Norvus Ordo High Mass

[Homerun40968]

Are there particular dates in which all Norvus Ordo parishes have a high mass? Or does it depend on a certain event, unique to that parish only. The reason I ask is this: my parish had incense, many many priests, Latin hymns, and what appeared to be Vatican troops last Sunday.

Personally, that type of formality appeals to me. As a Protestant convert, I have always been drawn to the rich visual appeal that Roman Catholics provide, and when I heard about the Vatican II controversy, I immediately jumped to the TLM side, because it is more beautiful. Call me crazy, but the Gregorian chant and the richer formality seems great. It just goes to show you that the Roman Catholic Church has stood for 2,000 years and always will remain intact and unchanging, unlike the constantly-splitting Protestant denominations which I was once a member of. This in the point-of-view of a teenage Protestant (I will convert when RCIC starts in the fall).

 

[James0235]

Are there particular dates in which all Norvus Ordo parishes have a high mass? Or does it depend on a certain event, unique to that parish only. The reason I ask is this: my parish had incense, many many priests, Latin hymns, and what appeared to be Vatican troops last Sunday.

What you encountered seems to be a rare, rare, rare, rare (add a few hundred more rares in there) thing.

Very few parishes seem to have anything remotely approaching what you describe. I have been to quite a few parishes (dozens - maybe approaching 100) in several states and I have encountered a Novus Ordo High Mass in only one of them.

It is certainly a beautiful thing. Make sure the pastor knows how much you enjoyed it and that you would like to see it more often.

James

 

[Chatter163]

“Vatican troops”? Do you by any chance mean the Knights of Columbus, pictured below?

http://www.ihms.mb.ca/Archive/100 Y...otos/SATURDAY banquet/knights of columbus H18

 

[muffinmojo]

I’m also a teenage protestant convert(I was baptised this Easter) I also was drawn by the formality and sacred worship. Alas, there is no TLM high Mass in my area, but I do go to a pretty traditional Novus Ordo Mass(we have what you might consider ‘High’ Mass on holidays, feast days, etc). Good luck on finding one- and yes, be sure to mention to your priest that you appreciate it, or ask for it more often, for a TLM, or whatever.

 

[Praxis]

Are there particular dates in which all Norvus Ordo parishes have a high mass? Or does it depend on a certain event, unique to that parish only. The reason I ask is this: my parish had incense, many many priests, Latin hymns, and what appeared to be Vatican troops last Sunday.

Personally, that type of formality appeals to me. As a Protestant convert, I have always been drawn to the rich visual appeal that Roman Catholics provide, and when I heard about the Vatican II controversy, I immediately jumped to the TLM side, because it is more beautiful. Call me crazy, but the Gregorian chant and the richer formality seems great. It just goes to show you that the Roman Catholic Church has stood for 2,000 years and always will remain intact and unchanging, unlike the constantly-splitting Protestant denominations which I was once a member of. This in the point-of-view of a teenage Protestant (I will convert when RCIC starts in the fall).

To be blunt, there is no such things as “Norvus Ordo parishes.” There also nothing known as a high (or low) Pauline Mass.

What you experienced was the exercise of some wonderful options within the Ordinary Form of the Mass.

Just what is the “TLM side?” Those sorts of divisive remarks belong in the “traditional” Catholic forum.

Finally, “RCIA” = Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults

 

[snhs]

To be blunt, there is no such things as “Norvus Ordo parishes.” There also nothing known as a high (or low) Pauline Mass.

What you experienced was the exercise of some wonderful options within the Ordinary Form of the Mass.

Just what is the “TLM side?” Those sorts of divisive remarks belong in the “traditional” Catholic forum.

Finally, “RCIA” = Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults

There are Parishes which have purely the Novus Ordo, there are Parishes which have a combination of the Extraordinary Form and the Novus Ordo, and then there are those Parishes which have only Masses in the Extraordinary Form. What term would you prefer people use to distinguish between which Parish uses which Form?

I took the ‘TLM side’ to be a way of distinguishing his preference for one way of worship over another, which is allowed particularly for the reasons he implied. Traditional Catholics can often be the most faithful to the Church and her teachings, surely you can’t disagree with a teenager seeking out that kind of faithfulness? I also fail to see anything divisive in his remarks, indeed he actually spoke favourably of the NO he has seen which is something you would seldom, if ever, hear the ‘traditionalist’ groups you appear to be thinking of saying.

He is a teenager, depending on his age he may be preparing for RCIC rather than RCIA.

 

[scylla]

It is impossible to be unfaithful when you are upholding tradition. When you dismiss tradition you can be certainly unfaithful.

Saying that, support your priest when he shows our faithfulness to our fathers in the faith by remembering them in having the Mass done faithfully, with reverence and including our heritage as Catholics.

We should use the terms ordinary form and extraordinary form as our Holy Father does as it makes everything seem more united.

In Christ
Scylla

 

[Praxis]

There are Parishes which have purely the Novus Ordo, there are Parishes which have a combination of the Extraordinary Form and the Novus Ordo, and then there are those Parishes which have only Masses in the Extraordinary Form. What term would you prefer people use to distinguish between which Parish uses which Form?

I took the ‘TLM side’ to be a way of distinguishing his preference for one way of worship over another, which is allowed particularly for the reasons he implied. Traditional Catholics can often be the most faithful to the Church and her teachings, surely you can’t disagree with a teenager seeking out that kind of faithfulness? I also fail to see anything divisive in his remarks, indeed he actually spoke favourably of the NO he has seen which is something you would seldom, if ever, hear the ‘traditionalist’ groups you appear to be thinking of saying.

He is a teenager, depending on his age he may be preparing for RCIC rather than RCIA.

Again, there is no such thing as a “Novus Ordo parish.” Plenty of parishes around that do not have a scheduled EF, but they are not “Novus Ordo parishes” – they are Catholic parishes.

There is no “TLM side” – there is one Church, the Catholic Church. Trying to erect those artificial and divisive walls is terribly wrong. To suggest that “traditional Catholics can often be the most faithful to the Church and her teachings” is nonsensical. It depends on the individual Catholic. To infer that “traditional Catholics” are more faithful is simply wrong.

I was not aware teens go through RCIC. My apologies on that one.

This divisive traditionalist stuff belongs on the traditional Catholic forum.

 

[Praxis]

It is impossible to be unfaithful when you are upholding tradition. When you dismiss tradition you can be certainly unfaithful.

That’s simply not true. I know more than a few “traditional” Catholics who feel they are doing a great job of upholding “tradition” yet are very unfaithful to the Church because they do what THEY feel is best and not what the Church actually directs.

Saying that, support your priest when he shows our faithfulness to our fathers in the faith by remembering them in having the Mass done faithfully, with reverence and including our heritage as Catholics.

What a laugh! “Traditional” Catholics seem like the first to ATTACK rather than support their priests. Just go look at some comments on the “traditional” Catholic forum!

We should use the terms ordinary form and extraordinary form as our Holy Father does as it makes everything seem more united.

In Christ
Scylla

I fully agree there.

 

[scylla]

That’s simply not true. I know more than a few “traditional” Catholics who feel they are doing a great job of upholding “tradition” yet are very unfaithful to the Church because they do what THEY feel is best and not what the Church actually directs.

Please read my post carefully, I am not defending traditionalists as people, people do sin and do horrible things. I am upholding the truth of the faith in that to hold to tradition will never steer you wrong.
I know quite a few traditionalists who are quite holy and some rotten apples, in the same way I do know of some who pooh on tradition who are quite sinful and I not discounting the possibility out there of some who might be holy.

What a laugh! “Traditional” Catholics seem like the first to ATTACK rather than support their priests. Just go look at some comments on the “traditional” Catholic forum!

I fully agree there.
Again, I agree there are quite a few “traditionalists” who do attack priests rather than support. Even though in a spiritual sense this attack probably is supporting the spiritual welfare of the Priest, which is far more important that feelings or looks. Now regardless of the crummy dispositions of many “traditionalists” this doesn’t make tradition wrong or traditionalists wrong, it just goes to show that people sometimes can rub others the wrong way and certainly be rude.

We should be liberal in our charity, have open hearts, open minds, faithful to Christ, orthodox in doctrine and strong in our tradition.

In Christ
Scylla

 

[Praxis]

I am upholding the truth of the faith in that to hold to tradition will never steer you wrong…

In Christ
Scylla

Just what is “tradition?” It’s NOT Sacred Tradition.

 

[Homerun40968]

“Vatican troops”? Do you by any chance mean the Knights of Columbus, pictured below?

http://www.ihms.mb.ca/Archive/100 Y...otos/SATURDAY banquet/knights of columbus H18

Exactly! I had no idea who they were or what they were doing.

 

[scylla]

Just what is “tradition?” It’s NOT Sacred Tradition.

tradition is an affirmation of the truth of our faith in action.

For example, we believe that Jesus is present in the Blessed Sacrament, so as a reflection of that belief we ensure that reverence is held in His Presence, and one of the ways we do this is in our actions. To go against these actions would be denying our faith to affirm them never steers us wrong. So if I uphold the tradition of respecting Christ in the Blessed Sacrament I can never be steered wrong.

Veils are another example, it is good to affirm the use of a veil at Mass because of the Angels. To affirm the use of one is good. I am not argueing that it is required I am just stating the positive that it is good and holy to affirm traditions that reflect our Catholic belief.

In the same way we should kneel when Christ is presented to us as that reflects our belief that Christ is God.

I am merely presenting the positive and not the exceptions. So in anticipation to possible objections, please don’t think I am looking down on those who do not always affirm tradition. That is between them and God and of course I do not know their heart. I do not know why some cannot kneel and it is not for me to judge.

I am just affirming the positive that it is good to give the best for God, and not saying anything about when we do not. You can never go wrong when you give the best to God, that is the point of my original point.

In Christ
Scylla

 

[Tepeyac]

1. If you liked the incense, Latin hymns, etc. you saw at mass let your pastor know that it was appreciated. If you would like to see more “smells and bells” at mass him know as well. Approach him respectfully and kindly. If you offer to help in some way, that might encourage him as well.
2. Unlike the extraordinary form, the ordinary form does not have the distinction between high and low masses. In the missal there are a range of different options that a priest may use. It can be said very simply, or sung with a lot of ceremony, with a lot of room in between.
3. This might appear like the old distinction between high and low but it is not though some people might casually refer to a mass in the ordinary form as being high or low, for the sake of convenience.

 

[Praxis]

tradition is an affirmation of the truth of our faith in action.

Pardon? I really don’t follow…

For example, we believe that Jesus is present in the Blessed Sacrament, so as a reflection of that belief we ensure that reverence is held in His Presence, and one of the ways we do this is in our actions. To go against these actions would be denying our faith to affirm them never steers us wrong. So if I uphold the tradition of respecting Christ in the Blessed Sacrament I can never be steered wrong.

What actions? Most “actions” are universal to all Catholics. Those that are typically unique to those who claim to covet “tradition” are neither praised nor condemned by the Church. So adherence (or non-adherence) is a non-issue. Yes you CAN be steered wrong – when you suggest your personal beliefs trump what the Church actually directs.

Veils are another example, it is good to affirm the use of a veil at Mass because of the Angels. To affirm the use of one is good. I am not argueing that it is required I am just stating the positive that it is good and holy to affirm traditions that reflect our Catholic belief.

No, it’s not. While you might derive some sort of benefit from wearing a veil, suggesting it’s universally better is wrong and it’s not supported by the Church. It’s heterodox.

In the same way we should kneel when Christ is presented to us as that reflects our belief that Christ is God.

Nope, it’s different. The Church defines postures from us while we are in His Presence. We are obliged to follow them. The Church does not tell women to veil or not veil – that 100% personal preference.

I am merely presenting the positive and not the exceptions. So in anticipation to possible objections, please don’t think I am looking down on those who do not always affirm tradition. That is between them and God and of course I do not know their heart. I do not know why some cannot kneel and it is not for me to judge.

I don’t really think you know what “tradition” is. I’m not saying I do – I wish there was an authoritative definition.

I am just affirming the positive that it is good to give the best for God, and not saying anything about when we do not. You can never go wrong when you give the best to God, that is the point of my original point.

That’s where you fly off the rails. You suggest it’s giving God the best when you follow YOUR perceptions of what is “best.” As long as it’s not prohibited by the Church I see no problem with veiling, kneeling, etc. UNTIL you try to sell it as being “better” then what the Church actually directs.

Just follow the Church.

Someone posted a while back about a priest who knelt during the entire EP as he celebrated the Mass. Some “traditionalists” lauded his piety. I wondered why he chose not to follow the rubrics set by the Church. Why the liturgical abuse?

Put the pride on hold and follow the Church…

In Christ
Scylla

 

[Chatter163]

Personally, that type of formality appeals to me. As a Protestant convert, I have always been drawn to the rich visual appeal that Roman Catholics provide, and when I heard about the Vatican II controversy, I immediately jumped to the TLM side, because it is more beautiful. Call me crazy, but the Gregorian chant and the richer formality seems great. It just goes to show you that the Roman Catholic Church has stood for 2,000 years and always will remain intact and unchanging, unlike the constantly-splitting Protestant denominations which I was once a member of. This in the point-of-view of a teenage Protestant (I will convert when RCIC starts in the fall).

I see that you are from Atlanta. Have you attended the TLM parish there, St. Francis de Sales, in Mableton?

 

[rwoehmke]

To be blunt, there is no such things as “Norvus Ordo parishes.” There is also nothing known as a high (or low) Pauline Mass.
What you experienced was the exercise of some wonderful options within the Ordinary Form of the Mass.

Ya’all took the words out of my mouth. Good job.

 

[scylla]

Pardon? I really don’t follow…

Tradition is a reflection of our belief in Truth.
Example,
We kneel to Christ in respect to His being God, (this being a predominantly Latin Rite forum) I understand Eastern Catholics do otherwise and that is their tradition.

What actions? Most “actions” are universal to all Catholics. Those that are typically unique to those who claim to covet “tradition” are neither praised nor condemned by the Church. So adherence (or non-adherence) is a non-issue. Yes you CAN be steered wrong – when you suggest your personal beliefs trump what the Church actually directs.

Again you misrepresent what I say, all I say is tradition can never steer you wrong as it is just a reflection of God’s truth in our actions. Our personal beliefs must conform to the teachings of the Church. I never suggested my personal beliefs trump what the Church teaches, I submit 100% to the Church and believe 100% what the Church teaches. I have no problem at all with Church teaching and I wish we would hear about Church teaching more from the pulpit.

No, it’s not. While you might derive some sort of benefit from wearing a veil, suggesting it’s universally better is wrong and it’s not supported by the Church. It’s heterodox.

Oh I would beg to differ, as it is the custom of the Church and in imitation of Mary it is better.
I ask you then, would women imitating Mary and following the Bible’s suggestion be better than not doing so?
I am not saying it is a requirement, I am just saying it is better, and that is orthodox Catholic teaching. Just look at the recommendations of the Popes.

Nope, it’s different. The Church defines postures from us while we are in His Presence. We are obliged to follow them. The Church does not tell women to veil or not veil – that 100% personal preference.

I agree that some things are requirements, and some are personal preference. Just as it is personal preference to go to daily Mass. I just say it is better to go to daily Mass, I have not condemned anybody for not doing these sort of things. I just say it is better. We should follow the Church and do the most for God.

I don’t really think you know what “tradition” is. I’m not saying I do – I wish there was an authoritative definition.

Hmm, I don’t know why you disagree with me, at all. It seems you are confusing me with some angry people who don’t want to follow the Church.

That’s where you fly off the rails. You suggest it’s giving God the best when you follow YOUR perceptions of what is “best.” As long as it’s not prohibited by the Church I see no problem with veiling, kneeling, etc. UNTIL you try to sell it as being “better” then what the Church actually directs.

Read what Popes have recommended for 2000 years and you will find better ways to follow Christ. There is better ways and worse ways. The best for God is to be faithful, do the most for God and to give the most reverence. This is what the Church teaches and we should alway obey the Church.
Does the Church teach that kneeling, rosaries, piety, daily Mass, veils, are bad? or good? If they are good then they are upheld as something better to do than not do, as rejecting them would be rejecting something bad. The Church doesn’t always force us to do good but we should when we can.

Just follow the Church.

I agree, I have constantly upheld following the Church.

Someone posted a while back about a priest who knelt during the entire EP as he celebrated the Mass. Some “traditionalists” lauded his piety. I wondered why he chose not to follow the rubrics set by the Church. Why the liturgical abuse?

So have I upheld not following the rubrics as good? No I have upheld tradition which is always good. Not following the rubrics is wrong. Why do you choose to find an example of crummy “traditionalists” ? That has absolutely nothing to do with my point, again I am not talking about peoples poor behavior but about faithfulness to the truth of Christ.

Put the pride on hold and follow the Church…

I agree, humility is all about submitting to tradition and putting God first. We seek honor to Christ by giving reverence, allowing incense, kneeling and piety as it all gives glory to God. Humility is not about standing up to God but to submitting to His Majesty.

This is why I will kiss a Priest’s hand as I honor the hands that give me Christ and kneel for a blessing from a Priest of Christ. This is why the OP is right in praising this Mass.

In Christ
Scylla

Be liberal in our charity, loving in your heart, open in mind, faithful to Christ, orthodox in doctrine and strong in our traditions.

 

[Dauphin]

tradition is an affirmation of the truth of our faith in action.

Not that you’re wrong, but to be precise:

Sacred Tradition is that deposit of faith which has been passed down in its entirety and its integrity from the apostles to their succesors since the beginning of the Church. Catholics transmit this Tradition unaltered; we pass on what we have received. As such, we are guaranteed a continuity with the past. By examining what we believe and how we worship in the light of Tradition, we may be certain that we share the faith and essential practices of those who came before us.

 

[Praxis]

…Read what Popes have recommended for 2000 years and you will find better ways to follow Christ. There is better ways and worse ways. The best for God is to be faithful, do the most for God and to give the most reverence. This is what the Church teaches and we should alway obey the Church…

Actually I think I’ll follow what the Church ACTUALLY directs… There are not “better ways and worse ways” – only those approved by the Church and those that are not.

If the Church says we are (as an example) free to stand, kneel or sit during a specific segment of the Mass then one posture is NOT intrinsically better than the other two in that specific sitution.

Given that option by the Church you wouldn’t simply choose to kneel. You would suggest to others that kneeling is “better” than the other two postures – and you would be wrong.