NonViolence

[Amolibri]

Bennie, if you wish to be in attack mode (or quote a source that is), that’s your choice.

I know my personal experience with PaxChristi, and it has been most inspiring.
Peace be with you.

 

[Proletarian]

I’m not entirely sure where I stand on the issue; but we should keep in mind that Catholics were able to conquer Rome without using violence.

 

[Bennie_P]

Bennie, if you wish to be in attack mode (or quote a source that is), that’s your choice.

I know my personal experience with PaxChristi, and it has been most inspiring.
Peace be with you.

I have no problem with non-violence, for the most part, but for me it is problematic to align oneself with groups that mix the Church’s message and teachings on peace and justice with the gay rights and pro-abortion movements and claim to be for peace and justice.

If one embrace’s the Culture of Death and try justifiy it by twisting the words of peace and justice around it, one still has the Culture of Death, thus no peace nor justice and making those words and the Churchs teaching’s about them meaningless.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

All that claim to promote non-violence are not always promoting truth nor peace, but may be promoting the Culture of Death.
How can an organization claim to be for peace yet…

http://www.catholicculture.org/reviews/view.cfm?r

So because I’m opposed to the war, and because many people who are pro-choice and pro-gay marriage are also oppose the war, that places me on their side of every issue, and thereby, makes me against the Catholic Church ?

Gee, Pope John Paul II opposed the war and all violence, so what did that make him a left-wing liberal too?

Jim

 

[Bennie_P]

JimR-OCDS;2453761
So because I’m opposed to the war, and because many people who are pro-choice and pro-gay marriage are also oppose the war, that places me on their side of every issue, and thereby, makes me against the Catholic Church ?

Gee, Pope John Paul II opposed the war and all violence, so what did that make him a left-wing liberal too?

Jim

I’m opposed to the war, but I don’t join groups that fight for abortion. I was told by promiment member (and a theologeon) of PaxChristi, that the fastest way get rid of abortion is to ordain women.. Thier message is mixed and intertwined with the culture of death and anti-Church stance on many issues.

I was the president of the anti-war/anti-nuke group at my college for two years of the four years I was a member of that group. the mass majority of the anti-war movement is anti-church, pro-abortion, very heavy on “marxist thought and pholosophy”, and most of the religous groups associated with it were mainly as I stated in the first part of this sentence - you cannot expect to acheive peace if you sleep with the devil. I got involved as a believer in Christ thinking I could influence them, but in the end they influenced and deluted my Christian beliefs.
I have no problem with being against the war, but one has to be deluded to think that locking hands with the pro-abortion crowd will ever bring peace.

John Paul II was anti-war, but also very anti-socialist and PaxChristi tries to blend the two.

And as to those that are for gay-marriage and abortion are they really to be trusted if they cannot stand up for the Culture of Life?

By the way I never used the words left-wing liberal. In my eyes your either Catholic, think your Catholic, or not.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

By the way I never used the words left-wing liberal. In my eyes your either Catholic, think your Catholic, or not.

No, but the articles in the links you provided, did.

Also, going through Pax Chrisit’s web-site, I found nothing in there were they support abortion or gay marriage.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Bennie P

I’m opposed to the war, but I don’t join groups that fight for abortion. I was told by promiment member (and a theologeon) of PaxChristi, that the fastest way get rid of abortion is to ordain women.. Thier message is mixed and intertwined with the culture of death and anti-Church stance on many issues.

I didn’t see anything at the Pax Christi site, where they are advocates of abortion or gay culture. The Catholic Culture Link you provied, makes many accusations without providing proof. Also, they tend to cut and paste words from articles, which removes the context from which they were made. Its the same technique that anti-Catholic-fundamentalist groups do, when they attack the Catholic Church.

By the way I never used the words left-wing liberal. In my eyes your either Catholic, think your Catholic, or not.

The link you provided in the Catholic Culture web site used the term, “radical left wing groups.”

Jim

 

[Bennie_P]

The credibility problem is there and it own members know it.
Abortion rift troubles Pax Christi

Antiwar activist Elizabeth McAlister, who, along with her husband, Philip Berrigan, was going to receive this year’s Pope Paul VI Teacher of Peace Award, an annual award bestowed by Pax Christi at the national assembly, said the dispute over Lawson has deeper roots.
“Are we about seamless garment or are we about antiabortion?” McAlister asked. “Clearly many of these religious groups, including most of our [Catholic] universities, are antiabortion and pro-war and pro-death penalty and pro everything else,” she said.
Wiley, however, thinks abortion is the issue that is often slighted.
“If Pax Christi cannot get it together to be a pro-life peace organization at some point, I think it will lose a great deal of credibility with its own members,” she said.

As far as I know, they as a group still will not come out, nor stand as a pro-life peace organization, for fear of offending thier “pro-choice” members and alliances.

 

[Bennie_P]

Pax Christi of Pittsburgh

Pax Christi strives to create a world that reflects the Peace of Christ by exploring, articulating, and witnessing to the call of Christian nonviolence.

Interesting tid bit found on this Pittsburg site
**

Open letter to Bishop Wuerl and the faithful from Womanpriest candidate Joan Houk

**

Dear Bishop Wuerl,
A letter to be shared with the faithful
My name is Joan Clark Houk, the woman from the Diocese of Pittsburgh who is to be ordained a Roman Catholic Womanpriest in Pittsburgh on July 31, 2006. more…

Also on the web page …

Call to Action Pittsburgh

http://catholicpittsburgh.org/images/CTA-circleredsmall.gif We are:

• Catholics living contemporary spirituality
• Working together to renew our Church according to Vatican II
• Seekers of justice for all
• Women and men, laity, clergy and religious demanding justice for all
• People of action transforming society
• Praying together to transform the Church and ourselves
• Members of National Call To Action

The national Web page tries to keep everything look staight forward, But…

---

This web page seems to abandon but you get the drift, PaxChristi has some very strange bed fellows…

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Pax Christi of Pittsburgh

Pax Christi strives to create a world that reflects the Peace of Christ by exploring, articulating, and witnessing to the call of Christian nonviolence.

Interesting tid bit found on this Pittsburg site

---

Also on the web page …

The national Web page tries to keep everything look staight forward, But…

---

This web page seems to abandon but you get the drift, PaxChristi has some very strange bed fellows…

Well I don’t see what this has to do with the thread. When I opened the thread, I was barely aware of Pax Christi. Never visited their site nor read anything by them. The thread isn’t about Pax Christi and I think they were only mentioned once, prior to your attacks against them.

That being said, my original purpose for opening this thread, was to look at non-violence on a personal and spiritual level. This thread originally started in the Spirituality Forum and was moved here, because it took a turn and became more of a social issue.

Jim

 

[Bennie_P]

Well I don’t see what this has to do with the thread. When I opened the thread, I was barely aware of Pax Christi. Never visited their site nor read anything by them. The thread isn’t about Pax Christi and I think they were only mentioned once, prior to your attacks against them.

That being said, my original purpose for opening this thread, was to look at non-violence on a personal and spiritual level. This thread originally started in the Spirituality Forum and was moved here, because it took a turn and became more of a social issue.

Jim

I know, it was suggested to you.

One of my biggest problems with the issue of pro-life and non-violece is how people, I am not accusing you of this, cannot stick with it from the beginning of life to its natural end as the Church teachs, some just stick to the basic and most important issue of abortion, yet are very much in favor of the death penalty, or they are anti-war, but cannot make stand or take a stand against abortion, etc and etc.

I have this tension that just gets to me - not just with anti-war/ pro-choice crowd, but also pro-life/pro-gun crowd,etc., well you get the drift, I think. To me a rejection of the Culture of Death as JPII taught is the only way to go, no picking or chosing either way. Being a former peace activist, not that I’m now pro-war, the anti-war movement just doesn’t get it. And I know the pro-life movement still doesn’t quite get it all yet either.

Forgive me for coming at you as if I was attacking you personally. I wasn’t.

May the Peace of the Lord be with you.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I know, it was suggested to you.

One of my biggest problems with the issue of pro-life and non-violece is how people, I am not accusing you of this, cannot stick with it from the beginning of life to its natural end as the Church teachs, some just stick to the basic and most important issue of abortion, yet are very much in favor of the death penalty, or they are anti-war, but cannot make stand or take a stand against abortion, etc and etc.

I have this tension that just gets to me - not just with anti-war/ pro-choice crowd, but also pro-life/pro-gun crowd,etc., well you get the drift, I think. To me a rejection of the Culture of Death as JPII taught is the only way to go, no picking or chosing either way. Being a former peace activist, not that I’m now pro-war, the anti-war movement just doesn’t get it. And I know the pro-life movement still doesn’t quite get it all yet either.

Forgive me for coming at you as if I was attacking you personally. I wasn’t.

May the Peace of the Lord be with you.

Which is why I have never joined an anti-war movement nor pro-life movement, even though I support pro-life issues and non-violence, according to Catholic doctrine.

Most of these movements are political, and often get themselves involved in issues beyond the scope of their original mission.

Jim

 

[Amolibri]

"So because I’m opposed to the war, and because many people who are pro-choice and pro-gay marriage are also oppose the war, that places me on their side of every issue, and thereby, makes me against the Catholic Church ?

Gee, Pope John Paul II opposed the war and all violence, so what did that make him a left-wing liberal too? "
Jim

Well-said, Jim!

The ‘political’ nature of these groups is unfortunate, but a fact of our society…many want influence/power in the political scene. We still have the option of free association… (except perhaps in that diocese of Nebraska )

 

[Reynaud]

I’ve been studying the concept of on non-violence, I recently read a book by Mark Kuralansky, Non-Violence, which was very interesting, but Mark takes it on more of a political social issue and at times seems a little anti-religious. He goes so far as to blame St. Augustine’s “Just War” doctrine, in that many have have abused the doctrine or stretched it to fit their own ends.

Jim,

I was a seminarian in high school back in the middle 60’s. I became a conscientious objector to the Vietnam war, and all wars, based on the teachings of Jesus.

If you are looking for Jesus’ teachings on violence, the only account of Jesus approaching violence was in the temple where he did not make physical contact with any person.

I would also recommend that you check out the Jesuit John Dear’s web www.johndear.org and Pax Christi (the Peace of Christ) web site, www.paxchristiusa.org.

I don’t know if Jesus was God’s son or Constantine the Great encouraged Romans and Greeks to adopt Jesus as God’s son so that his death could be seen as something that God wanted and that “Catholics” would not have to take his teachings seriously.

Peace!

 

[Bennie_P]

I would also recommend that you check out the Jesuit John Dear’s web www.johndear.org and Pax Christi (the Peace of Christ) web site, www.paxchristiusa.org.

I don’t know if Jesus was God’s son or Constantine the Great encouraged Romans and Greeks to adopt Jesus as God’s son so that his death could be seen as something that God wanted and that “Catholics” would not have to take his teachings seriously.

Peace!

 

[Amolibri]

JimR-OCDS;2119026:

I’ve been studying the concept of on non-violence, I recently read a book by Mark Kuralansky, Non-Violence, which was very interesting, but Mark takes it on more of a political social issue and at times seems a little anti-religious. He goes so far as to blame St. Augustine’s “Just War” doctrine, in that many have have abused the doctrine or stretched it to fit their own ends.

Jim,

I was a seminarian in high school back in the middle 60’s. I became a conscientious objector to the Vietnam war, and all wars, based on the teachings of Jesus.

If you are looking for Jesus’ teachings on violence, the only account of Jesus approaching violence was in the temple where he did not make physical contact with any person.

I would also recommend that you check out the Jesuit John Dear’s web www.johndear.org

and Pax Christi (the Peace of Christ) web site, www.paxchristiusa.org.

I don’t know if Jesus was God’s son or Constantine the Great encouraged Romans and Greeks to adopt Jesus as God’s son so that his death could be seen as something that God wanted and that “Catholics” would not have to take his teachings seriously.

Peace!

Hi Reyaud,
You really stirred things up here…good for you. I’m a proud member of PaxChristi USA and a local chapter in NY. Among our members are a nun and a priest…so Bennie, don’t get upset about it. We are studying PEACE and how to achieve it.
Reynaud, I read Fr. John Dear’s column every week, and it’s an inspiration to me. I admire you for your stand against wars and violence.

 

[Lou_F]

I like that quote by Thomas Merton, it’s right on the mark. Love and non-violence should always be used to solve our problems. But do you think that violence is NEVER necessary? Do you think that using violence is NEVER a form of love? If a person who is non-violent sees his or her innocent loved one being brutally attacked, is it not a form of unselfish love to defend the life of the innocent with the use of violence at that life threatening moment? Would it not be irresponsible to not step in and physically defend your innocent loved one? Would it not be an act of merciful love?
We however, do not do enough to exhaust all our options to bring peace and God’s Love into this world. Our most powerful weapon to bring God’s Love and Peace into this world is the Mass. Shouldn’t we have more Masses said for the living than the dead? Shouldn’t we have Mass for those who pose the greatest threat to world peace and for those who risk losing their souls? I’m all for having Mass said for the souls in purgatory, but is it not more important to have Mass for souls to be saved from eternal hell fire than from the temporal fires in purgatory? If a carpenter has the proper tools and supplies to fix his house but doesn’t feel like using them, the house either doesn’t get fixed or he substitutes inferior supplies that won’t hold up as well. Most of us are all guilty of not having Mass said for our enemies and those in most need of God’s mercy on a consistent basis. Though I disagree that violence should NEVER be used, I do agree that we should use our most effective non-violent weapon.

 

[Amolibri]

Hello, Lou.
Thank you for your thoughts. I agree about Masses for the living…excellent point. I don’t know that I or anyone has ever said that “violence” is NEVER justified. The point is that it’s justified TOO MUCH!

Yes, let’s have more thought and contemplation of how to promote NON violence…Lord knows we need this attitude in our society.

Peace be with you always,
Lena

 

[Lou_F]

Amolibri,

Sorry about my misuderstanding regarding your view. I also need to make a correction about something else I said. The quote by Thomas Merton may not be on the mark after all. Our true idenity and our true desire for being is not found in all the desires he mentions. Our true desire for being should not be “to be loved”, but to be humble. I don’t know if humility circumferences love or love circumferences humility, but maybe humility is more of a solution to peace than love itself. Without question, both are needed, but our desire to be loved in return should not be a requirement. Love is a gift, therefore maybe we should stop acting like we “deserve to be” loved in return from anybody.

Also, think about how many billions of dollars we spend on this Iraq war each month. If the U.S. just raised the bounty on Osama Bin Laden to a billion dollars right of the bat, along with maybe the top ten terrorists for a billon dollars a piece, maybe thousands of lives could have been spared. Money can’t buy love but maybe money can buy peace. Maybe the peace seekers and those who value life would work a little harder to stop terror. Maybe the giver can set boundaries on how and where that reward money can be spent (i.e. not for making new weapons, funding terror,etc… Plus, it would be wise to make these boundaries known beforehand). Maybe the giver can help guide the recipient on wise methods of investing. Where help is needed in the recipient’s own country, maybe the giver can guide the recipient on the importance of helping the poor, sick, and dying. Above all, I still truly believe that having Masses for our enemies and maybe even having one for ourselves will give the grace needed to combat evil non-violently.

 

[Amolibri]

Amolibri,

Sorry about my misuderstanding regarding your view. I also need to make a correction about something else I said. The quote by Thomas Merton may not be on the mark after all. Our true idenity and our true desire for being is not found in all the desires he mentions. Our true desire for being should not be “to be loved”, but to be humble. I don’t know if humility circumferences love or love circumferences humility, but maybe humility is more of a solution to peace than love itself. Without question, both are needed, but our desire to be loved in return should not be a requirement. Love is a gift, therefore maybe we should stop acting like we “deserve to be” loved in return from anybody.

Also, think about how many billions of dollars we spend on this Iraq war each month. If the U.S. just raised the bounty on Osama Bin Laden to a billion dollars right of the bat, along with maybe the top ten terrorists for a billon dollars a piece, maybe thousands of lives could have been spared. Money can’t buy love but maybe money can buy peace. Maybe the peace seekers and those who value life would work a little harder to stop terror. Maybe the giver can set boundaries on how and where that reward money can be spent (i.e. not for making new weapons, funding terror,etc… Plus, it would be wise to make these boundaries known beforehand). Maybe the giver can help guide the recipient on wise methods of investing. Where help is needed in the recipient’s own country, maybe the giver can guide the recipient on the importance of helping the poor, sick, and dying. Above all, I still truly believe that having Masses for our enemies and maybe even having one for ourselves will give the grace needed to combat evil non-violently.

Hello Lou,
Well, I think we are into semantics here with Merton. Parsing his quote leads one to question, I guess. My gut reaction to it, is that it is a yearning we have…right or wrong.
As to all the billions…true enough…your wanting to “advise” about investing, etc, is commendable…but…we are talking about people who are willing to DIE…what does money mean to them?

Peace be with you,