Not a huge fan or TA

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I know alot of our theology is based on Thomas’ teaching… And I respect a lot of it.

Would I be a bad Catholic to go against some of his thoughts???

Is there another doctor of the Church I can look at for wisdom?

For instance his teaching on sexuality and who will be saved seems very odd to me(or scary)

Thanks and may God bless all of you!
 
Many parts of Thomas’s works/ideas/stuff has been vetted by the Church in one way or another. I would not sit down myself and sift through his texts and decide, “Ooh, I don’t like that one,” because for all I know I might be getting myself into some trouble.

My advice is, for those things that you are having trouble with, read about them in the CCC and other Magisterial documents. Try, as much as possible, to reconcile them before trashing Thomas (although I’m not saying you’ve trashed him).
 
Thomas Aquinas is ***not ***the only Doctor of the Church.

Here is a list from EWTN’s website from Fr. Hardon’s “Pocket Catholic Dictionary.”

Hildegard of Bingen & John of Avila are not on this list, as they were just made Doctors in 2012.
 
You can’t go wrong with any Doctor of the Church. Personally, I’m more of a Bonaventure guy than Aquinas. That doesn’t make me a “worse” Catholic.

That said, Aquinas is a cool guy who said cool things. When going against his stuff, compare with other Doctors and what the Church says first. If you’re “against” his stuff because you don’t like the delivery (but are fine with the content), then that’s alright.
 
I know alot of our theology is based on Thomas’ teaching… And I respect a lot of it.

Would I be a bad Catholic to go against some of his thoughts??? No.

Is there another doctor of the Church I can look at for wisdom? St. Bonaventure:thumbsup:

For instance his teaching on sexuality and who will be saved seems very odd to me(or scary)

Thanks and may God bless all of you!
He’s a major figure, but he’s not the Church.
 
He’s a major figure, but he’s not the Church.
Yes, however, it is not simply enough to say that.

If I quote Pastor Aeternus and you say, “I don’t believe your words,” you are essentially saying you deny the dogma of Papal Infallibility, for example. You are not only denying my words–which you are doing but that’s not all you’re doing–you’re denying something else.

So, one can disagree with Thomas, as long as by doing so one is not also denying the teaching of the Church. What Thomas says and what the Church says are not always the same, but they sometimes are.
 
Yes, however, it is not simply enough to say that.

If I quote Pastor Aeternus and you say, “I don’t believe your words,” you are essentially saying you deny the dogma of Papal Infallibility, for example. You are not only denying my words–which you are doing but that’s not all you’re doing–you’re denying something else.

So, one can disagree with Thomas, as long as by doing so one is not also denying the teaching of the Church. What Thomas says and what the Church says are not always the same, but they sometimes are.
I like your suggestion - follow the CCC.

You don’t have to read, or like St. Thomas to do that.

For spiritual benefit a person can then read St. Bonaventure or St. Teresa (or St. Theresa) etc.
 
I forget where exactly I saw this, but it was a picture of Aquinas and the caption was:

The orginal deep, fat, friar. 😃
 
I know alot of our theology is based on Thomas’ teaching… And I respect a lot of it.

Would I be a bad Catholic to go against some of his thoughts???

Is there another doctor of the Church I can look at for wisdom?

For instance his teaching on sexuality and who will be saved seems very odd to me(or scary)

Thanks and may God bless all of you!
That’s an interesting question. I guess “go against” is rather a blanket term. In many domains, St. Thomas Aquinas’ writings have formed the basis of Church teaching, and we can’t go against that.

But in others, the Church (acknowledging its limitations) has allowed for a multiplicity of opinions. For example, with regard to predestination / free will, one can follow either St. Thomas (as outlined, for example, in Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange’s book “Predestination”) or Molinism (my own view, but then I’m not a doctor of the Church :D).

If you could point out the specific areas of your concern, this discussion would be more fruitful. 😉
 
Brian, it has been my experience that when I thought the teachings of the Church were wrong, that I was the one who did not understand the why behind the teaching. I have not read enough TA to know whether his teaching on sexuality is the current understanding of the Church. Blessed JP II has done much to deepen our understanding of what God intends for our sexuality.

What I would suggest is this: When you find your views differing from the views of the Church is to study it and humbly bring it to the Lord in prayer. I can not tell you the number of times I have done this and the Lord has given me the understanding–not always right away, but when I need it.

Peace be with you, brother!
 
Brian, it has been my experience that when I thought the teachings of the Church were wrong, that I was the one who did not understand the why behind the teaching. I have not read enough TA to know whether his teaching on sexuality is the current understanding of the Church. Blessed JP II has done much to deepen our understanding of what God intends for our sexuality.

What I would suggest is this: When you find your views differing from the views of the Church is to study it and humbly bring it to the Lord in prayer. I can not tell you the number of times I have done this and the Lord has given me the understanding–not always right away, but when I need it.

Peace be with you, brother!
Not all teachings of St. Thomas are Church teaching, eg., he advocates the indissolubility of marriage “on the ground that the father is useful in the education of the children, (a) because he is more rational than the mother, (b) because, being stronger, he is better able to inflict physical punishment.”
 
Yes, however, it is not simply enough to say that.

If I quote Pastor Aeternus and you say, “I don’t believe your words,” you are essentially saying you deny the dogma of Papal Infallibility, for example. You are not only denying my words–which you are doing but that’s not all you’re doing–you’re denying something else.

So, one can disagree with Thomas, as long as by doing so one is not also denying the teaching of the Church. What Thomas says and what the Church says are not always the same, but they sometimes are.
One can also disagree with Thomas without disagreeing with the Church, as Thomas is by no means the only or the exclusive way of teaching what the Church holds true.

He was excellent at Aristotelian philosophy; that is not the “philosophy of the Church” as the church has no declared philosophical method.
 
St. Thomas Aquinas’ writings have formed the basis of Church teaching, and we can’t go against that.

/QUOTE]
I suspect you meant to say that St Thomas’ explanations have formed the basis of how the Church teaches Scripture and Tradition.

Scripture and Tradition form the basis of the Church teachings; St. Thomas used Aristotelian philosophical method to explain them. So also do Bonaventure, Augustine, and others, for example; they all speak to the Church’s teachings and the Church in turn uses their method for explanation.
 
Many parts of Thomas’s works/ideas/stuff has been vetted by the Church in one way or another. I would not sit down myself and sift through his texts and decide, “Ooh, I don’t like that one,” because for all I know I might be getting myself into some trouble.

My advice is, for those things that you are having trouble with, read about them in the CCC and other Magisterial documents. Try, as much as possible, to reconcile them before trashing Thomas (although I’m not saying you’ve trashed him).
Well…

For starters, Aquinas’ embryology is wrong. Like downright plain wrong. Like as in if you agree with it you are disagreeing with what the Church now says (n.b. Aquinas thought ensoulment of the intellectual soul, which is the unique, immortal one created by God, came at some point post-conception, which would make an embryo non-human until that point (this is perfectly consistent with his Aristotelian base). The Church now says that a person is fully human at the point of conception).

Also, Aquinas thought that only priests should be able to touch the Eucharist, and the Church never adopted this (despite what you hear from some Catholic circles) and allows Deacons (a basically blanket) permission to distribute the Hosts.

Personally, I have read some Aquinas (second half of the SCG Book II, some parts of the ST that have come up in research, and his Commentary of De Trinitate q. 5-6). I find it all very complex, and I’m not sure how useful some of his stuff is practically. Much of his writing is littered with unnatural or uncommon use of phrases and words (in the English language at least).

The other big one is one that affects all major metaphysical systems: Is the world actually like that? Is the world full of matters and forms or is that just a useful metaphor for describing it? Sure, the soul being the form of the body works a little better than Cartesian dualism, but is that how things actually are? In the world? Maybe, maybe not.

That’s always been my biggest disappointment with metaphysics as a whole. You can pretty much form any sort of internally coherent system in your head to explain how the world works, and it doesn’t necessarily mean anything. Is the world made of 4 elements? Matter and form? Material stuff and immaterial minds? Noumena? Monads? Is it all in God’s mind? Or are we all in the Matrix? This is the problem of the underdetermination of the senses.

In the end, it really doesn’t seem to matter. That’s what I’ve gotten from Thomas à Kempis at least. We aren’t going to be judged by how much we know or understand (because that’s just Pelagianism).
 
Yes, however, it is not simply enough to say that.

If I quote Pastor Aeternus and you say, “I don’t believe your words,” you are essentially saying you deny the dogma of Papal Infallibility, for example. You are not only denying my words–which you are doing but that’s not all you’re doing–you’re denying something else.

So, one can disagree with Thomas, as long as by doing so one is not also denying the teaching of the Church. What Thomas says and what the Church says are not always the same, but they sometimes are.
Just so everyone knows I am in no way going against any Church teaching but the other night when I made this post I came across one of Thomas’s teachings that made me feel incredibly uneasy… Pretty much he was saying that very very few are saved and part of the joy in heaven is seeing God’s justice against the damned…

I know the church holds his teachings in high regards and I have always thought he had some beautiful teachings… But after learning his views in that regard I felt literally sick and opened this thread… Maybe I should have waited and not posted anything knowing that one person’s views no matter how enlightened are not that of the Church.

In some weird way (my fallen nature I guess) I just wanted to hear others say that I do not need to hold all of his views as truth… Also I was wondering if someone else knows a doctor that has more hope for humanity than that.

Thanks
 
I think when dealing with any topic on the faith, it’s always best to err on the side of the saints. It’s not that they are right all the time, but if I’m going with my opinion versus that of the Angelic Doctor of the Church St. Thomas Aquinas, I’ll go with his opinions more often than not.

As to St. Thomas’s views regarding the fewness of the saved, you will find that a vast majority of saints agree with him in that regard. Here’s a link to some famous quotes of saints regarding this very topic: saintsquotes.net/selection%20-%20fewness.html

Here are just a few examples:
‘Behold how many there are who are called, and how few who are chosen! And behold, if you have no care for yourself, your perdition is more certain than your amendment, especially since the way that leads to eternal life is so narrow.’
  • St. John of the Cross, Doctor of the Church
‘The saved are few, but we must live with the few if we would be saved with the few. O God, too few indeed they are: yet amongst those few I wish to be!’
  • St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori, Doctor of the Church
‘The more the wicked abound, so much the more must we suffer with them in patience; for on the threshing floor few are the grains carried into the barns, but high are the piles of chaff burned with fire.’
  • Pope St. Gregory the Great, Doctor and Father of the Church
‘Not all, nor even a majority, are saved. . . They are indeed many, if regarded by themselves, but they are few in comparison with the far larger number of those who shall be punished with the devil.’
  • St. Augustine, Doctor and Father of the Church
‘The number of the elect is so small - so small - that were we to know how small it is, we should faint away with grief. The number of the elect is so small that were God to assemble them together, He would cry to them, as He did of old, by the mouth of His prophet, “Gather yourselves together, one by one” - one from this province, one from that kingdom.’
  • St. Louis Marie de Montfort
‘Meditate on the horrors of Hell which will last for eternity because of one easily-committed mortal sin. Try hard to be among the few who are chosen. Think of the eternal flames of Hell, and how few there are that are saved.’
  • St. Benedict Joseph Labre
St. Thomas Aquinas and all the holy Doctors of the Church, pray for us. :gopray2:
 
I think when dealing with any topic on the faith, it’s always best to err on the side of the saints. It’s not that they are right all the time, but if I’m going with my opinion versus that of the Angelic Doctor of the Church St. Thomas Aquinas, I’ll go with his opinions more often than not.

As to St. Thomas’s views regarding the fewness of the saved, you will find that a vast majority of saints agree with him in that regard. Here’s a link to some famous quotes of saints regarding this very topic: saintsquotes.net/selection%20-%20fewness.html

Here are just a few examples:

St. Thomas Aquinas and all the holy Doctors of the Church, pray for us. :gopray2:
Those quotes are truly depressing… If the number of those saved are so so small, then it is likely that no one we ever met, let alone ourselves are saved…

I can not see this with my ever so loving God…

I honestly pray that the quotes of the saints you posted are wildly wrong…

How could it be that every person I looked in the eyes are damned?
 
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