Nostra Aetate

[AmbroseSJ]

mardukm:

The epistemological analogy to worship is identical because we only worship according to what we believe - the uttermost we can confess with Muslims is,“we worship together God Who is merciful, and Who will come to judge on the Last Day.” But it is utterly inappropriate (to say the least) to claim without qualification, “we worship together the SAME God” - because we DON’T. Muslims do NOT worship God Who incarnated, while we do. And no Muslim will admit that they worship God Who incarnated. So it is illogical to claim we are worshipping the same God.

But if we can say without any danger of error that “we worship together God Who is merciful, and Who will come to judge on the Last Day” than could we not say that the object of that worship is the same God in that restrictive sense?

 

[Fr_of_Jazz]

It says “together with us they adore the one, merciful God.” That’s not just attributes. That’s clearly a claim that we worship the same God–precisely because Muslims believe in the same fundamental attributes that Christians do.

It’s impossible for two people both to worship "the one, merciful God’ and not be worshiping the same God.

Edwin

Hi Edwin,
It actually does seek common ground and attributes are involved.

Here’s the whole quote from Lumen Gentium, 16: “But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.”

The even broader context of §s15-16 is the search for common ground the CC shares with other Christians, Jews, and Muslims–all three are monotheists at least “professing” to go back to Abraham. Remember it says we adore the “one” God.

Then it deals with pagans.

We worship one God, who is the Creator: they worship one God, who is the Creator. We worship the God of Abraham, so do they. That is all it is saying. It clearly says they have “not received the gospel” wherein Trinitarian truths are revealed.

 

[mardukm]

Hi brother AmbroseSJ,

Long time, heh?

But if we can say without any danger of error that “we worship together God Who is merciful, and Who will come to judge on the Last Day” than could we not say that the object of that worship is the same God in that restrictive sense?

Yes, I agree. If someone like Student123 asked me, “Do you worship the same God as the Muslims?” My response would simply be, “Muslims and Christians together worship God Who is merciful, Who will come to judge us on the last day.” But that is all I can say in good conscience. If he wishes to conclude any other fanciful extrapolation from that statement, that’s on him. If he wishes to conclude from that that Catholics are heterodox, I can’t help that, but I know such a statement (i.e., “Muslims and Christians together worship…”) is God’s own Truth.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Student123]

THIS is the most sensible post I’ve read on this thread on the actual text. I don’t know why Student123 did not respond to it.

It seems like Student123 was just baiting everyone, and a lot of people got hooked with Student123’s erroneous premise that Nostra Aetate was claiming that we worship the SAME God as Muslims.

Everything Nostra Aetate states is true. The attributes enumerated are recognized by both Muslims and Christians to be the same in the God that we respectively worship.

How that translates to the accusation that Nostra Aetate is teaching “we worship the same God” I cannot logically comprehend.

Seems to be typical of how non-Catholics justify their rejection of the Catholic Faith - attribute a teaching to the Catholic Church she does not actually teach and VIOLA, the Catholic Church is wrong!

Blessings

Blessings,
Marduk

I haven’t been responding becuase my internet plan isn’t that great.
I am not baiting anyone.
It is taught quite intensely in my Catholic high school that we all worhsip the same God

 

[mardukm]

I haven’t been responding becuase my internet plan isn’t that great.
I am not baiting anyone.
It is taught quite intensely in my Catholic high school that we all worhsip the same God

OK. Sorry for the assumption, brother. t seemed suspicious to me that of all the posts to which you did not respond, the one to which you did not respond was the most sensible. Sorry for attributing ulterior motives to you that you did not intend

I guess what you experienced is to be expected, but it is not the formal teaching of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church does recognize that Muslims and Jews and Christians all admit and recognize certain basic attributes about God. But our beliefs about God are certainly not the same. Since our worship is based only on our beliefs, then it cannot logically be stated that we worship the same God.

I think certain Catholics who say “we worship the same God” are TRYING to express simply that God is the same, regardless of our doctrinal beliefs about Him - in fact, as I’m sure you’ve learned as an Orthodox catechumen, God is actually beyond any conceivable human expression. But I think such Catholics are UNintentionally NOT taking into consideration that the term “worship” is a SUBJECTIVE indicator, because it is an indicator of BELIEF. We worship only what we believe and Christians certainly do not have the same beliefs about God that Muslims or Jews do.

I hope you can take that into consideration in your assessment of Nostra Aetate…The ONLY thing that the conciliar document is stating (in light of the fact that worship is an indicator of belief) is that we believe, along with Muslims, that God is merciful and will judge humanity on the last day. That is ALL it is saying. Catholics who claim “we worship the same God as the Muslims” are simply being sloppy with their terminology. Nostra Aetate is obviously (and necessarily) much more careful and concise with its language than your average Catholic.

I hope that helps.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Cassian]

God is a Trinity—Father, Son and Holy Spirit. How can we say Muslims and Jews speak of and worship the same God as Christians? Both Muslims and Jews reject the divinity of Jesus and the the Holy Spirit as equal persons of the one true God.

While we are on this subject there is another point about Pope Francis’ recent statement in Evangelii Gaudium:

****249. God continues to work among the people of the Old Covenant and to bring forth treasures of wisdom which flow from their encounter with his word. For this reason, the Church also is enriched when she receives the values of Judaism. **
**

How does that compare with St. Paul’s divinely inspired words?

2Cor.3

**[13] And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
[14] But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
[15] But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
[16] Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.**

---

According to divine revelation, Jews who reject Jesus have a vail over their hearts and minds and they are blind to the revelation of the Law and Prophets until they have faith in the Messiah Jesus Christ. This has been the teaching of the Church from the beginning.
How can the Pope make such an biblical statement that violates over 1900 years of clear unchanged teachings on this matter?

 

[Michael_Mayo]

God is a Trinity—Father, Son and Holy Spirit. How can we say Muslims and Jews worship the same God as Christians?

There is only one God no matter how we understand God’s nature.

 

[Cassian]

Jesus and the Holy Spirit are persons in the Holy Trinity, sharing the same nature as the Father. They are not “natures” but divine persons with the same divine nature. As believers, we also share in the nature of God through the infilling of the Holy Spirit and partaking of the Eucharist and the Word.

2John.1

** [7] For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.**

John.2

**[18] Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
[22] Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.**

1John.4

** [3] And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now **​

These are divine words inspired by God, not human speculation. The Holy Catholic Church and the Holy Spirit preserved these words so that believers may not be led astray.

 

[Contarini]

God is a Trinity—Father, Son and Holy Spirit. How can we say Muslims and Jews speak of and worship the same God as Christians?

Because they do not fully understand the nature of the God they worship.

Old Testament Jews didn’t worship a Trinity either. Somehow you and those who agree with you expect us to believe that the moment Jews rejected Jesus, the object of their belief changed even though the content of their belief remained exactly the same.

This makes absolutely no sense.

The orthodox, traditional view is not that Jesus came to proclaim a hitherto unknown God but that Jesus is the full manifestation in the flesh of the God who was already known to the people of the Old Covenant, and more dimly through natural revelation to others.

This God was not known as Trinity either by the people of the Old Covenant or by those pagans whom St. Paul acknowledged as having some knowledge of the true God.

Your position therefore sounds pious, but actually holds no water and results in either incoherence or Marcionite heresy.

While we are on this subject there is another point about Pope Francis’ recent statement in Evangelii Gaudium:

****249. God continues to work among the people of the Old Covenant and to bring forth treasures of wisdom which flow from their encounter with his word. For this reason, the Church also is enriched when she receives the values of Judaism. ****

How does that compare with St. Paul’s divinely inspired words?

2Cor.3

**[13] And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
[14] But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
[15] But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
[16] Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.**

---

According to divine revelation, Jews who reject Jesus have a vail over their hearts and minds and they are blind to the revelation of the Law and Prophets until they have faith in the Messiah Jesus Christ.

Blinded to the full truth of the Law and the Prophets, which point to Jesus, yes.

However, as with sixteenth-century Protestants vs. contemporary Protestants, there’s a huge difference between the Jewish leaders of Paul’s day, who rejected Jesus and the Apostles, and modern Jews, who cling to their traditions against a Church that has often mistreated and persecuted them.

This has been the teaching of the Church from the beginning.
How can the Pope make such an biblical statement that violates over 1900 years of clear unchanged teachings on this matter?

You haven’t explained how the Pope’s statement actually disagrees with what St. Paul says. He’s not denying that there is something significant missing in how Jews understand Scripture. But today, in contrast to St. Paul’s day, we need to emphasize what we have in common with Jews.

The equivalent of Jews today are Catholics. Catholics have received God’s revelation and often fail to live up to it. The language in the NT should not be applied to an “other” but to the group that one believes has received the fullest truth. All those who receive the truth are prone to these “veils”–to treat revelation as an ideology rather than as the manifestation of Jesus.

Pope Francis is not disagreeing with St. Paul. He is applying the polemic of the NT precisely where it ought to be applied, contextually–to those who are smug in what they think is the truth but do not open themselves to the joy of the Gospel.

It would be inappropriate, even monstrous, to beat the Jews over the head with the fact that we disagree with them. They know all about that. They have been mistreated, forcibly proselytized, and massacred for centuries in the name of Jesus. It is a betrayal of the Gospel to take the words of Scripture as an excuse for further belaboring Jews. That doesn’t mean that we deny our faith that Jesus is the fulfillment of God’s purposes for the world. Under certain circumstances, it’s even appropriate to state that faith to Jews. But with due modesty and courtesy.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

I guess what you experienced is to be expected, but it is not the formal teaching of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church does recognize that Muslims and Jews and Christians all admit and recognize certain basic attributes about God. But our beliefs about God are certainly not the same. Since our worship is based only on our beliefs, then it cannot logically be stated that we worship the same God.

I think certain Catholics who say “we worship the same God” are TRYING to express simply that God is the same, regardless of our doctrinal beliefs about Him - in fact, as I’m sure you’ve learned as an Orthodox catechumen, God is actually beyond any conceivable human expression. But I think such Catholics are UNintentionally NOT taking into consideration that the term “worship” is a SUBJECTIVE indicator, because it is an indicator of BELIEF. We worship only what we believe and Christians certainly do not have the same beliefs about God that Muslims or Jews do.

There is no logic here.

By your logic, Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox all worship different “gods,” and even within Catholicism a Thomist and a Molinist would worship a different God.

We do not worship our beliefs. We worship the Reality, inexpressible through language, to which our beliefs feebly point.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Hi Edwin,
It actually does seek common ground and attributes are involved.

Here’s the whole quote from Lumen Gentium, 16: “But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.”

The even broader context of §s15-16 is the search for common ground the CC shares with other Christians, Jews, and Muslims–all three are monotheists at least “professing” to go back to Abraham. Remember it says we adore the “one” God.

Then it deals with pagans.

We worship one God, who is the Creator: they worship one God, who is the Creator. We worship the God of Abraham, so do they. That is all it is saying. It clearly says they have “not received the gospel” wherein Trinitarian truths are revealed.

I think you are misunderstanding me. I don’t have a problem with what the document says. I’m disagreeing with mardukm’s claim that Vatican II (taking Nostra Aetate and Lumen Gentium together) didn’t say that Christians and Muslims worship the same God.

It seems clear to me both that the Council taught this, and that it is true.

Edwin

 

[Fr_of_Jazz]

I think you are misunderstanding me. I don’t have a problem with what the document says. I’m disagreeing with mardukm’s claim that Vatican II (taking Nostra Aetate and Lumen Gentium together) didn’t say that Christians and Muslims worship the same God.

It seems clear to me both that the Council taught this, and that it is true.

Edwin

Now that I look things over I see what you are saying. Thanks for clarifying: apologies for misconstruing your intent.

 

[mardukm]

By your logic, Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox all worship different “gods,” and even within Catholicism a Thomist and a Molinist would worship a different God.

Strange. I thought Catholics, the great majority of Protestants and Orthodox all worship the Trinity. I guess I’m wrong.

“There is no logic here.” Contarini.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[AmbroseSJ]

There is no logic here.

By your logic, Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox all worship different “gods,” and even within Catholicism a Thomist and a Molinist would worship a different God.

We do not worship our beliefs. We worship the Reality, inexpressible through language, to which our beliefs feebly point.

Edwin

The problem here is that now it tends to become syncretistic and make Truth relative. This is the great Liberal “heresy” fought by John Henry Newman.

Newman claims that Truth can be known, and can be expressed in language that allows for a shared belief and a shared Truth. It is the teaching of liberalism that the Truth can not be known, and can not be expressed in ways that can be shared among people. That is why Truth becomes relative. It is the culmination of the anti-dogmatic principle.

However we can express the Trinity in Theological language that maintains a certain hold on Truth that CAN be shared among Christians. Therefore it is valid and correct to say that Trinitarians DO worship a different God than the Jews and Muslims (even Jehovah Witnesses!) But we also acknowledge that there is only One GOD, and that these people DO worship the ONE GOD who is merciful and will Judge mankind on the last day. So we DO have common ground with them, but we worship differently, hence the object of our worship IS technically different.

I considered your reductio ad absurdum myself when pondering this question earlier, and decided that it was still True to that extent. IOW, yes everyone DOES have a slightly different view of GOD. Molinists and Thomists, Protestants and Catholics, Martyrs and Lukewarm Christians, etc. etc. So they all in effect do worship a somewhat different God, albeit, different by degree or depth, but not in Christian basics.

 

[Contarini]

Strange. I thought Catholics, the great majority of Protestants and Orthodox all worship the Trinity.

Of course. But you said simply “Christians do not have the same beliefs about God that Muslims and Jews do.”

Given that people before the coming of Christ did not believe in the Trinity (indeed, we could argue over how explicitly it was believed even early on among Christians, but I’m trying not to get into that), and yet Scripture and Tradition routinely acknowledge that Jews and even pagans did know about the true God, I think it’s far from self evident that “belief in the Trinity” functions as the marker dividing “belief in a true God” from “belief in a false god.” The more traditional position, and the position strongly implied in the texts of Vatican II (taking NA and LG together), is that belief in “the one merciful God who will judge humanity on the last day” is enough to denominate the object of that belief as the true God, even if those holding that belief differ on other essential points.

Edwin

 

[JReducation]

People are making a mountain out of a molehill. Nostra Aetate does say that the Muslims and the Jews worship the same God. It is true. They do.

This does not mean that they understand the Triune Nature of God.

The Trinity is indivisible. This is also true.

While one thinks that one is worshipping God as “Father” one is in fact worshipping the entire Godhead, because you can’t separate the three persons. This does not mean that the individual doing the worshipping has to be aware of it. As far as he thinks, there is one God who is Father.

His understanding of God’s nature is incomplete. But his understanding of the existence of God is as correct as our own. There is a God and there is no other.

 

[Usagi]

Same here.

The claim isn’t that Judaism and Islam are correct, much less salvific.

The claim is merely that all three religions stem from a common root and all “aim” at the same object of worship, the single God who revealed Himself to Abraham.

That the three make different claims about that God, claims that cannot all be true, is not denied. But as others have said, if the Greeks’ altar to an “unknown god” can be praised by Paul as unknowing reverence to the God Paul came to reveal, we can surely give at least as much credit to the other two “Abrahamic” faiths that have ideas of God even closer to ours.

Usagi

 

[Usagi]

God is a Trinity—Father, Son and Holy Spirit. How can we say Muslims and Jews speak of and worship the same God as Christians? Both Muslims and Jews reject the divinity of Jesus and the the Holy Spirit as equal persons of the one true God.

Because it’s possible to for multiple people to be talking about the same being even if some of them are wrong in their descriptions of that being.

Christianity developed out of Judaism. The Gentiles who became the majority of Christians had to be taught that the God of Abraham was the single God of the entire universe. It is ludicrous to assert that Jews now somehow worship a different God than the One we got from them. Yes, they reject the full revelation of the Trinity and Jesus as Messiah and God, and those are terrible errors. But they continue to worship the same Being they’ve always worshipped, albeit clinging to an incomplete understanding of Him.

Islam admittedly occupies a more perilous position, since we who don’t believe it to be an actual “corrected” revelation from God must conclude that it is a religion cobbled together from half-understood bits of Judaism and Christianity. Nevertheless, by virtue of that origin, Muslims too acknowledge and worship only the God of Abraham, the God of the Jews and Christians. They believe that the Trinity is an error they have corrected, so like the Jews they are wrong about God, but they’re still trying to talk about the same God.

While we are on this subject there is another point about Pope Francis’ recent statement in Evangelii Gaudium:

****249. God continues to work among the people of the Old Covenant and to bring forth treasures of wisdom which flow from their encounter with his word. For this reason, the Church also is enriched when she receives the values of Judaism. ****

How does that compare with St. Paul’s divinely inspired words?

2Cor.3

**[13] And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
[14] But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
[15] But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
[16] Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.**

---

According to divine revelation, Jews who reject Jesus have a vail over their hearts and minds and they are blind to the revelation of the Law and Prophets until they have faith in the Messiah Jesus Christ. This has been the teaching of the Church from the beginning.
How can the Pope make such an biblical statement that violates over 1900 years of clear unchanged teachings on this matter?

Pope Francis is not suddenly saying something new here. Both of his predecessors, at least, acknowledged that God continues to work among the Jews and that we can learn from them.

Furthermore, Paul himself had great sympathy for his fellow Jews, and believed that God still had plans for them as a people. The true branches may have been temporarily cut off to allow the grafting in of foreign branches (we Gentile Christians), but before the end God would bring the rest of the Jews into the fold as well.

If God intends a spectacular corporate conversion of the Jews to Christianity at some point before the end, then it makes sense that He has been preserving and molding them for that purpose all this time, rather than abandoning them. Just because most of them might be said to have a “veil” keeping them from the truth doesn’t mean that God has given up on them. At one point that “veiling” was true of the entire human race except the Jews, and we know now that God always had a plan to fix that.

Usagi

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother JReducation:

I agree with this:

This does not mean that they understand the Triune Nature of God.

The Trinity is indivisible. This is also true.

While one thinks that one is worshipping God as “Father” one is in fact worshipping the entire Godhead, because you can’t separate the three persons. This does not mean that the individual doing the worshipping has to be aware of it. As far as he thinks, there is one God who is Father.

His understanding of God’s nature is incomplete. But his understanding of the existence of God is as correct as our own. There is a God and there is no other.

I do not agree with this:

Nostra Aetate does say that the Muslims and the Jews worship the same God. It is true. They do.

Nostra Aetate and Lumen Gentium do not state the Muslims and the Jews worship “the same God” as the Christians. The word “SAME” is not used, and with good reason. It simply says they worship God who is merciful and will judge the world. And WE also worship God who is merciful and will judge the world. But unless you can give evidence that Jesus and Muslims worship the triune God, then it is not proper to say they worship they SAME God.

You say that people are making a mountain out of a molehill. But Catholics are not the ones who are doing so - rather it is NON-Catholics who are accusing the Catholic Church of teaching relativism or syncretism (as brother AmbroseSJ pointed out). That there are those outside the Church who could perceive that is a VERY serious thing, because it retards the Church’s mission.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[mardukm]

A very sensible post, brother.

Blessings

Because it’s possible to for multiple people to be talking about the same being even if some of them are wrong in their descriptions of that being.

Christianity developed out of Judaism. The Gentiles who became the majority of Christians had to be taught that the God of Abraham was the single God of the entire universe. It is ludicrous to assert that Jews now somehow worship a different God than the One we got from them. Yes, they reject the full revelation of the Trinity and Jesus as Messiah and God, and those are terrible errors. But they continue to worship the same Being they’ve always worshipped, albeit clinging to an incomplete understanding of Him.

Islam admittedly occupies a more perilous position, since we who don’t believe it to be an actual “corrected” revelation from God must conclude that it is a religion cobbled together from half-understood bits of Judaism and Christianity. Nevertheless, by virtue of that origin, Muslims too acknowledge and worship only the God of Abraham, the God of the Jews and Christians. They believe that the Trinity is an error they have corrected, so like the Jews they are wrong about God, but they’re still trying to talk about the same God.

Pope Francis is not suddenly saying something new here. Both of his predecessors, at least, acknowledged that God continues to work among the Jews and that we can learn from them.

Furthermore, Paul himself had great sympathy for his fellow Jews, and believed that God still had plans for them as a people. The true branches may have been temporarily cut off to allow the grafting in of foreign branches (we Gentile Christians), but before the end God would bring the rest of the Jews into the fold as well.

If God intends a spectacular corporate conversion of the Jews to Christianity at some point before the end, then it makes sense that He has been preserving and molding them for that purpose all this time, rather than abandoning them. Just because most of them might be said to have a “veil” keeping them from the truth doesn’t mean that God has given up on them. At one point that “veiling” was true of the entire human race except the Jews, and we know now that God always had a plan to fix that.

Usagi