NonViolence

[DiscernVoc]

Personally, I agree. I reached a conclusion that this war was not warranted and thus it didn’t pass my prudential judgment of a just war. I pray that more people would have a higher standard (based on how I interpret it using my prudential judgment) of a just war. I will even go so far as to assert that many (not all) reached an errant prudential judgment because of a faulty or undeveloped conscience.

But so long as I don’t have any evidence that their intent was to do evil, I have to stop short of condemning them or even their conclusion (sin requires knowledge and intent- stupidity is not inherently sinful). We need to respect the prudential judgment of other Catholics. Our capacity to judge is restricted to a narrow admonishment of objective sin (adultery, theft, etc. or direct incontrovertable evidence of intent to deny others human dignity).

I have no reason to believe that a single elected political leader supporting the war was motivated by desires of hegemony or control of economic assets of another (specifically oil). And I have no reason to believe that those in opposition were insensitive to the terror of living under an evil despot.

I agree that we should respect the prudential judgement of other Catholics. I am simply saying that in this situation I am disappointed with the amount of support many Catholics in this county still give to an administration that has shown questionable ethical standards. For instance, the members of the administration have repeatedly ignored the outcry from the global community, including the Vatican and the Red Cross, over human rights issues in Guantanamo and Abu Graib. The administration has made its policy of torturous interrogation tactics no secret. The military has used the Patriot Act to detain prisoners of war indefinitely, without charging them and keeping their incarceration a secret. Now I will concede there is no direct link between the administrations motivations for this war with hegemony or economic benefits but when your sole piece of evidence (the supposed pictures of WMD) is shown to be a fake you would expect those who were fooled to be upset. The problem lies with the fact that in our current two party system to vote pro-life we have to support a president that doesn’t espouse what I believe to be Catholic values. I believe that in this day and age, the issues I have just mentioned are objectively wrong. Just the fact that they are considered necessary by the administration and these torturous methods will probably be used again really hurts the argument that this is a just war.

Another reason why this war seems unjust is that the chaos in Iraq will probably continue for many years. There are now many terrorists in Iraq. I think we can safely say there are many more than before the war started. Now don’t get me wrong, I have no love for Saddam Hussein, but I don’t even know that the middle east or the Iraqi people are better off without him in there. When he was in power he at least kept the three ethnic groups from civil war( granted it was with genocide). What makes anyone think that the Shiites, if they come into power, will be any less murderous. They will probably institue an Islamic fundamentalist dictatorship and then they will most likely be allies with Iran, their Shiite neighbor and our sworn enemy and Israel’s most dangerous nemesis. To support this end makes no sense considering we are at “war” with Islamic fundamentalists (as long as we don’t get oil from them). Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t one of the requirements for a war to be just is for the outcome to be achievable and more moral than before the war. You can say that the administration was dumb. You can say they had good intentions. You can’t say that this was or is a just war.

I truly believe that if more Catholics were aware of these things these politicians couldn’t get away with what they do. Unfortunately our media is more concerned with Britney Spears’ bald head and Tom Cruise’s couch gymnastics.

Can’t wait for your response,
Jim

 

[Orionthehunter]

I agree that we should respect the prudential judgement of other Catholics. I am simply saying that in this situation I am disappointed with the amount of support many Catholics in this county still give to an administration that has shown questionable ethical standards. For instance, the members of the administration have repeatedly ignored the outcry from the global community, including the Vatican and the Red Cross, over human rights issues in Guantanamo and Abu Graib. The administration has made its policy of torturous interrogation tactics no secret. The military has used the Patriot Act to detain prisoners of war indefinitely, without charging them and keeping their incarceration a secret. Now I will concede there is no direct link between the administrations motivations for this war with hegemony or economic benefits but when your sole piece of evidence (the supposed pictures of WMD) is shown to be a fake you would expect those who were fooled to be upset. The problem lies with the fact that in our current two party system to vote pro-life we have to support a president that doesn’t espouse what I believe to be Catholic values. I believe that in this day and age, the issues I have just mentioned are objectively wrong. Just the fact that they are considered necessary by the administration and these torturous methods will probably be used again really hurts the argument that this is a just war.

Another reason why this war **seems unjust **is that the chaos in Iraq will probably continue for many years. There are now many terrorists in Iraq. I think we can safely say there are many more than before the war started. Now don’t get me wrong, I have no love for Saddam Hussein, but I don’t even know that the middle east or the Iraqi people are better off without him in there. When he was in power he at least kept the three ethnic groups from civil war( granted it was with genocide). What makes anyone think that the Shiites, if they come into power, will be any less murderous. They will probably institue an Islamic fundamentalist dictatorship and then they will most likely be allies with Iran, their Shiite neighbor and our sworn enemy and Israel’s most dangerous nemesis. To support this end makes no sense considering we are at “war” with Islamic fundamentalists (as long as we don’t get oil from them). Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t one of the requirements for a war to be just is for the outcome to be achievable and more moral than before the war. You can say that the administration was dumb. You can say they had good intentions. You can’t say that this was or is a just war.

I truly believe that **if more Catholics were aware **of these things these politicians couldn’t get away with what they do. Unfortunately our media is more concerned with Britney Spears’ bald head and Tom Cruise’s couch gymnastics.

Can’t wait for your response,
Jim

Can’t wait for my response “Jim”? Are you Jim-OCDS? Or were you just wanting a response from “him”?

Anyway, I don’t know what to respond to. This is just a rambling attack on your view of the Bush administration w/ tangential at best relationship to the subject of the thread. Furthermore you say you should respect the prudential judgment of others and then denigrate them. I guess that is a relationship to the subject of the thread- casting verbal violence.

Furthermore, to think that there is morality in keeping the peace with genocide is appalling.

 

[DiscernVoc]

Can’t wait for my response “Jim”? Are you Jim-OCDS? Or were you just wanting a response from “him”?

Anyway, I don’t know what to respond to. This is just a rambling attack on your view of the Bush administration w/ tangential at best relationship to the subject of the thread. Furthermore you say you should respect the prudential judgment of others and then denigrate them. I guess that is a relationship to the subject of the thread- casting verbal violence.

Furthermore, to think that there is morality in keeping the peace with genocide is appalling.

I never said there was morality in keeping peace with genocide. Saddam Hussein was a despicable, murderous bully, but he was a marginalized despicable, murderous bully. The situation in Iraq has degenerated significantly since Bush announced all the major fighting was over in 2003. Since then tens if not hundreds of thousands of people have perished due to our occupation of Iraq. These people would be alive if it wasn’t for this war. As Catholics when we support a war, we better be damned sure its being fought for the right reason and that the outcome will be morally superior to the status quo. You bring up the fact that some of these Catholics might not have properly formed consciences. Well not having a properly formed conscience is sinful inherently. This is precisely why we should take into serious consideration what our Holy Father has to say. With the exception of some of our clergy I have seen a real lethargy when it comes to these issues. Now you can say respect their prudential judgement over and over again, but even you admit you pray for them to be more discerning. What’s happened in this war is a clear example of why its so important to be more discerning. By the way, this issue is so close to my heart because I vote pro-life and I am a fierce proponent of non-violence. I dread the next election because I don’t want to support this oppurtunistic atrocity of a war but I refuse to vote for a pro-abortion candidate. By the way, my name is Jim too.

 

[DiscernVoc]

In my mind, the people who are against the war were for it when we went. The rush to war was overwhelming. Their new-found opposition to the war is nothing more than 20-20 hindsight and cynical political opportunism.

While I disagree that I am denigrating anyone’s prudential judgement this is as negative an assumption or more so than anything I have said. Like I said though, I don’t think either of these statements is a denigration of prudential judgements. Its just an opinion and something you or I may believe to be true. That is what these forums are for, to discuss these issues and to postulate on morality, philosophy, theology etc.

 

[DiscernVoc]

Part 2

I suggest you read the section of the Catechism on “Offense agaist the Truth”, particularly 2477 and 2478. You appear to have reached judgments about the interior state of fellow Catholics you don’t know personally. My best Catholic friend of whose interior state I respect greatly is more committed to this war than he was the day it started. Additionally, my experience with Catholics is that our theology and practice gives us great gift to admit our errors.

How come when I voice my opinion on people supporting the war its coming to a judgement about them and this doesn’t apply for you? I even admitted that my theory was an assumption and apologized if I was sounding to judgemental. Are these forums not meant for this kind of discussion?

 

[Amolibri]

Jim:“I knew this would be a hard subject to talk about in an objective manor when I posted it. I’m amazed that it would be difficult in a Catholic Forum.”
Amen, Jim.

John & Jim…thank you for your attempt at addressing this subject. I would recommend to all, searching out a Pax Christi (it is a Catholic organization) chapter in your area…or looking it up online. The Way of the Cross procession on Good Friday in Manhattan is an awesome experience.

It is disturbing to me when I read some of the posts on this topic…here and in other forums.

I am firmly on the side of non-violence, esp. in our society…it is SO obvious that violence has permeated our culture. This is a tragedy of large proportions. and for anyone for anyone to minimize that (new age??) is truly sad.
Not sure if I’ll stick around…but the 2 of you give me hope.

 

[DiscernVoc]

Jim:“I knew this would be a hard subject to talk about in an objective manor when I posted it. I’m amazed that it would be difficult in a Catholic Forum.”
Amen, Jim.

John & Jim…thank you for your attempt at addressing this subject. I would recommend to all, searching out a Pax Christi (it is a Catholic organization) chapter in your area…or looking it up online. The Way of the Cross procession on Good Friday in Manhattan is an awesome experience.

It is disturbing to me when I read some of the posts on this topic…here and in other forums.

I am firmly on the side of non-violence, esp. in our society…it is SO obvious that violence has permeated our culture. This is a tragedy of large proportions. and for anyone for anyone to minimize that (new age??) is truly sad.
Not sure if I’ll stick around…but the 2 of you give me hope.

Here’s an interesting tidbit. I have read Gore Vidal recently and while I don’t agree with everything he espouses, he made an interesting point. He states and documents that we have been in a constant state of military action since WW2. Our military has been involved in conflicts for fifty years without ceasing. We tend to take violence for granted. Most people are unaware of this fact. This is why Americans have such a hard time understanding why we are so hated. Now I am not saying we do not do plenty of good in this world, but is our military-heavy approach to world diplomacy really the proper way to keep the peace? The thing that disturbs me most is that we are a Christian majority. I know that there is a place for war. But is there a place for a fifty-year constant state of war?

 

[Amolibri]

Excellent questions!!! The answers are many and complex…perhaps… Or perhaps a matter of our “more is better” society not having the positive effect that we all assumed it would.

I heard a talk by Bill McKibben on the radio today…and he was talking about our assumption that the growth of our economy is always a good thing…well, we can see with the quality of air & water, etc…where that needs to be re-thought. Looks to me like the global economy is helping the elite…but is keeping the poor in servitude.

To me, our following of Jesus’ teachings, as you so correctly point out, as Christians we MUST choose non-violence. Preemptive violence has NO place in our culture. Wish more people would speak up for that.

 

[Eddy]

Jim, I’m not attempting to get involved in the debate, but have you come across John Howard Yoder’s ‘The Politics of Jesus’? It’s an excellent book, and worth buying for the chapter of Yoder’s analysis of the gospel of Luke alone.

 

[Contarini]

In my mind, the people who are against the war were for it when we went.

Not everyone, even if you are talking about politicians. And certainly not everyone period.

I guess I have a very different perspective on this because I was living in Europe during those fateful months of early 2003. Pretty much everyone I talked to was against the war (this included Americans, but they were liberal American academics doing research at the same German library where I was). I was against the war, and my friends back at Duke were certainly against the war.

Maybe this is a feather in the cap of ivory-tower intellectuals and Europeans! We were right when most Americans were wrong.

But try getting the average American to recognize this or give us any credit.

While I opposed going to war, I feel that we have an obligation to see this surge through and reassess its effectiveness. As a nation, we have made a mess with the best of intentions and have an obligation to not just run and hide in the safety of our borders.

I actually agree with this.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

I just believed and my belief has been reinforced by this experience that as the world’s policeman, we have unique obligations to defend the defenseless. However, we need to be invited by people more directly involved (either the citizenry themself or their neighbors). There was no invitation.

Yes, that is exactly right. Well, the second part–I’m dubious about any claim that the U.S. has a unique anything! But the moral and pragmatic principle is clear: if you intervene in other people’s business, it had better be because one party (with a clear case for self-defense themselves) invites you.

Edwin

 

[Amolibri]

An excerpt from today’s message from Dave Robinson, Director of Pax Christi USA:
Dear friends,

As followers of the nonviolent Christ in a world that is rife with violence and war, our vocation is prophetic witness. As Pax Christi USA, we witness to the transformative power of gospel nonviolence to create a world which is more peaceful, more just and more sustainable. Our work and our witness is rooted in hope–the hope that is revealed in the Resurrection, in the belief that there is a power greater than death in this universe, and that love is stronger than hate.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Amolibri
thanks for telling me about Pax Christi. I heard of them in the past, but didn’t know what they were about. I just found their web-site for those in the USA.

paxchristiusa.org/

Jim

 

[Amolibri]

Thanks for posting the link, Jim!

 

[Amolibri]

Hello, friends,
I’d like to share the latest from Fr. John Dear. Gave me much to think and pray about.
Thank you.

What’s so unusual about that?
By John Dear SJ
Created Jul 3 2007 - 08:58
“If you love those who love you, what recompense will you have? Do not the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet your brothers only, what’s so unusual about that? Do not the pagans do the same?” (Matthew 5:46-48)
These questions from the Sermon on the Mount get right to the heart of the spiritual life. Why don’t we love everyone everywhere unconditionally? Why not love our enemies, as Jesus said? Why go along with the culture of war and its arrogant, ignorant warmakers? Why not practice “agape” like Jesus and his greatest followers, saints like Francis of Assisi, Mother Teresa, Mahatma Gandhi, Dorothy Day, Dr. King, Ita Ford and the Berrigans?

Jesus is adamant. He wants us to practice universal, unconditional, sacrificial, all-inclusive, nonviolent love, in his words, “unusual love.” Be like God, he tells us; love everyone on the whole planet. He exceeds the ancient biblical commandment, “Thou shall not kill.” He even surpasses Isaiah’s call to “beat swords into plowshares.” He leads us beyond anger, despair, greed, fear, anxiety, selfishness, violence, murder, and war, to God’s own universal, compassionate love.With these challenges, Jesus throws down the gauntlet and compares our limited love to tax collectors and pagans. Tax collectors did the dirty work of the Roman empire by robbing the impoverished masses and collaborating with military domination. They profited from the sufferings of the poor. Pagans, in those days, were the heathen Romans themselves. This comparison must have shocked and horrified his audience. He calls us not to be like them, not to hurt anyone, not to live off the sufferings of the poor, and not to limit ourselves to the narrow expectations of our culture.

He’s trying to push us beyond our limits, to the heights of divine love, the highest ideal, the fullest potential of our humanity. He can’t understand our narrow, selfish love. “Why don’t you want to love everyone?” he asks in amazement. "Why are you so afraid to love universally? What have you got to lose? Why go along with everyone else’s low standards? Why practice the usual selfishness and cultural blindness of the empire? Why not aim higher, to the universal love of God?"I think Jesus presumes we are trying to love our neighbors as ourselves, to love our parents, children, relatives, friends and colleagues. But he wants us to love those around the world, especially those marginalized, disenfranchised and targeted by our nation, by the empire. He expects his followers to show active, creative love to the marginalized, the excluded, the poor, the hungry, the homeless, the lonely, the immigrant, the imprisoned, the unborn, the condemned, the sick, the elderly, the dying, and the enemy. He’s looking for something new and unusual, ultimately the love that nonviolently lays down one’s life for those in need.

This call to practice a love that transcends boundaries has always haunted, challenged and energized me. Even if few practice such love, even if most priests deny such universal love, the gauntlet remains right there in the Sermon on the Mount. I think it means traveling to places we normally would not go – soup kitchens, homeless shelters, prisons, death rows, refugee camps, hospitals, war zones – and there, to befriend, love and serve everyone in need. I think it means living with a heart as wide as the world. Jesus certainly demonstrates such extraordinary love by serving the poor and marginalized, breaking through his culture, resisting injustice and laying down his life nonviolently for a new world of love. “Be perfect just as your heavenly God is perfect,” he commands us (in Matthew’s version). “Be compassionate as your heavenly God is compassionate” (we read in Luke’s.) Matthew’s Greek word, teleios, is only used here and in 19:21 (“If you wish to be perfect, go sell what you have, give to the poor, and come, follow me.”) He speaks of striving for the goal of ultimate nonviolent love. Jesus is talking about reaching our divine potential. Surpassing our broken humanity and practicing perfect compassion, nonviolence, forgiveness and love. He must believe we can do this, otherwise, I don’t think he would have said it.This call is well worth pondering every day. It invites us to examine how well we love others and our enemies, how well we show compassion, how wide we might permit our hearts to grow. What is more beautiful than a life spent offering unconditional, compassionate love toward every living being on the planet? What could be more fulfilling, rewarding, or holy?
(cont’d)

 

[Amolibri]

last portion of the Fr. John Dear article:

Life is precious. We have only so much time here on earth. I hope more and more of us can begin anew to try to practice this unusual, universal love, this perfect compassion. I think it’s our vocation, the reason we were created: to love Christ in every human being, especially in the poor and in the enemy.

If we dare practice this unusual, universal love, I think we will enter the paschal mystery of nonviolence, the divine mystery of Love, and be filled with light, hope, and peace. In the process, we will help disarm the world.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

last portion of the Fr. John Dear article:

Life is precious. We have only so much time here on earth. I hope more and more of us can begin anew to try to practice this unusual, universal love, this perfect compassion. I think it’s our vocation, the reason we were created: to love Christ in every human being, especially in the poor and in the enemy.

If we dare practice this unusual, universal love, I think we will enter the paschal mystery of nonviolence, the divine mystery of Love, and be filled with light, hope, and peace. In the process, we will help disarm the world.

Ironically, I’ve just finished listening to two books on WWI. The best one was “The 11 Month, 11th Day, 11Th Hour.”
It was about how the alied forces launched an attack on the Germans, knowing there was only one hour left of the war, and after 11 AM, they would have to cease all combat operations. In that 1 hour, more human beings were killed than in the Normandy Invasion of WWII. Why?

Also, in this book, the French Jesuit and philosopher, Teilhard de Chardin is mentioned a couple times. Priest were conscripted into the French Army, just like everyone else. However, they were usually put into chaplain work. However, Teilhard De Chardin, for some reason was not allowed to be a Chaplin, but was assigned as a stretcher barer. As a result, Fr Teilhard de Chardin , was on the front lines of this bloody conflict, picking up the wounded and body parts, for 4 years of the war, right up until that final hour.

I need to read some of Teilhard de Chardin. I’m sure his experience played a part in some of his writings.

Peace Always
Jim

 

[Sheeniac]

Non-violence/Christ’s peace is a good way to live one’s personal life. But I think it important to recognize what the Church thinks:

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church

"2310Public authorities, in this case, have the right and duty to impose on citizens the obligations necessary for national defense.

Those who are sworn to serve their country in the armed forces are servants of the security and freedom of nations. If they carry out their duty honorably, they truly contribute to the common good of the nation and the maintenance of peace.107

2311Public authorities should make equitable provision for those who for reasons of conscience refuse to bear arms; these are nonetheless obliged to serve the human community in some other way."

So, while there are those who are against any types of war/killing, it is important to realize that they are substituting their own morality against what the Church teaches.

Since it is an opinion that many posters here have arrived at based on a well-formed conscience, I have no argument against it. I do think that some should not judge their fellow posters who do not agree with them.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Sheeniac;

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church

"2310Public authorities, in this case, have the right and duty to impose on citizens the obligations necessary for national defense.

Those who are sworn to serve their country in the armed forces are servants of the security and freedom of nations. If they carry out their duty honorably, they truly contribute to the common good of the nation and the maintenance of peace.107

2311Public authorities should make equitable provision for those who for reasons of conscience refuse to bear arms; these are nonetheless obliged to serve the human community in some other way."

So, while there are those who are against any types of war/killing, it is important to realize that they are substituting their own morality against what the Church teaches.

The Church isn’t saying that a person must fight in a war, if that war goes against their conscience. In fact, they state that the government must make provisions for conscience objectors.

Since it is an opinion that many posters here have arrived at based on a well-formed conscience, I have no argument against it. I do think that some should not judge their fellow posters who do not agree with them.

No one judged anyone.

Jim

 

[Bennie_P]

All that claim to promote non-violence are not always promoting truth nor peace, but may be promoting the Culture of Death.
How can an organization claim to be for peace yet…

[/quote]

http://www.catholicculture.org/reviews/view.cfm?r[**Pax Christi USA **

DESCRIPTION
According to their mission statement Pax Christi USA “rejects war, preparations for war, and every form of violence and domination. It advocates primacy of conscience, economic and social justice, and respect for creation. . . . Pax Christi USA works toward a more peaceful, just, and sustainable world.” Unfortunately, their version of violence and domination is often at odds with the Church and her teachings. They seem to care more about finding common ground with abortionists and the gay rights lobby than about working for true peace.

STRENGTHS
None Reported.
WEAKNESSES
·](http://www.catholicculture.org/reviews/view.cfm?r)Example(s)Mission statement includes language to give serious Catholics pause. (Fidelity)
·Example(s)Several articles encourage Pax Christi members to lobby to overturn the ban on the homosexual ministry of dissident New Ways Ministry founders, Sr. Jeannine Gramick and Fr. Robert Nugent. (Fidelity)
·Example(s)Among the dozens of articles opposing war and capital punishment there is only one on Pax Christi’s abortion stand, supporting the “seamless garment” approach. (Fidelity)
·
Many unorthodox Catholic, Protestant, and secular links (Fidelity)
·Example(s)Online Store which features dissident material (Fidelity)