not believing in the real presence Eucharist is a rejection of God

[PRmerger]

There are a lot of theists of various religions–and different groups of christians–who do not believe in transubstantiation. Not just atheists.
Are you suggesting these people do not believe in a god?

.

Not at all.

I am suggesting that you have no idea what transubstantiation is.

You’re a journalist, no? Aren’t you supposed to be a bit more informed about what it is you’re presenting as the position of the Other?

I feel as if an analogy is in order.

You (Daddy Girl) are an Young Earther.

I (PR) am a Catholic scientist who believes in evolution.

You say: “Evolution proclaims that hydrogen gas turned into people" and I reject that. That’s absurd! That’s why I’m a Young Earther.

I say: *Emmm…no. Evolution doesn’t say that. At all. If you want to reject evolution, ok. But why don’t you try to find out what evolution actually is, rather than professing what it is not, and then we can chat. *

What Evolution Is and What It Isn’t

 

[PRmerger]

From above source:

Many people who argue against evolution do so because they do not understand it. The straw-man caricatures of evolution commonly presented by creationists are indeed illogical, implausible and unscientific.

My version:

Many atheists who argue against transubstantiation do so because they do not understand it. The straw-man caricatures of transubstantiation commonly presented by atheists are indeed illogical, implausible and untheological.

 

[TK421]

Some catholics seen to believe that Not believing in the real presence in the catholic communion Eucharist

Is a rejection of god himself and a lack of spiritual decernment

What do you think ?

If you are trained to believe in this form of spiritual decernment ?

Is this a rejection of god?

It’s a rejection of a divine revelation (or a lack of knowledge for having never known it). Obviously, a person can not believe in the Real Presence but still believe in God, though it won’t have the same degree of intimacy. The Eucharist is also how we receive eternal life.

When Mary and Joseph were anxiously seeking for Jesus, they found him in his Father’s house. Catholics believe that it is the same today as it was then.

Spiritual discernment cannot lead to knowledge of the Eucharist. The Eucharist was made known through revelation by Jesus. It’s not something that would ever have been known through human reasoning; it needed to be revealed by Heaven. Spiritual discernment can lead to a strengthening of faith and better clarity, but it can’t replace revelation.

 

[mkoopman]

It would be quite a jarring site if parishes enforced what you say above, and just under half did not go up for communion.

What is it you want to say about God? As a popular myth the god fad is dying? Au contrare, more modern persons believe that they are god than at any previous time. That is how far the neanderthal has climbed from truth.

Seems you comprehend the faith even less well to expect a “militant church” of the type you describe. Even when public scandal is identified with certain public figures the clergy do not follow the Bishop’s lead in many cases. To accept the Eucharist in an unworthy state is to bring condemnation on oneself. It is an act of justice to refuse when this is clear evident, not a banal punishment. Those who go down in mortal sin will know punishment enough for rejecting God.

What is your point on this light approach to sacrilege? To prove the faithful follow suit after those clergy who should reflect a little harder and come to know a little better the vital key they hold?

 

[PJM]

Some catholics seen to believe that Not believing in the real presence in the catholic communion Eucharist

Is a rejection of god himself and a lack of spiritual decernment

What do you think ?

If you are trained to believe in this form of spiritual decernment ?

Is this a rejection of god?

AS ONE WHO FULLY SUPPORTS THIS POSITION BASED ON THE TRUTH, THE BIBLE ,AND SACRED TRADITION, FULLY SUPPORTED IN “FAITH” THROUGH THE MANY EUCHARISTIC MIRACLES …

A BETTER QUESTION IN MY OPINION, IS HOW CAN IT NOT BE DENIAL OF GOD, AS JESUS IS REALLY, TRULY AND SUBSTANTIALLY PRESENT AND JESUS IS GOD.

TELL ME FRIEND JUST HOW JESUS, OR THE GOD INSPIRED AUTHORS OF THE NT COULD HAVE BEEN MORE FORCEFUL, MORE SPECIFIC OR MORE CLEAR IN THE LANGUAGE THEY CHOOSE TO USE TO EXPLAIN THIS MIRACLE:shrug:

John.6: 47 -57
Truly, truly, I[GOD] say to you, he who believes has eternal life. II AM the bread of life.
** I am the living bread which came down from heaven**; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever;** and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh." ** The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

**So Jesus [GOD] said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; **
**he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. ** **[55] For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. [56] **He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. ** {WHICH IS PRECISELY WHAT DOES TAKE PLACE IN CATHOLIC HOLY COMMUNION} As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me.

AND HOW COULD SAINT PAUL HAVE WRITTEN AND TAUGHT THIS

1Cor.11: 23 - 30
For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, ** and when he [JESUS][had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood**. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me." For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes. **Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. ** Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.[MEANS HERE HAVE SELF CONDEMNED THEMSELVES TO ETERNAL HELL IF NOT REPENTED AND CONVERTED]

**Because Jesus IS GOD

Because Jesus is truly and really Present in person

Denial of the Real Presence IS DENIAL of God factually.**

This is a GOD desires, and as GOD accomplishes at every Catholic Mass. AMEN!

God Bless you

 

[Brendan_64]

There are a lot of theists of various religions–and different groups of christians–who do not believe in transubstantiation. Not just atheists.
Are you suggesting these people do not believe in a god?

.

They may well believe in God, but they have a flawed and imperfect view of God in that regard. Belief in transubstantiation is core to the Catholic faith.

In order to receive Communion on a Catholic church the person must believe that the are receiving the actual spiritual Body of Christ (as well as being Catholic, in a state of grace, and having fasted for 1 hour beforehand).

To receive while deliberately rejecting the doctrine of the real presence (as opposed to struggling with doubts while trying to overcome these doubts) is to commit sacrilege.

 

[Jestersage]

It’s best to remember that, in John 6, Jesus didn’t “clarify” again or call the 500 hoe left. Instead he asked teh 12 who remains: Will YOU also go away?

Answer him like Peter: “To whom shall we go? You alone have eternal life.”

 

[Jeanne_S]

I saw a survey from 2008 by the Center for Applied Research on the Apostolate (CARA) that said 43% of Catholics do not believe in transubstantiation.
It would be quite a jarring site if parishes enforced what you say above, and just under half did not go up for communion.

ncregister.com/daily-news/us-bishops-encourage-greater-devotion-to-christ-in-the-eucharist

A 2011 survey had other interesting, mixed results.
ncronline.org/news/catholics-america/knowledge-and-belief-about-real-presence

.

If half did not go up to receive e the Euchrist do to non belief in the Real Presence,that would be a good thing. Additionally I would think a refresher course in the Catechism of the Catholic Church would be in order as well

 

[Nicea325]

Some catholics seen to believe that Not believing in the real presence in the catholic communion Eucharist

Is a rejection of god himself and a lack of spiritual decernment

What do you think ?

If you are trained to believe in this form of spiritual decernment ?

Is this a rejection of god?

Many Christians, regardless of denomination, reject Hell as well or the Trinity. Would that be a rejection of God?

 

[PJM]

Many Christians, regardless of denomination, reject Hell as well or the Trinity. Would that be a rejection of God?

“Of GOD”,

Only in the very REAL sense that God is GODS WORDS

John.1 Verses 1 to 3
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] He was in the beginning with God;
[3] all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.

So the answer to your question is YES

GBY

 

[Jeanne_S]

It’s best to remember that, in John 6, Jesus didn’t “clarify” again or call the 500 hoe left. Instead he asked teh 12 who remains: Will YOU also go away?

Answer him like Peter: “To whom shall we go? You alone have eternal life.”

Amen!!

 

[Tuxedo_Mark]

and the Word was God.

Nitpick: the Greek in this case is properly translated as “and the Word was toward God” or “and the World was moving toward God”.

 

[Nicea325]

“Of GOD”,

Only in the very REAL sense that God is GODS WORDS

John.1 Verses 1 to 3
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] He was in the beginning with God;
[3] all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.

So the answer to your question is YES

GBY

 

[Rosebud77]

Many if not most people are on journeys. Please respect that rather than expecting all to have arrived… Faith and belief are not like switching an electric light on but a slow dawning often through clouds. A growing as from a bulb or root in the earth… A hidden development like a bird in an eggshell … fragile…Thank you

 

[PJM]

Many if not most people are on journeys. Please respect that rather than expecting all to have arrived… Faith and belief are not like switching an electric light on but a slow dawning often through clouds. A growing as from a bulb or root in the earth… A hidden development like a bird in an eggshell … fragile…Thank you

Sincere thanks for the reminder:thumbsup:

But

It is my opinion that the TRUTH of the Real Presence is NOT the least bit hidden. Denied YES" Hidden NO.

Hence the evidence I have presented and explained of John 6: 47-58 & 1 St Cor. 11:23-30 aided by other biblical evidence; FIVE different authors[including the above] of the bible and the early Catholic Churches biblically recorded acceptance of this reality seem to many to be sufficient proof; augmented by GOOGLING “Eucharistic Miracles”

God bless you, and thanks again for the reminder

 

[otjm]

I know a couple of Catholics who don’t believe in the real presence and they receive communion. A catholic friend of mine once told me that she doesn’t believe in the real presence and that it is just symbolic, pretty much what protestants believe. So, I am curious to see what others have to say. Should someone who does not believe in the real presence receive communion? Are they receiving unworthily?

Some people have an exceedingly difficult time understanding terms and concepts such as essence and existence, substance and form, and substance and accidents. and when the Eucharist is explained to them using those terms, one might as well be speaking to them in Swahili or a sub group of Arabic, as it is simply unintelligible to them. And if whoever catechized them simply laid that all out and then went on, they were left with a null in information.

Others have been very poorly catechized.

And some can reiterate it all, but simply cannot wrap their minds around anything which is not evident to their senses - and at times a good deal which should be evident to their senses.

Are they receiving unworthily? That normally goes to whether they are in a state of grace or not; their lack of understanding is not per se a moral issue. it may or may not be.

Should they be further catechized? Certainly, but not necessarily by you, unless you are very well trained.

It is not for either of us to determine if they are receiving unworthily; that is God’s place, and their confessor’s.

If this is weighing heavily on you, you could speak with your pastor, without naming names, and ask what you should do, if anything.

And then accept what the pastor says, and move on.

 

[otjm]

Nitpick: the Greek in this case is properly translated as “and the Word was toward God” or “and the World was moving toward God”.

When I took koine Greek, I don’t recall pros ton theon being translated as “moving toward”. The Jerusalem Bible says “was with God”, as does the NAB.

But then, what would they know about translating such…

 

[Rosebud77]

Some people have an exceedingly difficult time understanding terms and concepts such as essence and existence, substance and form, and substance and accidents. and when the Eucharist is explained to them using those terms, one might as well be speaking to them in Swahili or a sub group of Arabic, as it is simply unintelligible to them. And if whoever catechized them simply laid that all out and then went on, they were left with a null in information.

Others have been very poorly catechized.

And some can reiterate it all, but simply cannot wrap their minds around anything which is not evident to their senses - and at times a good deal which should be evident to their senses.

Are they receiving unworthily? That normally goes to whether they are in a state of grace or not; their lack of understanding is not per se a moral issue. it may or may not be.

Should they be further catechized? Certainly, but not necessarily by you, unless you are very well trained.

It is not for either of us to determine if they are receiving unworthily; that is God’s place, and their confessor’s.

If this is weighing heavily on you, you could speak with your pastor, without naming names, and ask what you should do, if anything.

And then accept what the pastor says, and move on.

One thing I was taught years ago about all these matters where we call the actions of others into question was, “Keep your eye on your own page”

Jesus says that too… His words about planks and specks?

IF someone asks you that is different. Then be gentle and thorough.

But test and judge only you.

 

[mkoopman]

When I took koine Greek, I don’t recall pros ton theon being translated as “moving toward”. The Jerusalem Bible says “was with God”, as does the NAB.

But then, what would they know about translating such…

It may speak well that there is this double effect of these words. Not in that it moves doubts “away from God” as is contrary to any literal sense. It speaks of both the nature of Christ and the restorative, redemptive effect His Body works in continuity with The Incarnate Word, Our Lord, Jesus.

 

[HelenRose]

I know a couple of Catholics who don’t believe in the real presence and they receive communion. A catholic friend of mine once told me that she doesn’t believe in the real presence and that it is just symbolic, pretty much what protestants believe. So, I am curious to see what others have to say. Should someone who does not believe in the real presence receive communion? Are they receiving unworthily?

If I didn’t believe in the real presence of God, I would be honest about it and starting going to a Protestant Church.

By going forward to accept the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ. a person is making a statement that he or she believes it. They would be misrepresenting themselves as being something they are not.