:

I appreciate that you were able to bend the rules a little, though I am not to keen onn the “my we are busy aren’t we” comment.

( Quotes Remarks edited for response to lack of respect for the beliefs of others)

So you were offended at a little comment that really wasn’t at all insulting and then you post an insult to all people of faith. Interesting…

In Christ,
Rand

 

[Michael_Francis]

Just a reminder that all posts must reflect respect for Catholic teaching as well as for each other, regardless of view. Forum Rules
By and large you have all done pretty well so far, but I am answering a complaint on this thread so will be checking on it regularly.

“Y’all play nice now y’hear?” :yup:

 

[BeautifyU]

If I may, in response to your quote “BELIEVING IS EASIER THAN THINKING” I beg to differ. I spent many years as an atheist and felt the same way, but I now realize that in order to have the strong faith I long for I must pray for it every day. And one of the most difficult things I ever did was taking that step to just believe. In many ways, life was easier before I opened my heart to God, but moreso I’m spiritually enriched now and thankful every day for his presence in my life. Before I could just depend on myself to manage things, make moral decisions, and handle life in general and this was a much simpler way of life. In trusting God we are often forced to face difficult truths, accept them, and live by them in order to please and glorify Him, and this is definitely not easier than thinking. I have a great respect and understanding of your position, but please try to open your mind to the idea of just giving it all to Him. He wants you to, he wants to free you - more than you could possibly know.

 

[BeautifyU]

Another quote I’d like to respond to:
“Faith is not enough for me. I prefer evidence.”

It became very evident to me at one point that I was going to have a lot of trouble dealing with everything on my own, and this was when I took the plunge. I felt a bit silly, but something inside was pushing me to do this, so I did. I simply stood outside at night under a dark empty sky and took notice that there were no stars out at all that night. I then looked up and said, “If you do exist, I need a sign. I need evidence. If you are there, you know what it will take for me to believe, so here I am. I’m open. Hit me.” Staring at the blank sky I remember thinking, “Well, I won’t see anything astronomical like a shooting star (the ultimate “sign from God” to many of us) because there are none tonight.” I looked down, rubbed my eyes, looked around me, and then looked back up. And there was the largest star I had ever seen in my life, glowing brightly right above me.

This was only the beginning of a long series of events that I found to be strong evidence of His existence. The more I opened myself to Him, the more He showed me Himself. It’s awesome. You really should try it.

 

[RobNY]

Cdn.freethinker:

You can’t have it both ways. Either the book is the complete and inspired word of god as believers say or it is not.

The bible can concurrently be completely inspired and conditional. Dietary laws were disciplines aimed at the Jews to lead to holiness. They weren’t of a “moral” value necessarily, but they were still required. The best way to understand this is to understand the disciplines of the Catholic Church in current times. For instance, regarding fasting. It is not immoral not to fast, quite obviously, yet the Church requires that you fast on Fridays (or make an acceptable substitute). The Church could lift the obligation of Catholics to fast. Or perhaps, the discipline of the Latin rite Church which does not allow married men to become priests. While that is certianly a time-honored discipline of the Latin (Western) Church, it isn’t necessary, and indeed there are exceptions to this rule (rare) in the West, and in the East it is not prohibited at all.

So, with the dietary and priestly laws of the Old Testament. These are conditionally binding on the Jewish people. Yet, in the New Testament, we were released of the obligation to follow the Jewish dietary laws (there is a specific scripture passage on that one, but I can’t recall it). The moral laws of the Old Testament are still in force because they are objectively right and wrong. The issue of homosexuality and sodomy is a moral one. Furthermore, the teaching is amply reinforced in the New Testament. There is no contradiction.

I encourage you to look at Catholicism with an open mind. If you’re going to be aiming disparaging remarks at believers, you might as well not post here. “Believing is easier than thinking,” and other such nonsense like that. That faith and belief is an easy thing is something that has never occured to me in my short life. Perhaps someone who does not believe should not claim that he knows it is easier? Your quotes, while pithy, are inconclusive. I can see no reason for them except to try to attack us in some way. You remind me of the foolish Christians who post the quote, “The fool says in his heart, “there is no God.”” (Psalm 14:1) as if that is some sort of definitive proof against athiesm. Please try and add to conversation, don’t condescend to us. I could find plenty of remarks from, say, G.K. Chesteron on athiesm to add to my posts, but you don’t see me doing that.

What proof do you have that Poseidon, Neptune, Zeus, Osiris, and thousands of other gods are not the correct god?

The answer is simple: Jesus is an historical figure, Poseidon, Neptune, Zeus, Osiris, etc… are not. There are even secular historical sources (imagine that!) that refer to Jesus. Zeus, et al. are obscured in the mists of time, quite the contrary about Jesus. Tacitus, Josephus, Thallus, Pliny, Lucian, Suetonius, The Talmud, etc… these mention Jesus. Tacitus and Josephus’ mentions should be enough, but perhaps you want even more. This is to ignore the Christian sources that attest to Jesus’ existence. Jesus walked this earth, and that’s a load more than most of these other ones can attest to.

PS- next time you have a question, come here honestly and ask us to explain it. Don’t come here asking us if we “believe this nonsense.” After all, aren’t you the freethinker? Have an open mind.

 

[Cdn.freethinker]

Hmmmm well I seem to have caused some controversy here haven’t I? There have been so many replies that I cannot in the time I have today answer them all.

If I have offended anyone, you have my apologies. I am not meaning to do that.

I do feel very strongly in my belief that religion is a holdover from our past and shoud be discarded as soon as possible. That this will likely never happen I have no doubt. But as long as the religious feel they have the right to spread the gospel, then I feel I have the right to argue against them. I make no attack on anyone personally and if this came across then I am at fault for not choosing my words better.

I do not hate your church but I do hate to see people who are inherently good being told that they are sinners because of some mythical event(s) in ancient times. When will people realize that good people are good despite religion, not because of it. Religion, and I mean ALL religions, only serves to control and confuse.

We no longer need to believe in some invisible policeman in the sky. We have human problems that can be solved by human beings who have the power to reason.

The most important ideas that have contributed to the improvement of the human condition have been the scientific method and enlightened reason.

Religion has brought NOTHING but countless years of suffering, barbarism, unwarranted guilt, and does so to this day.

I have been accused of not having an open mind when it comes to religion. I am guilty of this. Absolutely 100% guilty. I have given this much thought, with as open a mind as possible and have come to my conclusion based upon evidence and reason.

I think that I have behaved in a reasonable way on this forum. Certainly more reasonable that many believers behave on atheist forums. I will argue my point with anyone. And I will continue to do so with what intelligence and vigour as I possess.

I beleive in the here and not the hereafter. I believe that we are all very lucky to have been given the chance to spend the short time we have on this beautiful world. Once we close our eyes, we close them forever. Make the best of your life and the lives that you influence.

I will end this with another pithy quotation.

"I would love to believe that when I die I will live again, that some thinking, feeling, remembering part of me will continue. But much as I want to believe that, and despite the ancient and worldwide cultural traditions that assert an afterlife, I know of nothing to suggest that it is more than wishful thinking.

The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there’s little good evidence. Far better it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides. "

Carl Sagan

 

[Catolico]

Cdn.freethinker:

Hmmmm well I seem to have caused some controversy here haven’t I?

really? Actually I dón´t see much controversy at all. Seems like a pretty one-sided “debate” to me :yup:

 

[mercygate]

Cdn.freethinker:

I do hate to see people who are inherently good being told that they are sinners because of some mythical event(s) in ancient times. When will people realize that good people are good despite religion, not because of it. Religion, and I mean ALL religions, only serves to control and confuse.

I am curious as to how you arrive at the conclusion that man is inherently good.

 

[Cdn.freethinker]

You obviously think that man is inherently evil then?

 

[Cdn.freethinker]

Of course it’s one sided. I am greatly outnumbered here and am battling against 2,000 years of dogma.

Catolico:

really? Actually I dón´t see much controversy at all. Seems like a pretty one-sided “debate” to me :yup:

 

[Reepicheep]

Cdn.freethinker:

You obviously think that man is inherently evil then?

Are those the only choices, Freethinker? Inherently good or inherently evil? Is there no third possibility?

And, to aid understanding, will you define the word *inherently *as you use it?

 

[MariaG]

Just an FYI. You will get more takers, and more intelligent response if you actually make new threads for your topics.

Your thread, but you never really did respond with any thought to the many responses to your original post.

Nice rant though. You should spin some new threads from it.

But again your thread.

But, I’ll leave you to others now.

May God Bless you and keep you safe,
Maria

 

[JCPhoenix]

cdn.freethinker,

I’m glad that you openly admit to your lack of open-mindedness. Granted, your position is obvious but consider that you do not deny it does display some integrity. Thank you for that.

I’m sorry you have such a poor view of religion, and I suspect that this does not just come from “objective” observation, but likely from a personal event in your past. Most of the people I know who share opinions similar to yours have experienced injury of some sort at the hands of people who call themselves “Christian”. If this is the case with you, I do apologize…realize that not everyone who calls themselves “Christian” is in fact so.

In any case, it is important to note that the Catholic Church actually compiled the Bible. If you are open to doing some research, may I direct you to a book caleld, “Where We God the Bible” by Henry G. Graham. ISBN 1-888992-04-2.

Additionally Scott Hahn has recently published a textbook about scripture. It is not yet available although orders are being taken. This may assist you in understanding the Catholic interpretation of scripture.

I see that you approach the Bible as a black-and-white issue. Understand that the Bible, while historical, is not inherently a historical book. Much in the Bible cannot be proven, whether due to the age, etc. The earliers portions of the Bible were likely handed down through oral tradition and when set to writing, were told in Hebrew.

Of course, we do accept the teachings of the Bible, so we have to consider context. Yes, the portion of Deuteronomy you cited is very harsh, but this was culture at the time and was reflective of this. The OT had a lot of law dealing with “an eye for an eye” so much of this is historical.

However, Jesus was born and he was the messiah fortold in the OT. He brought a message of mercy and so rather than “an eye for an eye”, his teaching was “turn the other cheek”. We are to show each other the love of the Lord for his people rather than to return the various parries. This is the ultimate message.

I would encourage you to read 1 Corinthians 13 so as to understand the true definition of love. I think we all fail to meet this standard.

It’s common for Catholics and other Christians of all denominations to get into debate about Biblical interpretation and that is fine. We believe different things, but what it all comes down to is this: not so much literal translation as understanding the point of what the Bible is trying to teach us. We have to ask, “What is the point of this passage?”

Now, while I wear a veil to Mass, this is no longer required, although it is considered to be a personal devotion. It is required according to Corinthians. However, in looking at the passages surrounding this the true teaching is reverence and submission to Goid…not the literal.

The lesson behind the reading you cited has more to do with chastity, respect for one another and even health than about stoning virgins. This is a moral teaching regarding consequences of actions, not so much the customary response at the time.

I am not theologin, but I would definitely refer you to consider checking into various books CA offers, or Ignatious Press, or even the early Church Fathers…that is, if you do really want to understand what we believe.

You will recieve various responses here from people with all levels of understanding or lack thereof. I would encourage you to look to authoritative sources for answers if you are truely seeking them.

I realize that you do not share our beliefs, but I will be praying for you just the same. You may not believe, but please understand that your lack of belief does not affect the Truth…and we will all face our day of Judgment. We all owe a death, and in the end, all debates are meaningless because only the Truth will stand.

So if we Catholics are wrong, and there is no God, only non-existance after death, so be it. We cannot change this. But if we reject the Truth of God and go to our deaths unbelieving, we will be held responsible. I woudl say that truly seeking belief is a safer route than seeking a world devoid of religion.

 

[RobNY]

Cdn.freethinker:

I will end this with another pithy quotation.

Although I think appealing to favorite quotes is just as much of an appeal to emotionalism as religion supposedly is.

But as long as the religious feel they have the right to spread the gospel, then I feel I have the right to argue against them.

May I ask one question: why? I mean, Christians spread their gospel because it tells us to spread it. As long as it doesn’t effect you-- and chances are it really won’t, not if you live in 21st century North America, especially Canada. Why do you do it?

And yes, argue against us. I think that’s perfectly your right to do so. But first, argue against what we believe, not what you think we believe. I know that sounds like nitpicking, but many people think they know what Catholics believe, but they don’t.

Religion has brought NOTHING but countless years of suffering, barbarism, unwarranted guilt, and does so to this day.

Let’s be honest here, “NOTHING” is quite an absolute. I’m surprised you’d say it. Perhaps it was hyperbole? All I need to do is counter with one example to disprove this… Catholic charities. Bingo, religion has done some good. (My second piece of advice is to not overgeneralize like that, people will take you more seriously if you don’t.)

Of course it’s one sided. I am greatly outnumbered here and am battling against 2,000 years of dogma.

Ah, but you make dogma sound like a bad thing.

-Rob

EDIT: I leave you with a quote:

“The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.” – G.K. Chesteron

 

[Cdn.freethinker]

MariaG

Thanks for the suggestion. I have indeed dropped by other threads but this one has taken on a life of it’s own.

In any event, I have replied to the many comments as best as I can without resorting to language that will get me kicked off.

If I have stirred the pot and caused one person in the crowd to think seriously about religion, without dogmatic influences, then I am a happy camper.

If all religion taught was how to function in society in a way that was most beneficial to the person and the group, then I would have little to argue against. But it doesn’t. Religion has done nothing to improve the human condition. It has done nothing to improve the condition of women and children.

That there are good people of all religions I agree. But these are good people. Period. No one can tell me that if these people didn’t have the religious beliefs that they do they would have developed as evil and sadistic criminals.

The Christian religion in particular is built upon the foundation that we are bad, bad people. The only thing badder than us are people of other religions or people of no religion and they are truely bad.

There is a man in the sky who made us. He apparentley made us in his own image. But then he set us up to fail. He made us somewhat imperfect and then he tempted us. And now after we displayed our imperfection, he is punishing us for what he created - imperfect human beings. How can anyone believe this?

That’s my last rant for today…

Bob

MariaG:

Just an FYI. You will get more takers, and more intelligent response if you actually make new threads for your topics.

Your thread, but you never really did respond with any thought to the many responses to your original post.

Nice rant though. You should spin some new threads from it.

But again your thread.

But, I’ll leave you to others now.

May God Bless you and keep you safe,
Maria

 

[JCPhoenix]

Cdn.freethinker:

MariaG

If all religion taught was how to function in society in a way that was most beneficial to the person and the group, then I would have little to argue against. But it doesn’t. Religion has done nothing to improve the human condition. It has done nothing to improve the condition of women and children.

The Christian religion in particular is built upon the foundation that we are bad, bad people. The only thing badder than us are people of other religions or people of no religion and they are truely bad.

There is a man in the sky who made us. He apparentley made us in his own image. But then he set us up to fail. He made us somewhat imperfect and then he tempted us. And now after we displayed our imperfection, he is punishing us for what he created - imperfect human beings. How can anyone believe this?

That’s my last rant for today…

Bob

You so clearly do not understand religion. It’s good that you’re here.

God did not set us up to fail. He first created us, set us in a paradise, and then WE chose to sin. We chose to eat of the tree of knowledge and fell for the first lie: we chose spiritual death.

Original sin refers to spiritual death and when we sin, when we commit an act which is wrong (this is a different topic, so I won’t go into depth), that is a sin. That is a form of death…not physical, but spiritual.

First, then God provided us an act of cleansing…baptism, which removes the stain of original sin. But it does not remove our concupiscense…which is the propensity towards sin. People are not inherently evil or inherently good…we are simply human beings with a propensity to commit evil. This is the human condition.

God does not set us up to fail…he sets us up to succeed, and we fail all on our own. When you send a child out for some sport, are you setting that child up for failure, or success? Do you not want the child to do well? What if that child does not put forth the effort to achieve? Does he/she not then set him or herself up for failure in that case? This is a simplistic explanation but do you see the point?

God then sent us the messiah, he sent us Jesus Christ who took on our sinfulness and died on our behalf.

Rather than this redemptive act being somethign to negate all sin, it upholds the original free will…we have the choice to accept, to believe, and to follow the teachings of Christ…or we have the choice to reject the teachings of Christ.

In the end, we win, but we have to accept authority. We have to accept God, accept Jesus, and follow the 10 Commandments. We have to act with love and charity, we have to live what we preach.

God did not set us up to fail, and he does not need to stoop to our lowest levels to reach us. Rather, religion seeks to bring us up to God, to elevate us rathar than the popular opinion that God should be at our debased level.

We are only evil because we choose to be. That is concupiscence. Religion is not about the individual, it is about the community and how the individual at optimum benefits teh community and vice versa. Religion is all about the common good.

You often hear people complainig they dont’ get much out of religion…but what are they puttting into their religion? It is not there for entertainment, but for enlightenment.

I’m sorry, but you do not understand this at all. Have you studied theology? You may want to take a basic course in theology. Check out Lee Stroebel. (sp?)

 

[proudnifi]

“If all religion taught was how to function in society in a way that was most beneficial to the person and the group, then I would have little to argue against. But it doesn’t. Religion has done nothing to improve the human condition. It has done nothing to improve the condition of women and children.”

People aren’t perfect and religions are lived by people - so religions won’t be perfect. But, the main theme of most religions seems to include some variation of the Golden Rule. The idea of treating others with respect is beneficial to the person and to the group.

Many religions have been beneficial for women and children. Judaic law had provisions for caring for widows. Islam speaks of almsgiving. Christianity was against exposing unwanted children. Even if you disagree with some policies/teachings, to say they do “nothing” is too strong a statement.

Even putting aside the being nice to others aspect of religions, some people have been motivated to create beautiful works of art as a result of religious feeling. We can all enjoy that art.

“That there are good people of all religions I agree. But these are good people. Period. No one can tell me that if these people didn’t have the religious beliefs that they do they would have developed as evil and sadistic criminals.”

The Catholic Church doesn’t say that non-religious people are going to be evil and sadistic criminals. The Jews speak of Righteous Gentiles.

"The Christian religion in particular is built upon the foundation that we are bad, bad people. The only thing badder than us are people of other religions or people of no religion and they are truely bad.

There is a man in the sky who made us. He apparentley made us in his own image. But then he set us up to fail. He made us somewhat imperfect and then he tempted us. And now after we displayed our imperfection, he is punishing us for what he created - imperfect human beings. How can anyone believe this?"

I had not heard the Catholic Church refer to a man in the sky. I had not heard that the Fall was a result of God tempting humankind.

 

[mjdonnelly]

Deut. is Old Testament, Catholics are New Testament. We don’t follow the OT laws since we have been given new ones by Jesus.

That would be a more appropriate question for someone who is Jewish.