Not attending N.O.

[estesbob]

The chances of an abuse in a Tridentine Mass is slim. It’s a lot harder to change the words when you don’t speak the language fluently. There’s also not much variation in the actions. People would notice any changes straight away.

.

So since a priest doesn’t understand what he is saying abuses are harder to come by. Well that’s comforting

 

[Dempsey1919]

So since a priest doesn’t understand what he is saying abuses are harder to come by. Well that’s comforting

I never said that the Priest doesn’t know what he’s saying. I know what the Priest is saying but I don’t speak fluent Latin. I can also pray in Latin and understand what each individual word means. However, I couldn’t write a hundred word essay in Latin. Nor could I compose a prayer in Latin.

A Priest who celebrates the Tridentine Mass will know exactly what he is saying and can probably recite the words by heart. My Priest knows exactly what the Latin means. He’s not just reading words that he doesn’t understand.

I maintain that it’s harder to make up the words on the spot when you don’t speak fluent Latin. The Priest would find it harder to make up the words of the consecration in Latin. However, he will still be perfectly able to understand what he’s saying when he makes the proper consecration.

 

[BobP123]

So since a priest doesn’t understand what he is saying abuses are harder to come by. Well that’s comforting

Crack all the sarcasm you want, but it’s a whole lot easier to spot deviations from the TLM rubrics than the N.O.

If anyone considers any Novus Ordo to be reverent, it must be because they’ve been to a lot of bad ones and didn’t know any better. After attending different ones for 26 years, I think I should know. Reverence is only one of degree.

 

[estesbob]

Crack all the sarcasm you want, but it’s a whole lot easier to spot deviations from the TLM rubrics than the N.O.

If anyone considers any Novus Ordo to be reverent, it must be because they’ve been to a lot of bad ones and didn’t know any better. After attending different ones for 26 years, I think I should know. Reverence is only one of degree.

You can come by Parish 7 days a week and find masses more revererent than any TM you have ever been to.

 

[skatepixie]

Now, in the TLM/EF if they priest accidentally opens his fingers slightly when dealing with the key, is this abuse?

 

[JKirkLVNV]

My thoughts exactly. We should pray that this never happens. We should also be aware that this will be an extreme rarety.

When we talk of the abuses of the N.O we do not question the validity of the consecration. We complain about the irreverent way that the Mass is celebrated. This irreverence is extremely rare in the Tridentine Mass. In fact, it probably doesn’t exist in my opinion. I doubt we’ll ever see clown Tridentine Masses or see transvestite homosexual nuns receiving the Eucharist at a Tridentine Mass.

Most unfair. Neither of those things is inherent in the NO.

 

[Hellisreal]

Do whatever you wish.

Is it ok not to attend the Novus Ordo Missae to show support for the Tridentine Mass?

I still believe the NO is valid but I do not want to attend because I want to show my support and fidelity to the TLM; I choose to do this for the same reasons that FSSP priests don’t say the NO.

I feel that it is important to support the TLM because of the fact that traditional catholics have had to fight for it. Now that we have it again, I want to do all that I can to promote it.

I would attend the NO if I had no other options, but I will not attend as long as I have the option of the TLM.

 

[BobP123]

You can come by Parish 7 days a week and find masses more revererent than any TM you have ever been to.

I doubt it. The only reverent NO Mass I’ve been to was at 6:30am in Latin with Polish vernacular (readings and homily). Not a word of ICEL. Heaven.

But it still had a lot missing and I didn’t feel I fulfilled the Sunday obligation.

 

[BobP123]

Most unfair. Neither of those things is inherent in the NO.

For someone who is so dead set against attending the Traditional Latin Mass, I find it sad that you spend so many posts (and at such a high speed) on the Traditional board. I can’t even think of the right word to call it. What else can we call it except “bashing”? Too much time on your hands, perhaps? I find nothing in your posts to be constructive.

Be that as it may, the whole intent of the Novus Ordo was to disseminate the word of God into different cultures. If it’s celebrated “reverently,” it’s only because of the people who happen to be there. You can’t give the Novus Ordo itself credit for this. The Church already had a “reverent” Mass.

But as you may never find out, the TLM has (or had) its own culture. Big difference. Call it unfair if you wish, but no one is forcing you to go anywhere. On the other hand, I see a lot of people telling the trads they have no choice but to attend the closest Novus Ordo. Now this is what I’d consider unfair, not to mention most untruthful.

 

[BobP123]

Yes, I am proposing that an official decree issued by an Archbishop Member of the Supreme Tribunal of the Apostolic Signatura (the highest court in the Catholic Church, higher than the Roman Rota) carries more weight than a private letter (subsequently publicized) from a Monsignor in the Vatican to an individual person.

 

[BobP123]

Now, in the TLM/EF if they priest accidentally opens his fingers slightly when dealing with the key, is this abuse?

Not if that same key is used for the N.O. Mass.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

For someone who is so dead set against attending the Traditional Latin Mass, I find it sad that you spend so many posts (and at such a high speed) on the Traditional board. I can’t even think of the right word to call it. What else can we call it except “bashing”? Too much time on your hands, perhaps? I find nothing in your posts to be constructive.

Be that as it may, the whole intent of the Novus Ordo was to disseminate the word of God into different cultures. If it’s celebrated “reverently,” it’s only because of the people who happen to be there. You can’t give the Novus Ordo itself credit for this. The Church already had a “reverent” Mass.

But as you may never find out, the TLM has (or had) its own culture. Big difference. Call it unfair if you wish, but no one is forcing you to go anywhere. On the other hand, I see a lot of people telling the trads they have no choice but to attend the closest Novus Ordo. Now this is what I’d consider unfair, not to mention most untruthful.

Bob: The plain truth of the matter is this: Lots of misinformation is spread by “traditionalists” (and you’ve contributed to a lot of the misinformation). It has to be corrected. Lots of misinformation is also spread by liberals/progressivists/feminists…but they don’t post in ANY of the forums, let alone have their own.

The Holy Father has called for the peaceful coexistence of the two forms. But you and others simply cannot have that, can you?

And I can think of word when I contemplate you complaining about bashing: “ironic.”

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Bob: The plain truth of the matter is this: Lots of misinformation is spread by “traditionalists” (and you’ve contributed to a lot of the misinformation). It has to be corrected. Lots of misinformation is also spread by liberals/progressivists/feminists…but they don’t post in ANY of the forums, let alone have their own.

The Holy Father has called for the peaceful coexistence of the two forms. But you and others simply cannot have that, can you?

And I can think of word when I contemplate you complaining about bashing: “ironic.”

And by the way, I’ve never said a single hateful word about the Tridentine Mass. The vernacular translations show how sublime it is. I’d love to see it offered in the vernacular and I would attend it. So I haven’t bashed this venerable Mass at all.

 

[marchoi]

Crack all the sarcasm you want, but it’s a whole lot easier to spot deviations from the TLM rubrics than the N.O.

If anyone considers any Novus Ordo to be reverent, it must be because they’ve been to a lot of bad ones and didn’t know any better. After attending different ones for 26 years, I think I should know. Reverence is only one of degree.

That was waaaaay out of line, dude. I don’t think it’s fair for anyone to make a sweeping statement like, “No Novus Ordo mass is ever reverent” (which is practically what you said). Now, I’ve been to a few Tridentine Masses and I think they’re beautiful. But I think that the Novus Ordo Mass has something of its own to offer and you can’t just deny that.

That being said, Dempsey, I would say go attend the Tridentine if that’s the best way for you to participate in the Holy Sacrifice of Mass. But don’t go solely to “show your support for the TLM” or to make a statement for TLM/against NO. I think that would be missing the point of Mass.

 

[ThereCanBeOnly1]

For someone who is so dead set against attending the Traditional Latin Mass, I find it sad that you spend so many posts (and at such a high speed) on the Traditional board. I can’t even think of the right word to call it. What else can we call it except “bashing”? Too much time on your hands, perhaps? I find nothing in your posts to be constructive.

Agreed. It is sad to see that some are so grieved by the TLM and trying set others astray form the TL- Mass and towards the No-service. The amount of posts and the speed at which they are posted I cannot even fathom how it is she/he has time for mass. I thought the Traditional Latin Forum was for polite information exchange so that members can learn about the TLM, which is offered today and ever increasing around the world. The TLM cannot be hindered no matter how much the modern movement wants it to disappear. Perhaps some did not get the memo.

 

[Sure]

What are you confused about???

 

[latinmasslover]

Bob: The plain truth of the matter is this: Lots of misinformation is spread by “traditionalists” (and you’ve contributed to a lot of the misinformation). It has to be corrected. Lots of misinformation is also spread by liberals/progressivists/feminists…but they don’t post in ANY of the forums, let alone have their own.

The Holy Father has called for the peaceful coexistence of the two forms. But you and others simply cannot have that, can you?

And I can think of word when I contemplate you complaining about bashing: “ironic.”

What misinformation would that be?

We’re not happy with the NO being equated with the TLM because it is a Rite that is not fit for the Holy Sacrifice. The priest with his back to God, EOEMHO, temporary socializing with our neighbor right after the Lord is made present on the Holy Altar, altar girls, Communion in the hand, Communion standing, Communion under both Species… All of this is approved. Like we said, the holiness is taken out. And then there are the “illegal” abuses. You could say, “well, those are abuses?” Well, what’s being done about the priests who allow them, about the bishops who allow the priests, etc? Nothing. This is why we’re perturbed. The Pope, God love him, can say all he wants about the holiness of the NO, but what is he doing to stop the abuses?

What’s so ironic about Bob’s “bashing?” Why is so much credence given to the Protestant Reformers and their “NO” services, but none to those who prefer a Rite that is not only holy but even *appears *holy?

 

[Sure]

What misinformation would that be?

We’re not happy with the NO being equated with the TLM because it is a Rite that is not fit for the Holy Sacrifice. The priest with his back to God, EOEMHO, temporary socializing with our neighbor right after the Lord is made present on the Holy Altar, altar girls, Communion in the hand, Communion standing, Communion under both Species… All of this is approved. Like we said, the holiness is taken out. And then there are the “illegal” abuses. You could say, “well, those are abuses?” **Well, what’s being done about the priests who allow them, about the bishops who allow the priests, etc? Nothing. This is why we’re perturbed. The Pope, God love him, can say all he wants about the holiness of the NO, but what is he doing to stop the abuses? **
What’s so ironic about Bob’s “bashing?” Why is so much credence given to the Protestant Reformers and their “NO” services, but none to those who prefer a Rite that is not only holy but even *appears *holy?

What happened to these priests??? Most of the pastors who allowed all the irreverent abuses were educated in seminaries well before Vatican II. So, did the NO Mass just magically pervert great priests? Or were they a mess before that?

Just remember a liturgy doesn’t abuse itself, it has to be abused by a priest.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Agreed. It is sad to see that some are so grieved by the TLM and trying set others astray form the TL- Mass and towards the No-service. The amount of posts and the speed at which they are posted I cannot even fathom how it is she/he has time for mass. I thought the Traditional Latin Forum was for polite information exchange so that members can learn about the TLM, which is offered today and ever increasing around the world. The TLM cannot be hindered no matter how much the modern movement wants it to disappear. Perhaps some did not get the memo.

But, TCOB1, since you don’t engage in polite discourse yourself, I can again only think of the word “ironic.” Look at the thread about the “protestantization of the Mass.” AJV gave reasoned arguments over and over, he pointed out documents showing the development of the liturgy and how liturgies have common roots, etc., etc., and you simply made false accusations, not only about WHY there is similarities in the liturgies (no one argued that there wasn’t), but also against MLChance and against AJV (you clearly stated that he wasn’t a layman, saracastically suggested he was an expert on Luther, etc., etc). You’re the last person who should bring up polite discourse. And though NO one here is an enemey of the TLM, the true enemies of the TLM must take great pleasure and consolation that you put yourself forward as that venerable Mass’ defender. They must secretly rejoice that YOU are such an advocate, such a devotee. Why? Because with people like YOU promoting it, there’s no real danger to their position from the TLM.

 

[bear06]

Agreed. It is sad to see that some are so grieved by the TLM and trying set others astray form the TL- Mass and towards the No-service. The amount of posts and the speed at which they are posted I cannot even fathom how it is she/he has time for mass. I thought the Traditional Latin Forum was for polite information exchange so that members can learn about the TLM, which is offered today and ever increasing around the world. The TLM cannot be hindered no matter how much the modern movement wants it to disappear. Perhaps some did not get the memo.

This is a bunch of hoo-ha! Really, we start running out of arguments and we must start trashing the reputation of others?! JKirk doesn’t want to hinder the TLM nor is he grieved by it. He’s grieved by those who can’t love the TLM without hating the Novus Ordo. I, feel just about the same way as him and I’ve attended several TLM, I attend a parish with the TLM, fully support the TLM, hoped and longed for the MP and will attend the TLM again. Look down at your foot. There’s a hole in it.