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TMC
Guest
Just FYI, the ADA does not apply to a church’s selection of clergy, nor do any of the other anti-discrimination laws.
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rosejmj
Guest
Well being autistic and non verbal is different than just being non verbal. Autism often brings different difficulties with it which can be more or less severe depending on the person. Of course it is a spectrum and it differs for everyone, but it can also be considered an intellectual disability(although some sources may argue otherwise- it is a complex issue)
Another thought: could this priest concelebrate Mass with a priest who is able to speak? Do concelebrants have to recite any particular parts of the Mass, or may they just celebrate mentally in union with the presiding priest?
Are there not priests, or have there not been priests in the past, who function primarily if not exclusively in non-parish roles, such as professors, scholars, and even scientists?
I realize that there is a crying need for as many priests as possible for parishes and other communities (campus ministry, prisons, hospitals, etc.), but the infinite value of even a solitary priest saying Mass for small groups should be considered as well.
I realize that there is a crying need for as many priests as possible for parishes and other communities (campus ministry, prisons, hospitals, etc.), but the infinite value of even a solitary priest saying Mass for small groups should be considered as well.
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esieffe
Guest
what about the EEOC? Relax. The only point I am making really is that in this day and age in the litigation happy USA the cry of discrimination could come from anywhere. I would doubt it, but then again things I thought I would never see, especially in government do happen. Ask AOC what she thinks about that question.
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acanonlawyer
Guest
Any baptized man who has the intention to be ordained can be ordained. So, yes, it is possible. That being said, just because a man can be ordained doesn’t mean he can necessarily celebrate Mass or administer other Sacraments.
It has been thought that Sacraments can only be administered via the minister vocalizing the “form.” The Sacramental effectiveness of sign language is more widely accepted now, however. Dr. Edward Peters (canon lawyer) wrote an interesting and persuasive article on this topic about 10 years ago, arguing that sign language is a true language that expresses ideas/meaning just as much as vocal speech. So, he argues that sign language can be used by itself in the administration of Sacraments. I think I agree with him.
I don’t really know what a speech assisting device is (how it works) and so I haven’t thought about the use of such a thing in the Mass or other Sacraments.
Dan
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TheLittleLady
Guest
There are a few deaf priests around. The Diocese would not ordain them if they could not validly celebrate Mass
Tis_Bearself
Patron
As others have said, there have been deaf priests, deaf-mute priests who used sign language, and priests with all levels of physical impairment. Servant of God Bill Atkinson became a quadriplegic due to an accident while in seminary. He was still ordained and is up for sainthood today. However, I believe he was a member of an order and not out there running a parish.
The bigger question here is that the man suffers from autism, a mental disorder. This to me is a bigger issue than whether he speaks in sign language.
The bigger question here is that the man suffers from autism, a mental disorder. This to me is a bigger issue than whether he speaks in sign language.
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JS_Cortez
Guest
Generally, an ASD speech assistance device either allows the person to touch images or actually just type like anyone would on the device and then the device speaks the words for the person. This might be a stretch as it would either have this man typing while at the altar or having it pre-typed, which doesn’t seem different than a recording. I would think it would be fine in a confessional booth, as if there is a screen, you don’t see the priest anyway.
Though it seems signing the Mass is a valid means if there have been sign language Masses already.
ASD has a wide spectrum of affect. We already have priests who are considered “high functioning” on the spectrum. The problem society has dealing with nonverbal Autistic people is unless they do have means of communicating (either with sign language or a device) the outside world doesn’t know whether their thinking and mental capacity is entirely normal or its affected by a second disorder. Outbursts by nonverbal autistic people are either out of frustration, being unable to communicate, or to try to handle sensory overload.
Is there an official sign-language translation of the Latin Novus Ordo Missae? If not, could there be?
As a side issue, I have always wondered how in the world missionaries in the past (e.g., the North American Martyrs) were able to go into lands, and among people, where no one knew either Latin or the mother tongue of the missionaries (English, French, Spanish, etc.), and teach the Catholic faith so that it could be understood.
I am sure some kind of improvised sign language would have had to be used. When I am abroad, have a spotty knowledge of the language, and the person I am talking to does not speak English, I find myself using a greater range of bodily expressions to communicate, a kind of rudimentary “sign language”.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
Yes, I know, but there are a lot of “high functioning” autistic people who were never even diagnosed, and others who are able to function with minimal help. I know some of them personally. None of them are mute.
Somebody who is mute because of autism is not “high functioning” and would likely need special accommodations beyond just help with speech.
In any event, this is an issue for the individual affected and the vocations director. We cannot issue some sort of blanket pronouncement that yes, everybody with this issue could be ordained, or no, everybody with this issue could not be ordained. It depends on what type of priest he’s trying to be (in an order? in a place with a severe priest shortage? to minister to other autistic people or to a parish?) and the needs of that jurisdiction and the judgment of the vocations director.
I honestly don’t see a point to this discussion because there is no one clear answer when it comes to a mental impairment.
Just found this. Wow!
Tis_Bearself
Patron
I’m sure there is already everything in place that one would need. Otherwise, how would large groups of deaf Catholics (for example at a place like Gallaudet) ever participate in the Mass?
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acanonlawyer
Guest
I see. Yes, I don’t think that would work too well… Would it be valid? Not sure about that.
Dan
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JS_Cortez
Guest
I didn’t think that work well either. But signing seemed to be a solution and it seems based on that video, that already occurs.
So, with signing seemingly being an option, the only seemingly real impediment would be if a diocese or a particular order would be willing to ordain a young man who was nonverbal due to autism, but was able to sign.
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mrsdizzyd
Guest
A global developmental disorder… Not all persons with autism have mental health challenges.
My son is moderately autistic (not high-functioning). Apart from mild anxiety, my son has no intellectual or mental disabilities.
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mrsdizzyd
Guest
Yes, indeed, there are some high-functioning people with Autism who are non verbal…
My typical son has such a child in his class. He is a little timid and uses sign language, but otherwise, he is able to function at grade level.
I’m not trying to nitpick. As a mom of a child with Autism, I just feel it is really important to clear up misconceptions about the disorder. There is so much we don’t know and so much stigma we are trying to overcome.
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
Whatever word you want to call it. Like I said, I have friends who have it, friends who have children with it, and workers in my workplace with it. Most of these people are high functioning. Sorry if I didn’t use the absolutely correct word but I’ve seen people involved with it argue themselves over what word to use to describe it.
It’s a disorder of the mind and it can affect someone’s ability to function, especially on the interpersonal level. Regardless of what word you use, it CAN (I’m not saying it does) interfere with a priest’s ability to function as a priest. The one who would make the judgment about a candidate would likely be the vocations director who would meet in person with the candidate and observe, discuss, ask questions, gather other information as needed. It is not something where we can make a blanket pronouncement about.
It’s a disorder of the mind and it can affect someone’s ability to function, especially on the interpersonal level. Regardless of what word you use, it CAN (I’m not saying it does) interfere with a priest’s ability to function as a priest. The one who would make the judgment about a candidate would likely be the vocations director who would meet in person with the candidate and observe, discuss, ask questions, gather other information as needed. It is not something where we can make a blanket pronouncement about.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
I have also seen Moms of children with autism get into protracted arguments over it.
I am bowing out of this thread now, have said my piece.
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