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Orogeny
Guest
Well, I suppose that was exactly the same attitude Martin Luther had. I guess you know better than Rome, too.
Peace
Tim
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Peace
Tim
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wjp984
Guest
is there anything that a lay person can not bless with? I heard oil was something only a priest can annoint with. Is that true.
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Br.Rich_SFO
Guest
No that is not true. The only oils that a layperson cannot use are OC, SC, and OI. Other blessed oil can be used by lay persons taking due care not to confuse anyone with Sacramental anointing.
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Br.Rich_SFO
Guest
Off topic: Candidates can be dismissed with the Catechumen if they have no objection, and many want to be dismissed for BOW. In a small group having one or two Catechumens poses a problem in BOW. However it must be stressed that Candidates do not have to leave. It is their right as Baptized Christians to remain for the Liturgy of the Eucharist.
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Al_Masetti
Guest
Certainly someone will beat me up on this one also. But as a eucharistic minister I have imposed ashes on Ash Wednesday. One priest and six em’s. And about 3000 recipients.
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Servus_Pio_XII
Guest
“Turn away from sin and be faithful to the Gospel” (what they do say) does not make me feel mortal.
Now, “Remember, Man, thou art dust and to dust thou shall return” (what I would like them to say) would.
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palmas85
Guest
Actually never. When did they pass to you?
Seeing and accepting the truth of a given situation can sometimes be difficult. It is often easier to close your eyes. Many in the Church due our sense of obedience have closed our eyes, and did so historically as well…
But since you say I need humility, then I’ll propose this. You tell me truthfully that Rome has NEVER done or said anything wrong, or something that has been detrimental to the faith and offer some proof of it, then I will accept my error and my “lack of humility” and crawl to the altar and beg forgiveness. Hows that for humlility?
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palmas85
Guest
Servus Pio XII said:
I was actually surprised on Ash Wednesday at the Novus Ordo Parish that I attended to get my ashes. The Priest, and the Extraordinary Ministers distributing the ashes all said remember man thou art dust and to dust thou shall return. I spoke with one of the ministers after Mass and he said the Priest had told them beforehand that would be the appropriate acclamation. He has also apparently introduced several other new things as well which the minister said would be evident in the masses from now on.
I’m looking forward to seeing what they are.
As an aside I attended the Rite of Election earlier today as a guest of a friend of mine at the Convention Center. A very nice event, no liturgical dancers or any nonsense like that, and Bishop Brom spoke in a very orthdox and reverent manner. I was very impressed and quite proud of His Excellency and his message to the Elect and the Candidates. Maybe things are looking up in San Diego.
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rkberlin
Guest
whoa, that I haven’t heard of, it kind of makes sense, though, i guess. i could’ve sworn even the babies and toddlers received ashes in our parish, but I’m in Germany and our pastor is pretty - let’s say- ecumenically oriented…I guess considering the words Father says it makes sense that only children of the age of reason - or those in the sacrament class- should receive ashes. then again, what harm would it do to include the little ones. I hope someone here has some better answers than me. God bless!
jasm:
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rkberlin
Guest
Didn’t they used to say that all the time, though? When i was still in the States ( last year for Ash Wednesday ) Father said the latter. When did it change to the “turn away from sin…” phrase?
Servus Pio XII said:
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Orogeny
Guest
I’m not the one deciding what Rome should be teaching.
It is not our position to decide what is right and what is wrong when it comes to matters of the faith. That falls to the Church. Obedience is part of being Catholic.
Totally irrelevant. Jesus gave us the Church and gave the Church the authority to teach the faith. He did not give that to the laity. Unless you are claiming that power, it is part of our faith that you submit to the teaching of the Church. As Catholics, that means Rome has the final say.But since you say I need humility, then I’ll propose this. You tell me truthfully that Rome has NEVER done or said anything wrong, or something that has been detrimental to the faith and offer some proof of it, then I will accept my error and my “lack of humility” and crawl to the altar and beg forgiveness. Hows that for humlility?
Peace
Tim
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Al_Masetti
Guest
Servus Pio XII said:
Both prayers used at the imposing of ashes are correct. The “manual” allows either to be used. Personally I prefer the “dust to dust”, but either is perfectly acceptable. By the book.
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didymus
Guest
Come by my parish, the fonts have sand in them!
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Brendan
Guest
That was complete hogwash. The ashes are blessed. The administration of the ashes imparts a blessing.
Why would your parish want to deny the children a blessing.
And the even go so far as saying this was NOT A BLESSING. What, did the priest forget to actually bless the ashes???
And not only that, Sacrosactum Concillorum #23 places the regulation of sacramentals on the Ordinary so that there might be a region unity in the practice of sacramentals. So unless it was the Ordinary of the diocese that prohibited that, the pastor took an authority that he does not have.
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palmas85
Guest
Neither did I. I just stated a well known fact.
Rome has the final say in matters of faith and morals. Not in everthing else. I never questioned any of their official teaching. And I will say it again, if they are wrong they are wrong, and have often been so. If you say not, then you have your head buried in the sand. Rome neither expects nor wants blind, slavish obedience.
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setter
Guest
Is it permissible to self-administer ashes to one’s forehead? A local pastor left the Church open for this very purpose due to some folks simple unable to attend the limited Ash Wednesday services available. There was a table in the main aisle with the ashes and the script of what to say as one signed themself with the ashes. A creative solution for those who otherwise would not be able to receive ashes?
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Orogeny
Guest
Do you claim that Rome doesn’t have the final say as to who can distribute ashes?
Peace
Tim
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legeorge
Guest
OK, what about this one?
I wanted to take my kids to Church on Ash Wednesday, so I decided to go to the 7:00 PM service instead of the noon. Well, there was no Mass. There wasn’t even a priest there! We had a “service” where a lay “prayer leader” led the whole thing. There was a reading and the Gospel reading was done by the “leader”. Then he gave a little talk. I am almost completely sure that this person is *not * a deacon. He just went through some kind of class to be a prayer leader. He had two altar servers with him, and he sat in the priest’s chair behind the altar. Ashes were all distributed by lay people. Then the Blessed Sacrament was taken out of the tabernacle and likewise, distributed by all lay people. And it’s not like we have no priest. We have two! And you’re telling me that one couldn’t even show up for Ash Wednesday? What is up with that?
BTW, our Stations of the cross on Fridays during lent are led by the same “prayer leader”. You won’t find a priest anywhere. Also, a lay woman leads what is supposed to be Benediction. She puts out the Blessed Sacrament and leads the Divine
Praises, etc. And then replaces it when the hour of adoration is over. I find these things to be ridiculous. I don’t care if it is “allowed” or not. Why shouldn’t we have a priest for these things when there are two of them assigned to our parish? I wish I could be more gracious towards the priests, but I am beginning to think that they are lazy. Any ideas on how to respond to this?
I wanted to take my kids to Church on Ash Wednesday, so I decided to go to the 7:00 PM service instead of the noon. Well, there was no Mass. There wasn’t even a priest there! We had a “service” where a lay “prayer leader” led the whole thing. There was a reading and the Gospel reading was done by the “leader”. Then he gave a little talk. I am almost completely sure that this person is *not * a deacon. He just went through some kind of class to be a prayer leader. He had two altar servers with him, and he sat in the priest’s chair behind the altar. Ashes were all distributed by lay people. Then the Blessed Sacrament was taken out of the tabernacle and likewise, distributed by all lay people. And it’s not like we have no priest. We have two! And you’re telling me that one couldn’t even show up for Ash Wednesday? What is up with that?
BTW, our Stations of the cross on Fridays during lent are led by the same “prayer leader”. You won’t find a priest anywhere. Also, a lay woman leads what is supposed to be Benediction. She puts out the Blessed Sacrament and leads the Divine
Praises, etc. And then replaces it when the hour of adoration is over. I find these things to be ridiculous. I don’t care if it is “allowed” or not. Why shouldn’t we have a priest for these things when there are two of them assigned to our parish? I wish I could be more gracious towards the priests, but I am beginning to think that they are lazy. Any ideas on how to respond to this?
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palmas85
Guest
I never said they didn’t. As I stated initially,
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A lot of things have been said by Rome, not all of them good or even conducive to Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular.
Actually I just see it as one more inroad being made in the de basement of the faith. You see I remember when we were told that Marian devotions were a thing of the past, when we were discouraged from having novenas and rosary processions in favor of bible study classes, thoughtfully provided by the local Protestant evangelicals. All motivated by a sincere desire to help us in a deeper understanding of the Christian fait*h
I see the practice of the laity distributing ashes as being akin to extraordinary ministers of communion, as yet another example of the general deemphasis of the ordained priesthood and the elevation of the laity. You know, we’re all exactly the same and everything like that. No differences, ordained priests are just the same as us.
After Vatican II, a** certain group** within the Church wanted to eliminate or diminish the differences between Catholics and Protestants, one of which was the ordained priesthood. Others were to deemphasize the sacrifice of the mass in favor of the meal, and do away with what were considered old time devotions, devotions to the Blessed Mother for example. Thankfully, Pope John Paul II, of blessed memory, re-emphasized those devotions and held the line more or less firmly against further encroachments on the faith.
So yes, I think Rome is dead wrong in allowing the laity to distribute ashes as well as holy communion. Both of which are matters of discipline, not faith or morals by the way. I have come to believe that Extraordinary Ministers may have some very limited value however… I believe fully that the sacrament of Holy Orders actually infuses the Priest with an increase of sanctifying grace, and that by virtue of that he stands just a little closer to God than I I don’t think that the concept of a universal priesthood means that we are all exactly the same as the ordained priests, as many apparently do…
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palmas85
Guest
Very very common these days. As I have said many times these sorts of things are all part of the general de-emphasis of the role of the ordained priest in favor of the role of the laity in liturgical matters. Elevate the laity, diminish the role and function of the Priest, and the faith becomes a little less threatening and a little less different to our separated brethren. Emphasize the communal meal aspect of the mass and de-emphasize it’s sacrificial aspect, and it too becomes a little les threatening to them as well. Allow anyone to handle the Blessed Sacrament and the body of Christ, and it slowly loses its’ significance. It becomes just a symbol, and guess what, less threastening and different and more acceptable to the separated brethren. After all, if we don’t treat it with reverence and respect, why should they?
All very well thought out, all very protestant in nature and very Lutheresque in character.
The sad thing is it didn’t work when it started and it still doesn’t work now.
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