Not Another Civil-Unions Thread

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sealabeag

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My sincere apologies for another thread on this topic, but I’m genuinely still not sure of the answer to this question:
It seems, and this is up for debate, certainly, but it seems that the Pope, whilst Bishop and very possible still today, is in favour of civil-unions for homosexuals, for whatever reasons.

I don’t want a discussion on that particular question, as there are many threads on that already.

What I want to know is this: IF it is the case that the Pope does in fact support civil-unions for homosexuals, which as a Catholic we should not do, how does this affect things, if at all?
Does it have any effect on Pope Francis’ position as Pope? Or is it simply a case of a personal opinion that is contrary to Church teaching but that doesn’t affect things in any substantial way, except of course causing a lot of confusion amongst the lay-faithful.

I’d prefer not to hear personal opinions on this, but maybe something from canon law, the catechism, historical precedence, etc.

Thanks.
 
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sealabeag said:
It seems, and this is up for debate, certainly, but it seems that the Pope, whilst Bishop and very possible still today, is in favour of civil-unions, for whatever reasons.
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I need more information, but I know if if he DOES support them, that still isn’t Church teaching. Sensus fidelium is helping us on this one.Sensus fidelium
 
Even if Pope Francis in his personal view supports civil unions, the fact is that the Church opposes them, and that teaching against civil unions is on the Vatican website. But a personal opinion does not mean that Francis is no longer the pope. He is the pope.
 
sealabeag said:
What I want to know is this: IF it is the case that the Pope does in fact support civil-unions, which as a Catholic we should not do, how does this affect things, if at all?
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It doesn’t.
Does it have any effect on Pope Francis’ position as Pope?
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No.
Or is it simply a case of a personal opinion that is contrary to Church teaching but that doesn’t affect things in any substantial way, except of course causing a lot of confusion amongst the lay-faithful.
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Yes.

(It’s also questionable whether such an opinion would truly be “contrary to Church teaching” but that’s a whole other discussion, and one the forum has already had, so I am for purposes of my answer just accepting your presumption that it is.)
 
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Look at another issue, two Catholics who are in a civil marriage without being married “in the Church” or without any dispensations. The Church does not deny that they have the right to enter into a civil marriage, as that is a civil matter.

We, as Catholics, accept these people in their irregular situation. We treat them with kindness and human resepct and fraternity.
 
goout said:
I find that interesting given you are assuming an unfounded hypothetical, then asking for comment on it. Your question is based on a personal opinion .
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Exactly. OP, did you find anything in canon law or the Catechism or historical precedence that suggests that when the Pope says something like this, clearly not speaking ex cathedra, that something happens to make him no longer Pope, or less of a Pope?

You basically built up some bogeyman in your head with no source support, then you concern yourself with whether others are speaking from personal opinion to refute your personal opinion.
 
This is a case of the Pope’s personal opinion and is NOT a teaching of the Magisterium or in any way Biblical, both which outweigh the Pope. However, the Pope’s personal opinion is (rightly) the heaviest weighted opinion of a Catholic given his position. I am one who believes that Pope Francis is wrong, and that his advocation for this immoral law does more harm to his flock than it does good. One just has to look at the confusion, scandal it has caused, and how enemies of the Church use his words to make a world a more evil place. But in the end it is just his opinion and you do not have to agree with it.
 
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umamibella said:
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sealabeag:
is in favour of civil-unions for homosexuals, for whatever reasons.
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Could you link a statement drectly from the Pope about this please. I have not seen one yet.
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The statement that the Pope made, as it were, didn’t include the presumption of a sexual relationship between the pair, but rather, just a close relationship. The effect, in that case, would merely be to create the opportunity for health care benefits, survivor benefits, etc.

The context of the Pope’s actual statements can be found at CNA. In fact, in an article published yesterday, the entire explanation can be found.

As usual, the mainstream media took a meme that they wanted to hold up as normative, and attempted to make it look like the Pope was affirming the stance that they wish to lionize; when the whole story comes out, it turns out that he didn’t at all say what they imply he did…
 
Gorgias said:
The statement that the Pope made, as it were, didn’t include the presumption of a sexual relationship between the pair, but rather, just a close relationship.
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I feel like a broken record but as a gay individual I laugh at that presumption.
 
Yes it is a laughable presumption. Firstly, any devout Catholic would never put themselves in such an occasion of mortal sin just like any heterosexual couple should never live together before marriage. So then, those that do are clearly not going to be relationally or sexually moral so enshrining into law something equivalent to marriage is just degrading society. I vehemently disagree with Pope Francis. He needs to advocate specific discrimination laws that are affecting homosexuals and he can do it without enshrining immoral relationships.
 
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StudentMI said:
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Gorgias:
The statement that the Pope made, as it were, didn’t include the presumption of a sexual relationship between the pair, but rather, just a close relationship.
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I feel like a broken record but as a gay individual I laugh at that presumption.
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You seem to be saying that you feel it’s impossible for two people with sexual orientations toward each other to not be able to have a close relationship without it turning sexual? As a human, I laugh at that presumption. 😦

I get it, though. Society tells us “yeah, go ahead and have sex; that’s the proof and standard for a ‘relationship’.” Once you’ve bought into that, all the “innovations” of the past 50 years tend to happen.

Nevertheless, that’s the pope’s stance: while we cannot hold up sexual relationships outside the marriage of a man and a woman as the norm, we can be sensitive to those who do not wish that kind of life but should nevertheless receive the same sorts of financial protections that others do.
 
Honestly, I think this is absolutely nonsensical. Not what you said, but the idea that chaste homosexuals are entering into civil unions to obtain certain legal protections/rights.
 
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Just out of interest, and be honest - if it was just some random person, or priest, or bishop, making this argument about civil unions and close friends and whatnot, would you feel a need to defend it? Or, if it wasn’t the Pope, would you be less likely to feel the need to? Just curious, and I do think it’s natural to try to defend the Holy Father.
 
Society has civil unions, “marriages”, for divorced and remarried people. The Church teaches that civilly remarried couples are not truly married and it is objectively sinful. The Church does not actively speak out against these “marriages”.
I am sure the Pope, and most Catholics, are not against the civil marriages of divorced people because it does provide protections for the children and the individuals.
 
sealabeag said:
I don’t know what the Holy Father means by this, but the meaning that 99% of people take is clear enough.
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Have you got a statement directly from the Pope about this. Not a statement lifted from an edited mashed up document.
99% of which people ?

The Pope does not support homosexual marriages .
 
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