North Carolina voters ban gay marriage, civil unions

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For starters…see CCC 900 on Duty of Laity; 904 – 905 on Participation in Christ’s Prophetic Office; 1829 on Fraternal Correction as part of Charity; 1868 – 1869 on Shared responsibility for the sins of others; CCC 1912-1914 on Responsibilities in Society; 2238 on Duties of Citizens; 2465-2473 on Living in & Bearing Witness to Truth).
I’ve read them and there is nothing contradictory to what I have stated. I have a problem with the lack of understanding of human relationships and how to best influence others and spread the word that God Is Love. Political strategies are emotionally and spiritually violent. The question is do we want a conversion of heart to love one another or do we want to win? The Sermon on the Mount and The Cross are the Supreme example and standard through which I incorporate the above CCC references.
 
What heterosexual has the right to have a person of the same sex immigrate? A homosexual person has exactly the same rights a heterosexual person does regarding marriage and the rights that come with marriage.
Check immigration laws, and the different treatment accorded to foreigners married to citizens, but not those foreigners civil partnered with citizens.

rossum
 
Check immigration laws, and the different treatment accorded to foreigners married to citizens, but not those foreigners civil partnered with citizens.

rossum
I can’t marry a man. Neither can a gay man. What different treatment?

Peace

Tim
 
Very, very sad. In 50-100 years everyone will look back on this with the same distaste as racism.

Oh, well, just another state that I’m never visiting if I can help it.

Also, OP; really? A DANCING EMOTICON? Yes, you can still get married in NC, just like you could before. The only thing this accomplished is banning marriage between two people of the same sex. I find it very… sad? I can’t even think of a word - deplorable that you can be so overjoyed that you beat back those icky gays and their agenda.

Again, it wasn’t your rights in question, it was those of gays. And you’re overjoyed you were able to deny them marriage rights.

You make me sick.
Homosexual behavior is not a race. Marriage between a man and a woman goes back to the beginning of the human race and is not something that any of us has a right to change at a whim. This has to do with Biology and natural law. There is one sex organ in the male body and one sex organ in the female body. These sex organs are made to fit with the opposite sex organ but not made to fit with the same. One has to ignore the design of our own bodies to not see this.
 
I’ve read them and there is nothing contradictory to what I have stated. I have a problem with the lack of understanding of human relationships and how to best influence others and spread the word that God Is Love. Political strategies are emotionally and spiritually violent. The question is do we want a conversion of heart to love one another or do we want to win? The Sermon on the Mount and The Cross are the Supreme example and standard through which I incorporate the above CCC references.
My offering of the sources links back to you posting about “God will judge” and then a subsequent post asking for some references. I’ll admit I may have misunderstood. My point is that the “don’t judge” plea is misapplied. We are to judge actions and help one another to a fuller life in Christ, not allow our friends and neighbors to head down the path to destruction.

My apologies if I misunderstood you intent.

Here is a great article you may enjoy:
blog.adw.org/2010/06/correcting-the-sinner-is-not-being-judgmental-it-is-an-essential-work-of-charity/
 
Hi, Ahs,

If you made a mistake here, I made the same one… 🙂

Ronald E., maybe it is the somewhat ambiguous way you are expressing your ideas. For example, Christ told us to love one another. The homosexuals appear to approach this as to hop into bed with whomever they chose because they ‘love’ them. Erotic love (using the Greek term) is not what Christ was talking about.

Actually, if you believe homosexual behavior is inherently disorered, I would appreciate you just saying so. If you don’t believe this way, I would also appreciate you just saying so. But, there are more I have to do than wonder just where you stand on this issue. I do not think anyone has a problem in knowing what Rossum’s position is on this matter… or, mine for that matter… 😃

God bless
My offering of the sources links back to you posting about “God will judge” and then a subsequent post asking for some references. I’ll admit I may have misunderstood. My point is that the “don’t judge” plea is misapplied. We are to judge actions and help one another to a fuller life in Christ, not allow our friends and neighbors to head down the path to destruction.

My apologies if I misunderstood you intent.

Here is a great article you may enjoy:
blog.adw.org/2010/06/correcting-the-sinner-is-not-being-judgmental-it-is-an-essential-work-of-charity/
 
My offering of the sources links back to you posting about “God will judge” and then a subsequent post asking for some references. I’ll admit I may have misunderstood. My point is that the “don’t judge” plea is misapplied. We are to judge actions and help one another to a fuller life in Christ, not allow our friends and neighbors to head down the path to destruction.

My apologies if I misunderstood you intent.

Here is a great article you may enjoy:
blog.adw.org/2010/06/correcting-the-sinner-is-not-being-judgmental-it-is-an-essential-work-of-charity/
Thanks for the link. I am aware of this concept. The only people I have seen who are able to correct someone who may be about to commit a sin, although the person identified as the sinner may not be aware that the action is a sin, are those who pray silently and with no signs outside abortion clinics. I have seen extreme beautiful expressions of faith from these people. There is no judgment in this case, there is love, which is very obviously an expression of God’s Love through them. In correcting someone who is judged as being a sinner, it is very easy to commit a sin doing this and I have seen people sin at doing this without an awareness that they have sinned. One of the sins is the sin of pride. Another is anger. I will not go on. Thanks for being so kind.
 
I used to care about this issue, but then I realized something: It’s a non-issue.

It’s a distraction. It means absolutely nothing because marriage with the state doesn’t mean a darned thing anyways. Heck, few marriages mean anything anymore.

I’m not saying I’m for legalizing it, I just don’t care. I really can’t bring myself to care.
 
I suppose that may not clarify my position enough.

I am, or at least I greatly try to be, a practicing Catholic. I’m not perfect, I’m probably a joke in reality. I dunno.

I am also someone who deeply cherishes the beliefs and ideals outlined by the United States Constitution. I find much good in the political ideals that came out of the Enlightenment (religious beliefs…not so much)

Of course, the more I have learned about both, as I grown both in my faith and in my knowledge of political theory, the more I have found they have come into conflict.

Certainly, I know in my heart that God is always right, and thus, I agree with the Church. But at the same time, I fear imposing my own beliefs through law, because what if in the future, someone else controls the laws, and imposes their beliefs on me?

I have searched for balances between the two. How do I both give glory to God while protecting the free will He gave all peoples?

I have found some ideas on marriage that may strike the right balance: Get the state out of marriage completely. No more civil marriages or anything for anyone. Marriages should be up to churches, religious groups, or other organizations with various beliefs. Not as a way of condoning gay marriage, but as a way of truly getting the government out of religion’s way, because, if anything, how does civil marriage outside of the Church, being that it is unrecognized, truly differ from gay marriage? Marriage should be about God, not the government giving you tax breaks.

I don’t know. I desire to be a good Catholic (don’t worry about the abortion issue, I’m in agreement with the Church because abortion is no different philosophically from murder.), but I also agree with the tenets of classical liberalism.
 
I can’t marry a man. Neither can a gay man. What different treatment?
By marrying your opposite sex foreign partner, you gain immigration rights for them. By civil partnering your same sex foreign partner, you do not gain immigration rights for them.

That is the different treatment.

rossum
 
By marrying your opposite sex foreign partner, you gain immigration rights for them. By civil partnering your same sex foreign partner, you do not gain immigration rights for them.

That is the different treatment.

rossum
Will “civil partnering” your opposite sex foreign partner gain them immigration rights? THATS the question. If the answer the question is, “No” then it is precisely the same treatment and ONCE AGAIN gays are treated no differently than anyone else no matter how much you WANT that to be true
 
Will “civil partnering” your opposite sex foreign partner gain them immigration rights? THATS the question. If the answer the question is, “No” then it is precisely the same treatment and ONCE AGAIN gays are treated no differently than anyone else no matter how much you WANT that to be true
In the US, even if you marry your foreign same sex partner, in a state which allows it, they still do not gain immigration rights, because US immigration comes under Federal law, where DOMA still applies.

There is real discrimination enshrined in law.

rossum
 
By marrying your opposite sex foreign partner, you gain immigration rights for them. By civil partnering your same sex foreign partner, you do not gain immigration rights for them.

That is the different treatment.

rossum
A gay man can marry a woman and a gay woman can marry a man. Just like me.

I cannot obtain immigration rights for another man, straight or gay, by claiming him to be my partner. Just like a gay man cannot.

Same treatment.

And, since we don’t and won’t agree on this basic premise and I do respect you and have for a long time, let me just cut to the chase on this issue. I don’t care if a gay man cannot get immigration status for his partner. I don’t care if two men love each other. I don’t care if the world thinks that this is a civil rights issue. I don’t care if anyone thinks that I am being unfair or a hater or a homophobe or any other label they want to put on me, but I don’t think we should change history simply because society has decided that un-natural sexual attractions between members of the same sex are equivalent to those between members of the opposite sex.

I feel for those with same-sex attraction. I have a sibling that struggles with it. I love her exactly the same as I would if she didn’t have the problem. However, I was completely honest with her when she asked if I would attend her “marriage” if she were to ever find someone to settle down with. She understood that my answer had everything to do with my love for her and not because I am whatever I am going to be labeled for this post (homophobe, hater, bigot, whatever).

rossum, you and I have dialogued in the past and I don’t think that you believe that I am a lunatic. If this changes your mind about me, so be it, but it is what it is.

Peace

Tim
 
If you think you’re scoring any points in this debate by equating homosexuality and incest (and possibly child rape), then please keep doing so. All you’re doing is marginalizing your position and making it clear to anyone with anything resembling an open mind that your argument has gone off the rails.
If you think you’re scoring any points in this debate by equating homosexuality activity and natural marriage, then please keep doing so. All you’re doing is marginalizing your position and making it clear to anyone with anything resembling an open mind that your argument has gone off the rails
 
If you think you’re scoring any points in this debate by equating homosexuality and incest (and possibly child rape), then please keep doing so. All you’re doing is marginalizing your position and making it clear to anyone with anything resembling an open mind that your argument has gone off the rails.
It has been a long held belief by gay “marriage” proponents that thye should be allowed to marry whom they “love”. It is the proponents of gay “marriage” who make the equivication. If “love” is the basis for for granting marriage then it must apply across the board. If incstuous marriage is a problem for you too bad because it has to be allowed according to the argument lay out but gay “marriage” proponents. I can certainly understand why you wouldnt want to be associated with it but thats just how it is.
 
I’ve read them and there is nothing contradictory to what I have stated. I have a problem with the lack of understanding of human relationships and how to best influence others and spread the word that God Is Love. Political strategies are emotionally and spiritually violent. The question is do we want a conversion of heart to love one another or do we want to win? The Sermon on the Mount and The Cross are the Supreme example and standard through which I incorporate the above CCC references.
From CCC, emphasis mine:

**1886 **Society is essential to the fulfillment of the human vocation. To attain this aim, respect must be accorded to the just hierarchy of values, which “subordinates physical and instinctual dimensions to interior and spiritual ones:”

Human society must primarily be considered something pertaining to the spiritual. Through it, in the bright light of truth, men should share their knowledge, be able to exercise their rights and fulfill their obligations, be inspired to seek spiritual values; mutually derive genuine pleasure from the beautiful, of whatever order it be; always be readily disposed to pass on to others the best of their own cultural heritage; and eagerly strive to make their own the spiritual achievements of others. These benefits not only influence, but at the same time give aim and scope to all that has bearing on cultural expressions, economic, and social institutions, political movements and forms, laws, and all other structures by which society is outwardly established and constantly developed.9

I’ll also respond pro-actively to some possible objections you may have to this. “be able to exercise their rights” will probably be quoted since homosexual persons supposedly have the “right” to marry each other. As a Catholic, you should know this is false, but if not then this claim itself would need to be backed up with sources…which I guarantee will not be found within any Church documents.

Also “pass on to others the best of their own cultural heritage” is no help to any counter-argument since homosexual persons don’t have a culture distinct from heterosexual persons. Homosexual acts are sins, and of course we know as Catholics that we’re all sinners…so we’re all part of the same sinful culture. Their may be a weak argument for different “sub-cultures” of sin…but for one sub-culture to flaunt their distinctive sins in the face of the others, and try to convince them that sin is virtue, is hardly passing on the “best” of their heritage.

I hope this is helpful to you Ronald.
 
Grace & Peace!
I’ll also respond pro-actively to some possible objections you may have to this. “be able to exercise their rights” will probably be quoted since homosexual persons supposedly have the “right” to marry each other. As a Catholic, you should know this is false, but if not then this claim itself would need to be backed up with sources…which I guarantee will not be found within any Church documents.
I read an interesting article which touches on this (within the context of Obama coming our for same sex marriage and Cardinal Dolan’s statement in response) here. You may find it interesting. Here are some salient points:
…]The institution of marriage has been transformed from a social institution geared toward the bearing and rearing of children to an individualistic institution geared toward personal happiness and fulfillment. Once homophobia started to fade away, and gay people were finally treated with the dignity they deserve, then same-sex marriage – defined in this way – is a completely natural progression.

In other words, we now define marriage in purely Lockean terms, as the unfettered ability of the fully independent individual to choose and exercise power, to be fully in control of his or her possessions and persons. Marriage, in this sense, becomes a natural right and any prohibition against marriage becomes an unjust act of coercion, especially since there is no apparent competition with the rights of others.

Of course, this is far removed from the Catholic understanding of marriage. Here, any “right” to marriage cannot be distinguished from a corresponding “duty” to order the married life toward the good, including the good of society and the social order. It must be open to the bearing and rearing of children, and it must not create a false dichotomy between the unitive and procreative elements. Marriage is a sacred bond that cannot be dissolved, and for that reason requires a consent based on a deep understanding of the obligations that are being undertaken. As the Catechism summarizes, “unity, indissolubility, and openness to fertility are essential to marriage”. Marriage is not only a social bond – it is sacramental bond, giving it a superratural [sic] as well as natural dimension.

Here’s the problem – you would not know any of this from Cardinal Dolan’s press release yesterday, in which he found the “redefinition of marriage” to be “deeply saddening”. …] He claims that the decision to recognize same-sex marriage constitutes a redefinition of marriage, without any acknowledgment that heterosexuals have done a good job redefining marriage themselves.
Some of the commentary to the article makes the observation that since the USCCB’s position against the health mandate was couched predominantly in the terms of the modern liberal state that the Church in America has no real leg to stand on when it tries to articulate a stance that is clearly opposed to the terms of the modern liberal state that it had so enthusiastically embraced previously. I.e., by buying into the wrong terms of debate over the health mandate, the Church loses all credibility when it attempts to argue against them and from it’s own terms in the same sex marriage debate. With reference to the HHS debate, one poster writes: “What the bishops should have done is act like successors to the apostles, not acolytes of the Goddess of Liberty.”

It’s an interesting and troubling article with engaging subsequent commentary. I recommend it to you.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
 
The only people **I have seen **who are able to correct someone who may be about to commit a sin, although the person identified as the sinner may not be aware that the action is a sin, are those who pray silently and with no signs outside abortion clinics. **I have seen **extreme beautiful expressions of faith from these people. There is no judgment in this case, there is love, which is very obviously an expression of God’s Love through them.
Ronald, my emphasis above is meant to show you that you’re failing to see any point of view other than your own. How do you know that only those tactics succeed? Have you talked to each and every person who saw a sign outside an abortion clinic and verified that it didn’t influence them in a positive way? The ones you mention are certainly good tactics…but please broaden your mind a bit to include the possibility that others could be touched by God in different ways than you are.

I’m sure you’re familiar with the concept that God can even use evil to accomplish His will…which of course is perfect goodness and love. Now, I’m not claiming that we should strive to use evil means, or should be happy when something evil happens because it may result in a good outcome. What I’m saying is that in a perfect world we’d be able to use the softest, gentlest methods possible to correct all potential sinners…but this is not a perfect world.

I have four small children, and I try to use gentle language, hugs, rewards, etc whenever possible to encourage them to make good choices. But it’s not always possible. If they’re in eminent danger or even if they’re becoming stubborn in their refusals to make good choices, then I might resort to negative responses - time outs, taking away toys, and rarely physical discipline.

A society made up of individuals with well-formed consciences is in the same position as a parent. In ideal situations, society should guide with rewards and positive reinforcement. But in situations such as the “gay marriage” debate, where disordered ideas of love and supposed “rights” are used to justify putting the souls of our homosexual brothers and sisters in eminent danger, stronger methods must be used…for their own good. I know how arrogant that’s going to sound to many people. But I hope that Catholics will be able to see what I mean and help me explain it to those who don’t see it at this point. That the ultimate good we should care about is getting everyone safely into Heaven.

Again, I hope this is helpful.
 
Thanks for the link. I am aware of this concept. The only people I have seen who are able to correct someone who may be about to commit a sin, although the person identified as the sinner may not be aware that the action is a sin, are those who pray silently and with no signs outside abortion clinics. I have seen extreme beautiful expressions of faith from these people. There is no judgment in this case, there is love, which is very obviously an expression of God’s Love through them. In correcting someone who is judged as being a sinner, it is very easy to commit a sin doing this and I have seen people sin at doing this without an awareness that they have sinned. One of the sins is the sin of pride. Another is anger. I will not go on. Thanks for being so kind.
There is no virtue called “don’t say anything because it may offend someone to point out their sins.” I’ve backed out of this thread and our PM conversation until now mostly because I’ve been tied up at work and home but also because it is so frustrating to argue these topics, especially with Catholics, who will not listen to anything but their own intelligence and training. I’m sorry but we will answer to God, not books or our own opinions!

Are you really saying that if I tell you that you are sinning by living in a homosexual relationship and supporting the intrinsic evil of gay marriage that makes me a sinner? I was a sinner before you pointed that out by the way, but that is not the sin. In fact it could be a sin of omission if I don’t tell you by your support of SSM you are sinning; it may be then that I sin.

It is our duty as brothers and sisters to point out these things to move closer to Christ, not to tolerance of sin, but absence of it.

You have stated many times how “you’ve seen” so much hurt perpetrated by people on others by telling them the truth. Well I ask you, was it the truth that caused the hurt or the way in which it was delivered. I believe in many ways we are saying the same things, then at times we speak opposites; I know I’m confusing at times. If the message is truth and delivered with love and by the guidance of His Holy Spirit, it will produce good fruit, that my brother I have seen many times. On the other hand, if it is not the truth and it is delivered with love it is not guided by the Holy Spirit because Scripture tells us the Spirit will not lead us into untruth; is it really love? What is the fruit? Is it a temporary happiness or euphoria which will deflate in time? Love does not lie, or support lies. Love and charity is what brings hope.

It is pretty simple; we don’t need doctorate degrees to see truth. Pointing out sin and helping our brothers and sisters see their errors is our duty as Catholics. This is what Paul is explaining in that scripture you have retranslated, 1 Corr. It is not judgment to point out sin. This is your confusion. Also it is your confusion to see civil law as binding with Catholics when it comes against the Church, as in this case of the unjust law of same sex marriage. We are bound to follow just laws, not unjust laws.

…and by the way, with your standards of labeling sin, when you point out that I sin by telling others they are sinning you are sinning…wow, I think I am confused now.🤷
 
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