Not By Scripture Alone

[Mike_Brick]

Then we have to be careful when reading Paul’s books but nowhere does Scripture say that only church leaders can interpret them for us. The Holy Spirit is given to every believer and every believer is told to study to show HIMSELF approved, a workman rightly dividing the Scriptures.

You are right, if God said it, that’s final, the underlined words above that is. But He did not say study only the written scriptures, which as most of us know weren’t even available to the average believer until the invention of the printing press in the mid 1,400s or thereabouts. Even then printed Bibles were still very expensive and most folks couldn’t afford to have their own. That’s the whole point of this thread, people became faith-filled Christians and followed Jesus for way more than a thousand years before the issue of this thread could have even been brought up. That’s the whole point, the faith flourished quite well before the access to the written scriptures even though the believers didn’t “read their Bibles”. Today with access to Bibles everywhere, (but in public schools), some are taught individual interpretation is all that matters, hence we now have about 40K Christian denominations as a result.

As a life long protestant I’m sure you heard that in its early history and even to the middle ages the Catholic Church wouldn’t let their members read the Bible, with an implication that everyone else was reading their’s and we weren’t allowed access. Bibles weren’t even available to most people then, (way too expensive and too few hand copies available), and they usually weren’t in a language the local folks could even understand, (Latin or in some cases Greek)! The various local churches, church leaders and those who owned hand printed Bibles weren’t lending out their most prized possessions very much. But they were used to teach Catholics at every Mass, (Worship service) and othertimes as well. We include readings from both Testaments, and most of the prayers of the Mass are directly from the written scriptures.

Please don’t misunderstand us, we value scripture greatly and it is used as a never failing standard for our beliefs, but as John said in the last verse of his gospel, not everything Jesus taught the Apostles was written there. Again read the Early Church Fathers for more info on this.

Please continue your Journey to Truth, and don’t be too upset by any potholes you encounter along the way, just keep moving towards Him.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

As an ex-Evangelical I sense that you have a deep misunderstanding on what the Catholic Church actually teaches. I recommend reading Dave Armstrong’s: “A Biblical Defense of Catholicism”

This is what bothers me. I refer to some of the things Catholics have said on here, I say I reject them, and then I get told I don’t understand what Catholics believe. Either you believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary or you don’t. Some say you do, I say I reject that. It’s not too hard to understand what they teach, at least in this area. She was either always a virgin or she wasn’t.

Thank you for the recommendation though, I do appreciate that and hope I can find it.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Psst…Dr. Phil. Luke wrote the book of Luke.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Hi Mike, I like discussing things with you already.

I hear you. I understand that there wern’t many Bibles available back in those days and they weren’t in the language of the people in many places. This is one reason Luther wanted to translate the Bible. He wanted the people to have it in their own language.

I actually did hear about how the CC didn’t want their members to read the Bible on their own. I was lead to believe that the above reasons were part of it but also that they just didn’t want the people to really find out that they were being taught “falsehoods” (I’ll use indulgences for an example as it’s less controversial than some other things).

As for the individual interpretation today, I do agree with you guys to an extent. Though there should be an authority in the church for the purpose of checks and balances to prevent false teaching, I believe that we can interpret Scripture ourselves provided we trust the Holy Spirit.

Thank you for the good wishes.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I know who the shepherd is too. It’s Jesus; not the pope.

Perhaps you want to read more closely:

When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?”
“Yes, Lord,” he said, “you know that I love you.”
Jesus said, “Feed my lambs.”
Again Jesus said, “Simon son of John, do you truly love me?”
He answered, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.”
Jesus said, “Take care of my sheep.”
The third time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?”
Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, “Do you love me?” He said, “Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Feed my sheep. I tell you the truth, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go.” Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God. Then he said to him, “Follow me!” (John 21:15-19)

Who is the Good Shepherd? Jesus.

Who was about to ascend to heaven? Jesus.

Did Jesus leave his flock uncared for? No.

Who did he annoint as the caretaker of the sheep? Peter.

Who takes care of sheep? A shepherd.

“Feed my lambs. Take care of my sheep. Feed my sheep.”

Peter is the shepherd named by Jesus. He also hold the keys given by Jesus.

The “perpetual virginity of Mary”, purgatory as a necessary place for “cleansing from sin” (when Jesus did it all), etc. are things I just cannot accept. Maybe it doesn’t even matter, but the fact that you guys make it of vital importance to believe it makes me actively and passionately reject it.

Tell me, if we were to never mention these doctrines again would you be more likely to embrace them? :nope:How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” (Romans 10:14-15)

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Tell me, if we were to never mention these doctrines again would you be more likely to embrace them?
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” (Romans 10:14-15)

No, I won’t accept that blasphemy. Sorry.

Also, how can you use that Scripture passage which talks about the gospel to further your “justification” for preaching false doctrine? As Philly likes to say, that was pride that made you do that.

Also, Peter may have been the shepherd. The Pope isn’t. Sorry.

 

[Church_Militant]

However, OTHER teachings, such as some of the Mary teachings are what I was getting at.

Got a suggestion for you.
http://www.amm.org/chss/images/chss9.gif

CHRIST’S MOTHER AND OURS (LINK)

This course explains what the Bible says about Mary, what the Church teaches, Mary’s apparitions, how Mary relates to us in our daily lives, prayer and liturgy relating to Mary, the meaning of the Rosary, Marian sacramentals, and more. It will help you understand Catholic devotion to Mary and explain it to others.Oh and BTW…it’s FREE!
Pax tecum,

 

[Randy_Carson]

**Tell me, if we were to never mention these doctrines again would you be more likely to embrace them? **
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” (Romans 10:14-15)

No, I won’t accept that blasphemy. Sorry.

Also, how can you use that Scripture passage which talks about the gospel to further your “justification” for preaching false doctrine? As Philly likes to say, that was pride that made you do that.

Also, Peter may have been the shepherd. The Pope isn’t. Sorry.

Two points:

1. This scripture illustrates a principle; unless someone tells you the truth, you will never hear it. Do not accuse me of blasphemy.
2. Yes, Peter was the shepherd. This is a step in the right direction. Now, Jesus left Peter in charge just before the ascension…who took responsibility after Peter’s martyrdom? And the person after that?

Peter…Linus…Cletus…Clement…Paul VI, John Paul I, John Paul II, Benedict XVI.

We know every pope in order of their succession for almost 2,000 years. Truly remarkable if you think about it.

No other human institution even comes close…Jesus really meant it when he told the Apostles, “I will be with you always, until the end of the age.”

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Again, I am not a follower of the names above. I am a follower of Jesus Christ.

The influences on my life are not men 500 years ago. They are the leaders and elders of the church I attend. You might be surprised to learn that when they refer to the Catholic church at all the references are positive. In general we don’t fret about other denominations. We have a community, county, and world to win for Jesus Christ.

Given what you said above, how do you explain the fact in your signature you identify yourself as:
“Vermont Wesleyan Evangelical”

 

[MariaG]

No, I won’t accept that blasphemy. Sorry.

And what do you say if you were told (maybe you already were?) that the reformers, even Calvin I believe?, believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary, and would in fact, call you the blasphermer for suggesting that she was not?

God Bless,
Maria

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Got a suggestion for you.
http://www.amm.org/chss/images/chss9.gif
Oh and BTW…it’s FREE!
Pax tecum,

Thank you.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

And what do you say if you were told (maybe you already were?) that the reformers, even Calvin I believe?, believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary, and would in fact, call you the blasphermer for suggesting that she was not?

God Bless,
Maria

Since Scripture is the highest authority and not Luther or Calvin or the pope, I would say Calvin was wrong. I never clamed to believe everything Calvin said. "Let God be true and every man a liar. I’m not suggesting Mary was not a perpetual virgin. I’m stating it as a fact.

God bless you too.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Two points:

1. This scripture illustrates a principle; unless someone tells you the truth, you will never hear it.

Ok.

Do not accuse me of blasphemy.

Ditto. Now…what should I do when you assert something that is “not doctrinally correct” but try to force me to accept it?

1. Yes, Peter was the shepherd. This is a step in the right direction. Now, Jesus left Peter in charge just before the ascension…who took responsibility after Peter’s martyrdom? And the person after that?

Church leaders. But they had no special tie to Peter. There is no apostolic succession. And actually, we are all supposed to feed Jesus’ sheep.

Peter…Linus…Cletus…Clement…Paul VI, John Paul I, John Paul II, Benedict XVI.

We know every pope in order of their succession for almost 2,000 years. Truly remarkable if you think about it.

And every one of them was a sinful human being who never said one thing “ex cathedra” (though they thought they did; such pride).

No other human institution even comes close…Jesus really meant it when he told the Apostles, “I will be with you always, until the end of the age.”

He meant He would be with all of us until the end of the age. He is as much with me as He is with the pope. And don’t you think if Jesus is with the leaders of the Catholic church alone that they would not teach things contradictory to His Word?

 

[MariaG]

Since Scripture is the highest authority and not Luther or Calvin or the pope, I would say Calvin was wrong. I never clamed to believe everything Calvin said. "Let God be true and every man a liar. I’m not suggesting Mary was not a perpetual virgin. I’m stating it as a fact.

God bless you too.

The virginity of Mary should be it’s own thread specifically to Mary, so I won’t go any fartherd down that road in specifics, but I would have you think on this thought.

You are following the interpretation of scripture of men whom you disagree with you on what the interpretation of scripture is. How do you choose and know when they were right and when they were wrong?

Also you say that scripture is the highest authority. Where in scripture does it claim this?

In scripture there is much about if there are disagreements between you and your brother, take it to the Church, not scripture.

More scripture that tells us that some scripture can be hard to understand. Other scripture that warns us of those who will come along with false teachings, perverting scripture.

Lots and lots of scripture warning us and talking about the dangers of false teachers. Why? If scripture is the final authority and needs no explanation except the leading of the Holy Spirit, why all the warnings?

But most important for your belief, where in scripture does scripture claim to be the highest authority needing no help to interpret it?

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

This is what bothers me. I refer to some of the things Catholics have said on here, I say I reject them, and then I get told I don’t understand what Catholics believe. Either you believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary or you don’t. Some say you do, I say I reject that. It’s not too hard to understand what they teach, at least in this area. She was either always a virgin or she wasn’t.

Thank you for the recommendation though, I do appreciate that and hope I can find it.

I sincerely apologize if I have offended you, as that was most certainly not my intention.

The book does an excellent job of discussing the Marian doctrines though, so you might find it helpful as I did.

May God Our Father bless you richly!

 

[hoosierdaddy]

The virginity of Mary should be it’s own thread specifically to Mary, so I won’t go any fartherd down that road in specifics, but I would have you think on this thought.

I’m getting rather tired of this. You guys are free to mention something to make a point but whenever I do you all spout off how I should start a whole other thread. You know what that smells like? Fear.

You are following the interpretation of scripture of men whom you disagree with you on what the interpretation of scripture is. How do you choose and know when they were right and when they were wrong?

The Holy Spirit and the Word of God. The way we’re supposed to know.

Also you say that scripture is the highest authority. Where in scripture does it claim this?

All throughout it. You Catholics seem to think only you can know it so you go find it. Hint: you will…if you’re not fearful.

In scripture there is much about if there are disagreements between you and your brother, take it to the Church, not scripture.

Because you can’t take a disagreement between two people to a book. Would you take a disagreement between two people to gynecologist? However, when you take that disagreement to the church they are supposed to work it out based on Scripture.

More scripture that tells us that some scripture can be hard to understand. Other scripture that warns us of those who will come along with false teachings, perverting scripture.

So you work hard and take the time to study it. You pray and eventually you will understand. That’s why you have to know Scripture to avoid false teachings. You guys can’t do that because you’re bullied into believing everything your leaders tell you, when Scripture tells you to test what you’re taught by searching the Scriptures. Round and round we go…will anyone get it…I doubt it.

Lots and lots of scripture warning us and talking about the dangers of false teachers. Why? If scripture is the final authority and needs no explanation except the leading of the Holy Spirit, why all the warnings?

**See above. Also, if you have to believe every thing your leaders tell you, why read the Bible? **

But most important for your belief, where in scripture does scripture claim to be the highest authority needing no help to interpret it?

Again, all throughout it. If you’re not fearful of your church leaders, you’ll find it.

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

 

[hoosierdaddy]

I sincerely apologize if I have offended you, as that was most certainly not my intention.

The book does an excellent job of discussing the Marian doctrines though, so you might find it helpful as I did.

May God Our Father bless you richly!

No problem. I don’t believe you did it purposely at all. I was just saying what I had a problem with.

Friend, do Catholics read as many books about Jesus as they do about Mary? I think I’ll check that book out though. Thanks and God bless you too.

 

[MariaG]

Hi Hoosier,

Did you know that when you respond to a person, all inside the quote, that a person then cannot quote you? If you wish to respond to each point, as most people do, you have to quote them, copy the points you don’t want (Ctrl C), cut those points out, paste the points back outside of the first quote (Ctrl V), quote it again and respond. I don’t know if that was very clear, my fault. But as it is now, I have to go back and copy and paste your whole post, since it will not quote anything inside the quote box, which all of your response was.

I will have to do it when I get back, but I post this hoping to help the communcations. It is a great site once one understands the features, slightly confusing until then though.

God bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

Originally Posted by MariaG forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
The virginity of Mary should be it’s own thread specifically to Mary, so I won’t go any fartherd down that road in specifics, but I would have you think on this thought.

Originally posted by hoosierdaddy
I’m getting rather tired of this. You guys are free to mention something to make a point but whenever I do you all spout off how I should start a whole other thread. You know what that smells like? Fear.

Respectfully, there is a difference between mentioning something in passing, and asking for proof of that something.

This thread is about scripture alone. Not about proving the perpetual virginity even if it were to be asked to be done by scripture alone. If you wish to get into specific Scripture concerning the proof or lack of proof from your point of view concerning the perpetual virginity of Mary, that is a new thread.

Mentioning in passing though that you disagree with those who formulated the doctrine of Scripture alone on at least on point is to the point. You say that you are led by the Holy Spirit, yet so did those learned men who disagree with the Catholic Church yet also disagree with you yet all of you claim scripture alone.

Respectfully, if the forum rules here seem confusing to you, this forum may not be a good fit for you. I would encourage you to stay and see if the One topic per thread gets anymore clear to you, but if you continue to view it as something irrational like fear instead of logically confining topics to one subject, you will probably be happier elsewhere if you are unable to understand what comprises one topic.

Originally Posted by MariaG forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
You are following the interpretation of scripture of men whom you disagree with you on what the interpretation of scripture is. How do you choose and know when they were right and when they were wrong?

Originally posted by hoosierdaddy
The Holy Spirit and the Word of God. The way we’re supposed to know.

The Catholic Church claims the Holy Spirit as do the Reformers whom you disagree with. The Holy Spirit cannot be leading us all to contradictory answers so who is right?

Originally Posted by MariaG forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
Also you say that scripture is the highest authority. Where in scripture does it claim this?

Originally posted by hoosierdaddy
All throughout it. You Catholics seem to think only you can know it so you go find it. Hint: you will…if you’re not fearful.

And specifically where would that be?

There IS scripture that tells us to:

1 Cor 11:2 - hold fast to traditions I handed on to you
2 Thess 2:15 - hold fast to traditions, whether oral or by letter
2 Thess 3:6 - shun those acting not according to tradition
2Tim2:2 - what you heard entrust to faithful men
2Pet 3:15-16 - Paul’s letters can be difficult to grasp & interpret
1Tim 3:15 - Church called “pillar and foundation of truth”
Jn 16:13 - guided by Holy Spirit into all truth
Jn 14:26 - Holy Spirit to teach & remind them of everything

Scripture that tells us to look to the Church. Scripture does not interpret itself and the Church, the pillar and foundation of truth has been entrusted with the authority to interpret God’s inspired word.

con.

 

[MariaG]

Originally Posted by MariaG forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
In scripture there is much about if there are disagreements between you and your brother, take it to the Church, not scripture.

Originally posted by hoosierdaddy
Because you can’t take a disagreement between two people to a book. Would you take a disagreement between two people to gynecologist? However, when you take that disagreement to the church they are supposed to work it out based on Scripture.

Exactly. The Church. So it is the Church who has the authority to interpret scripture. Scripture tells us to entrust what you have learned to faithful men. These men, a living breathing Church are guided by the Holy Spirit as a whole. Scripture in and of itself cannot interpret itself.

It may surprise you to know that the Catholic Church does in fact claim that no dogma in the Catholic Church contradicts scripture. Many here would be glad to get into specifics in a thread devoted to each topic of teachings that you feel contradict scripture.

Originally Posted by MariaG forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
More scripture that tells us that some scripture can be hard to understand. Other scripture that warns us of those who will come along with false teachings, perverting scripture.

Originally posted by hoosierdaddy
So you work hard and take the time to study it. You pray and eventually you will understand. That’s why you have to know Scripture to avoid false teachings. You guys can’t do that because you’re bullied into believing everything your leaders tell you, when Scripture tells you to test what you’re taught by searching the Scriptures. Round and round we go…will anyone get it…I doubt it.

Since you are new here, you may not realize that I and many others here actually are converts or reverts to the Catholic Church. We did not believe everything our leaders told us to because we were not Catholic or had left the Catholic Church.

It WAS through the study of Scripture and the leading of the Holy Spirit that we came to the Catholic Church in the first place.

I find it rather ironic that I came to the Catholic Church through scripture alone and the leading of the Holy Spirit, yet now that the truth has been revealed I can see in Scripture as well as history the truth of the teachings of the Catholic church.

So that particular argument may work on cradle Catholics who never left but many here are reverts or converts, me being one of them.

Originally Posted by MariaG forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
Lots and lots of scripture warning us and talking about the dangers of false teachers. Why? If scripture is the final authority and needs no explanation except the leading of the Holy Spirit, why all the warnings?

Originally posted by hoosierdaddy
**See above. Also, if you have to believe every thing your leaders tell you, why read the Bible? **

See above. I read the bible and came to the CAtholic Church:thumbsup:

Originally Posted by MariaG forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
But most important for your belief, where in scripture does scripture claim to be the highest authority needing no help to interpret it?

Originally posted by hoosierdaddy
Again, all throughout it. If you’re not fearful of your church leaders, you’ll find it.

You’ll need to be specific because I had no “leaders” when I read the bible and saw the truth of the teachings of the Catholic Church.

The fear seems to be on your part. What do you tell those who are looking for the truth of Christ but disagree with you on some point. Tell them to read their bible and they’ll see or give them specific scripture to show them the error of their ways.

All scripture is valuable, why do you not post scripture for reproof instead of being so vague?

God Bless and keep you safe,
Maria