NonViolence

[JimR-OCDS]

I’ve been studying the concept of on non-violence, I recently read a book by Mark Kuralansky, Non-Violence, which was very interesting, but Mark takes it on more of a political social issue and at times seems a little anti-religious. He goes so far as to blame St. Augustine’s “Just War” doctrine, in that many have have abused the doctrine or stretched it to fit their own ends.

Last week-end, I did a search at the library on the title, “nonviolence,” and about the only book that came up was Mark Kurlansky’s, and not much else.

So, I decided to do a keyword search on nonviolence and a list came up. The first book was not on the self, so I went to the second source and bingo, I found a winner.

"The Peace of the Present; an UnViolent Way of Life, by John S. Dunne.

John Dunne is a professor of Theology at Notre Dame University.

Dunne’s book is on the spiritual level. In fact, the first chapter is about removing your desires in order to replace it with your true desire, which is love. He uses Jesus’s example and quotes the Imitation of Christ, and St Teresa and John of the Cross. When I saw this I knew I was at home.

He also quote’s other promoters of nonviolence like Gandhi. As I thought about nonviolence and what I had just read in Dunnes book, a quote by Gandhi came to mind, " You must be the change you want to see in the world." How true! Violence begins in the heart. You can be violent with yourself, violent in your words, and sometimes these are more damaging than using your fist.

Unless you change the desires of the heart, you will not transform into what it is you truly seek. Death to self-centeredness, is the fundamental principle to holiness in all religious traditions. Of course we need the transforming grace given to us through Jesus Christ, for this change to take place. We however have to be open to it.

Since I’ve been going down this path, I’ve become amazed at the amount of rejection and even hate filled responses I’ve received, especially in Christian forums, when I speak of nonviolence, especially in rejection of the current war we’re involved in. However, I’ve also received much acceptance, confirmation and agreement. I think that I’ve come to understand why there are different attitudes from Christians in how they accept the concept of living in the spirit of nonviolence. One group, practices religion. They follow all the rubrics to the letter and demand that everyone else follow them. They also demand that you accept what they accept and reject what they reject. They have the least amount of understanding when it comes to discusions on nonviolence. Of course, they support the so called “war on terror,” as it’s being played out by this administration.

They other group are those who are contemplatives, the spiritual followers of Christ. They understand and have a grasp on the entire subject. They of course reject this so called war on terror.

However that being said, the most hate filled responses come from secular conservatives. Those who have no religion or spiritual tendencies. However, this doesn’t leave secular liberals off the hook either. Although they accept the idea of nonviolence, when it supports their arguments against the Bush administration, they are hardly non-violent in their language, with those they disagree with.

We live in a violent society and not many people talk about living a life in the spirit of nonviolence.

I never thought this subject could be so fascinating and something that you get to experience as you learn about it.

Anyway. I thought I would open a thread here on the subject to see how people think and feel about it.

In Christ Name
Jim

 

[Della]

They other group are those who are contemplatives, the spiritual followers of Christ. They understand and have a grasp on the entire subject. They of course reject this so called war on terror.

Okay, you can think non violence is the way to go, if you like. It’s no skin off anyone’s nose if you do. But to characterize those who disagree with you as ignorant, not spiritual, and narrow minded is hardly the way to make friends for your side of the issue.

I assure you I fully grasp the situation, I have a healthy spiritual life, and I am not in the least narrow minded merely because I follow the Church’s teachings on just war and not the ideas of Ghandi or any other person who is only speaking for himself.

 

[Tedster]

Of course, they support the so called “war on terror,” as it’s being played out by this administration.

I’m sure you must be happy that there are those who disagree with your ideas, and who are giving their lives in this “so called ‘war on terror’”. It is they that give you and me the right to believe as we wish.

In a perfect world, non-violence would be the norm. But evil has entered our non-perfect world whether we like it or not and I’m not so sure our enemy would be that willing to embrace a non-violent way of life.

.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Okay, you can think non violence is the way to go, if you like. It’s no skin off anyone’s nose if you do. But to characterize those who disagree with you as ignorant, not spiritual, and narrow minded is hardly the way to make friends for your side of the issue.

I assure you I fully grasp the situation, I have a healthy spiritual life, and I am not in the least narrow minded merely because I follow the Church’s teachings on just war and not the ideas of Ghandi or any other person who is only speaking for himself.

Nowhere did I call anyone ignorant, narrow minded. Yes there are those who practice religion, but lack spirituality, this is a fact of life and it reflects in the way they treat people. I didn’t direct it at anyone specifically. Obviously not you.

But I was talking about people who attack reject nonviolence as a way of life and often attack the people who promote it. Look at all the people who promoted and lived lives of nonviolence and you’ll see that governments considered them dangerous, more dangerous than terrorist themselves.

Embracing the spirit of nonviolence is not a better than thou frame of mind, I’m sorry if you took it that way, it’s not the way I feel, because I have not come close to living a life of nonviolence, but in fact, I’ve just begun to walk down this path. I actually never realized that I had violent inclinations within me and serving in the Marine Corps, or studying martial arts, had nothing to do with it.

The reality is, for anyone to live in the spirit of nonviolence, they will have to be spiritually strong, because it will require wisdom
to overcome an oppressor who is physically more powerful than yourself. In fact, Gandhi said that those who lack the spiritual strength, probably should not attempt to be advoctes nonviolence. They will not succeed and will end up using violence inappropriately and thereby cause more harm than good.

I knew this would be a hard subject to talk about in an objective manor when I posted it. I’m amazed that it would be difficult in a Catholic Forum.

In Christ Jesus, The King of Peace
Jim
Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I’m sure you must be happy that there are those who disagree with your ideas, and who are giving their lives in this “so called ‘war on terror’”. It is they that give you and me the right to believe as we wish.

In a perfect world, non-violence would be the norm. But evil has entered our non-perfect world whether we like it or not and I’m not so sure our enemy would be that willing to embrace a non-violent way of life.

.

You mention evil in the world, but evil in the world has existed since Adam and Eve. Often, evil is perpetrated by those who say they are fighting against evil.

As an example. Two weeks before the surrender of Germany in WWII, an air force fighter squadron who had flown multiple B-17 missions over Germany, were suddenly called out to fly a mission, where they were to bomb a French village, that had German soldiers in it. The German soldiers had already laid down their arms and provided information to the allied forces that they were surrendering. They were waiting for allied forces to pick them up and send them to a POW camp or whatever. Anyway, the bombadier of the B-17 squadron, was surprised when he showed up at the plane at the airfield, to see them loading retrofitted 50gal drums filled with napon. They ended up firebombing this village with these gas bombs, destroying the village and everyone in it, including civilians.
Now we’ve seen to ignore these actions or even justify them, by pointing out the atrocities of the Nazis, where were horrible in themselves. However, how could a moral people, as we claimed to be, do such a thing? How can we who are suppose to be the good guys, who are bringing justice to the Iraqi people, do what we did in Abu Ghraib?

The justifications for these acts, fall on their face in light of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Yet, the arguments justifying such acts are given, with along with venom.

In Christ
Jim

 

[Tedster]

However, how could a moral people, as we claimed to be, do such a thing?

So we are not a moral people because of the actions of a few? Show me a nation or civilization, including Ghandi’s, that was moral by your standards then.

How can we who are suppose to be the good guys, who are bringing justice to the Iraqi people, do what we did in Abu Ghraib?

These types of occurrences have happened in every conflict throughout history. Does that mean that you and I are held accountable for the rogue actions of a few? Should we not protect our nation because their might be a renegade in the bunch who commits a war crime? Then we will NEVER enter into conflict, whether it’s justified or not… and then what? How long until our enemies conquer us and take away your right to believe as you wish?

.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

So we are not a moral people because of the actions of a few? Show me a nation or civilization, including Ghandi’s, that was moral by your standards then.

These types of occurrences have happened in every conflict throughout history. Does that mean that you and I are held accountable for the rogue actions of a few? Should we not protect our nation because their might be a renegade in the bunch who commits a war crime? Then we will NEVER enter into conflict, whether it’s justified or not… and then what? How long until our enemies conquer us and take away your right to believe as you wish?

.

Criminal actions of a few, can not be the fault of a nation, but a nation that orders immoral actions, such as bombing of innocent people or the torture of prisoners, can be and must be held accountable. After all, we held Saddam Hussein accountable for such things.

But, this is goes to the political level.

What about the spiritual level?

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Jesus answered him, “Friend, do what you have come for.” Then stepping forward they laid hands on Jesus and arrested him.

And behold, one of those who accompanied Jesus put his hand to his sword, drew it, and struck the high priest’s servant, cutting off his ear.

Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its sheath, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.

Do you think that I cannot call upon my Father and he will not provide me at this moment with more than twelve legions of angels? Matthew 26:50-53

Here is an example of nonviolence that matches no other.

Jesus has in his hands, the power to call down twelve legions of angels to defend Him, but he does not.

The enormous amount of spiritual strength it would take to do such a thing, is beyond comprehension.

When I think about myself, I cave in so easily and use my resources to defend myself, whether over an issue at work, or even within these forums.

I’m trying to learn to take a nonviolent path.

Now, my understanding is that there is a difference between pacifism and nonviolence. Pacifism is not active. It sits back and allows to come what may. Nonviolence however, is active. Jesus action in the temple was nonviolence in that he was an activist, driving out the injustice from the temple. He was defending the people who were being cheated and defending the holy grounds of the temple. Yet in his arrest, Jesus plays both roles. He is a pacifist, allowing himself to be arrested, even though he knows the brutal torturous death he will go through, but he is also a participant in nonviolence by defending the Apostles, including Peter who drew his sword and assaulted another human being, cutting off his ear.

Then of course when I read the accounts of the early Christian martyrs, it amazes me on how they were so faith filled and spiritually strong, do face what they went through, and yet, not form militias or rebel groups and fight back,which would be the response by people in our world today, for transgressions against them, that don’t nearly match what the early Christians went through.

Jim

 

[Tedster]

Criminal actions of a few, can not be the fault of a nation, but a nation that orders immoral actions, such as bombing of innocent people or the torture of prisoners, can be and must be held accountable. After all, we held Saddam Hussein accountable for such things.

I did not order these things… I doubt that you did, either. A man or number of men may have. But to hold a WHOLE nation responsible for a few people’s actions? Our WHOLE nation must be held accountable? Then why don’t we hold Afghanistan responsible for the actions of Bin Laden? Iraq for the actions of Hussein? Italy for Moussalini, Germany for Hitler? etc, etc. etc. How should we punish these WHOLE nations for the acts of their leaders?

What about the spiritual level?

I will trust the Doctor’s of the Church, in particular Saint Thomas Aquinas whom have answered these questions quite well to my satisfaction. You may or may not find them helpful in your quest.

.

 

[ncjohn]

Hi Jim,

As one who struggles with many of the issues you bring up, and who has faced similar attacks, I am hoping to see answers to help me in my journey. Mostly I have looked for practical ways to help to be a peacemaker without condoning, or seeming to condone evil.

I was one of those who intially supported the invasion in Iraq, but on humanitarian grounds and not because of any suspected “weapons of mass destruction”. My interest was in seeing both the interior and exterior violence caused by Hussein stopped. As it turns out, more violence and bloodshed has occured since than had happened before, and it is getting harder and harder to see that the end result is an improvement.

As another practical example, I look at Darfur and try to determine the proper response. How do we alleviate the suffering there when it is surrounded by armed forces determined to stop any intervention? Do we stand by and watch? Do we use an “appropriate level” of violence to accomplish the goals? **Is there **an “appropriate level” of violence in this case? Or ever, for that matter?

Like you, I look within these Catholic forums, and see verbal violence on a daily basis. Those who think it perfectly acceptable to savage anyone who dares to question something they believe. Defending doctrine of the Church is a good thing. Viscously tearing people apart over whether they prefer Latin or English, or do or don’t see a need for headcoverings–while claiming to act in the name of God–is disheartening at best.

I don’t know if you’ve read *Peace is the Way *by Deepak Chopra. It’s not the most scholarly work I’ve read, but it has a lot of insight and some practical suggestions on things to approach.

We didn’t get where we are overnight, and won’t get back to the Garden overnight either. But we can allow ourselves to be a stone that God throws into His pond of creation to ripple out. It may not seem like much, but big movements all start with small ripples.

Be not afraid brother. He goes before us always.

Let there be peace on earth, and let it begin with me.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Tedster

I did not order these things… I doubt that you did, either. A man or number of men may have. But to hold a WHOLE nation responsible for a few people’s actions? Our WHOLE nation must be held accountable? Then why don’t we hold Afghanistan responsible for the actions of Bin Laden? Iraq for the actions of Hussein? Italy for Moussalini, Germany for Hitler? etc, etc. etc. How should we punish these WHOLE nations for the acts of their leaders?

We do punish whole nations for the acts of it’s leaders. We however, don’t hold our own leaders accountable for their acts.
We sent prisoners to what the CIA called, “Black Sites,” for interorrogation. These “Black Sites,” were nations that we knew would and did torture the prisoners we sent to them. When we found out, did we hold our leaders accountable? No, we did not.
So, in the eyes of the world, on the moral issue of torture, we have no credibility.

I will trust the Doctor’s of the Church, in particular Saint Thomas Aquinas whom have answered these questions quite well to my satisfaction. You may or may not find them helpful in your quest.

People over the centuries, have used the Just War doctrine, to justify their wars. Heck, Saddam could’ve used it.

Even though Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict said the war in Iraq was not just, many Catholics argue that it is. How can this be? Is it because we’re a violent society in general, who’s moral compass is broke?

Jim

 

[Bennie_P]

I don’t know if you’ve read *Peace is the Way *by Deepak Chopra. It’s not the most scholarly work I’ve read, but it has a lot of insight and some practical suggestions on things to approach.

Be not afraid brother. He goes before us always.

Let there be peace on earth, and let it begin with me.

I believe in non-violence for the most part, but then you lost me as an ally when you introduced Deepak Chopra for back up.

Deepak Chopra Hindi: दीपक चोपड़ा; born October 22, 1946) is an Indianmedical doctor and writer. He has written extensively on spirituality and diverse topics in mind-body medicine. He claims to be influenced by the teachings of Vedanta and the Bhagavad Gita from his native India, and quantum physics.

Jesus cool. Hindi’s not so cool? New Age spirituality never.

As for Ghandi, his non-violence was not so non-violent “He began his “Quit India” (1942) campaign and was jailed again. To be with her husband in jail, Kasturbi made an anti-British speech and was also arrested. The popular response to the jailing of the apostle of non-violence was violent. Post offices, railway stations and banks were burned. About 600 people were killed and 36,000 imprisoned.”
encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-55142837.html

Jesus didn’t force his opposition to kill others for his cause.

 

[ncjohn]

I believe in non-violence for the most part, but then you lost me as an ally when you introduced Deepak Chopra for back up.

Deepak Chopra Hindi: दीपक चोपड़ा; born October 22, 1946) is an Indianmedical doctor and writer. He has written extensively on spirituality and diverse topics in mind-body medicine. He claims to be influenced by the teachings of Vedanta and the Bhagavad Gita from his native India, and quantum physics.

Jesus cool. Hindi’s not so cool? New Age spirituality never.

With all due respect, it’s always nice if you’ve read something and have some idea what you’re discussing before condemning it.

There is nothing “New Age” about it. And by the way, the search for peace is an archetypal one that crosses pretty much all religious traditions.

I’ll take my gold wherever I find it. And without diminishing my Catholicism in the least, I’ve been often surprised by the holiness and sincere search for God that can be found outside our faith. Others of whatever stripe can still have good ideas about universal concerns. Last I heard they were all infinitely loved by God, and died for by Jesus, just as I am.

Peace,

 

[Bennie_P]

With all due respect, it’s always nice if you’ve read something and have some idea what you’re discussing before condemning it.

There is nothing “New Age” about it. And by the way, the search for peace is an archetypal one that crosses pretty much all religious traditions.

I’ll take my gold wherever I find it. And without diminishing my Catholicism in the least, I’ve been often surprised by the holiness and sincere search for God that can be found outside our faith. Others of whatever stripe can still have good ideas about universal concerns. Last I heard they were all infinitely loved by God, and died for by Jesus, just as I am.

Peace,

I disagree, he has written and he teachs a type of neo-hindu spitiuality on how to us mind control for healing. (This is not the first time I heard of him). It opens people up to multi-spiritual/ gods and godesses, that is other principalities. Respecting others non-christian beliefs is one thing, but practicing non-Christian religions for a Christian is not healthy for ones own spiritual health.

For more information on how the Church views the New Age and how it classifies it go to the Church source itself.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/documents/rc_pc_interelg_doc_20030203_new-age_en.html

Your right, Christ died for everyone and He is our judge.
We can only discern what is the best for ourselves, with His Grace.
I can condemn nothing, only God has that power, but I can make reasonable judgements.

 

[ncjohn]

I disagree, he has written and he teachs a type of neo-hindu spitiuality on how to us mind control for healing. (This is not the first time I heard of him). It opens people up to multi-spiritual/ gods and godesses, that is other principalities. Respecting others non-christian beliefs is one thing, but practicing non-Christian religions for a Christian is not healthy for ones own spiritual health.

For more information on how the Church views the New Age and how it classifies it go to the Church source itself.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/documents/rc_pc_interelg_doc_20030203_new-age_en.html

Your right, Christ died for everyone and He is our judge.
We can only discern what is the best for ourselves, with His Grace.
I can condemn nothing, only God has that power, but I can make reasonable judgements.

Again, there is nothing New Age about this book, and as I recall–I read it a couple years ago–it does not address specific spiritualities at all, but approaches to pursuing peace, which is a universal concept.

At any rate, are you saying in your original post that because a non-Catholic is also interested in pursuing peace that you aren’t interested? That we can only be at peace or pursue peace and non-violence with those who already think like we do?

I guess I just don’t understand exactly what you mean by “losing you as an ally”.

 

[Steve_M]

I wish I wouldn’ t have come across this thread, because it hits upon something that has kind of started bothering me as of late. Let me preface what I have to say by saying this. I’m politically very far right. I support the “war on terror” which I strongly believe is “World War III” because it’s every bit as much a war for the survival of civilization as was WWII. I believe Iraq is part of that war. I say this, not to debate whether the war is right or wrong, just or unjust, but to simply say where I’m coming from.

Then of course when I read the accounts of the early Christian martyrs, it amazes me on how they were so faith filled and spiritually strong, do face what they went through, and yet, not form militias or rebel groups and fight back,which would be the response by people in our world today, for transgressions against them, that don’t nearly match what the early Christians went through.

I read and study a lot of history. When I come across what the early Christians went through, somewhat willingly, it amazes me. I’m not particularly a violent person, but I do keep a loaded 12 gauge under my bed, so if someone comes into my home that doesn’t belong there, they’ll get shot. I wouldn’t hesitate to use violence if I felt threatened. That being said, I’m usually very laid back; however, if I knew someone was going to burn me at the stake, I’d probably try to resist.

I say all of that to say, that I can appreciate where you’re coming from. I don’t say that only those who support non-violence are spiritual. I’ve been struggeling with a lot of things lately. Things that take me away from Christ. Part of my struggel to come completely back, I didn’t go too far away, is if I want to become completely like Christ, and I do think that’s the ultimate goal of the Christian lfe, then I’m going to have to adjust my beliefs on a few things. The use of force or violence is one that keeps coming to mind. To that extent, this is usefull

Now, my understanding is that there is a difference between pacifism and nonviolence. Pacifism is not active. It sits back and allows to come what may. Nonviolence however, is active. Jesus action in the temple was nonviolence in that he was an activist, driving out the injustice from the temple.

I’ve never thought about it that way. Anyway, I know I’ll disagree with a lot that’s said on this thread, but I’ll have to keep following it, because of the relevence it has toward my own situation.

One last note. You and others who talk about non-violence often talk about Gandhi. Please remember that Gandhi was successful, because his opponent was Great Brittian. If he’d have done what he did against say, Josef Stalin, he’d have been dispached of very quickly. For a non-voiolent approach to work, you have to have a somewhat willing party as the advesary.

 

[Bennie_P]

Again, there is nothing New Age about this book, and as I recall–I read it a couple years ago–it does not address specific spiritualities at all, but approaches to pursuing peace, which is a universal concept.

At any rate, are you saying in your original post that because a non-Catholic is also interested in pursuing peace that you aren’t interested? That we can only be at peace or pursue peace and non-violence with those who already think like we do?

I guess I just don’t understand exactly what you mean by “losing you as an ally”.

**I am for non-violent solutions, I just have an uneasiness with fellow Chistians/ Catholics advocating or promoting people such as Deepak Chopra, for if they think he is “cool” in one area then the spiritualty he teachs/ promotes would also be OK. And he is in business to sell his mind/body healing teachings. **

I believe we can find our solutions through the teachings of Chirst, for he is ultimate teacher of non-violence.

And yes I believe there is such thing as sins of the society, as well as personal sin. But we need to focus on our personal faults first. As GK Chesterton said, How does it go?
"What is wrong with the world, I am."
I appoligize if I came across rude.

One more thing NEW AGE also envolves political thought and actions.

PAX

 

[ncjohn]

… I just have an uneasiness with fellow Chistians/ Catholics advocating or promoting people such as Deepak Chopra, for if they think he is “cool” in one area then the spiritualty he teachs/ promotes would also be OK. And he is in business to sell his mind/body healing teachings.

I am mildly familiar with the fact that he has other books. I am not “promoting” **him **or any other stuff he has written. I have only brought up that specific book because it was a key step in my own journey toward non-violence.

I also admire Martin Luther King Jr.'s work in this area, and would have no problem recommending his autobiography; or the writings of Ghandi or Nelson Mandela. That doesn’t mean I accept or “promote” everything they believed or wrote; it means I admire their positions on peace and non-violence.

And just as you see the possibility of one “promoting” someone else’s other beliefs by acknowledging something good you have found in their works, I find a danger of condemning all a person has done because you disagree with some other unrelated belief, and thus casting aside a pearl of great wisdom.

But we need to focus on our personal faults first.

I totally agree that if we do not have peace within our own lives it will be very hard to have credibility or efficacy in pursuing peace outside.

I appoligize if I came across rude

I didn’t find you rude, and apologize myself if I seemed so. I think we’re both looking for the same thing, and may just be looking through slightly different lenses. And I guess that is one of the things that makes peacemaking difficult.

 

[blessedstar]

I think that a soul that resides in peace will not seek war or any violence. I think sound reason tells us that war will not establish peace as true peace is for all sides. I think whilever people seek for the ‘self’ then there will be war and violence. If all people think of the other rather than of ‘self’ then there will be peace, but absolute peace will not come for the entire world until Christ Jesus comes.

In this world we start with peace in our hearts and souls, then peace in our homes, peace between friends and neighbours and pray for peace in the world. There is not enough prayer and sacrifice for peace in the world.

We can be made a channel for peace and pray constantly with the prayer of our life offering ourselves as sacrifice for peace in the world. I believe that we must not let injustice happen to people or peoples and stand up for what is just recognising Christ Jesus in all people and therefore we must stand up for justice justly and personally I cannot justify war or violence to obtain justice because it always involves the blood of the innocent and always children suffer. Humanity does not spend enough time finding alternatives to war or violence, they quickly leap to it.

If we have the peace of Christ Jesus in our hearts and souls then no war or any violence will steal it from us, we do not seek war or violence and we always try to build bridges with and pray for those who feel so alienated from humanity that they do not see in each human face the common human family in God.

 

[blessedstar]

With all due respect, it’s always nice if you’ve read something and have some idea what you’re discussing before condemning it.

There is nothing “New Age” about it. And by the way, the search for peace is an archetypal one that crosses pretty much all religious traditions.

I’ll take my gold wherever I find it. And without diminishing my Catholicism in the least, I’ve been often surprised by the holiness and sincere search for God that can be found outside our faith. Others of whatever stripe can still have good ideas about universal concerns. Last I heard they were all infinitely loved by God, and died for by Jesus, just as I am.

Peace,

I agree Jim, peace is sought by belief systems. There is a measure of truth to be found in belief systems and we rightly say that the fullness of Truth resides in the Catholic Church. Our Late Pontiff stated this himself.

‘I have sheep who are not of this flock and I must tend them too’

The Peace we all truly seek is Jesus whether we know that or not.