Not By Scripture Alone

[Mike_Brick]

Hoosierdaddy: Two points: You are still hung-up on you steadfast belief in the “infallibility of the individual Bible reader guided by the HS”. It is just exactly that belief which is a part of the false notion of Sola Scriptura that has led us directly into and continues to feed huge division among Christian Churches today. I won’t bore you by repeating the numbers of denominations worldwide, but in the US alone it is already over 4,000 not counting the non-denominationls and the Mega Churches too. But you press on none the less!

I would also like to point out your repeated mistaken notion about the relationship of Catholic believers and their leaders. See below especially your comments which I have underlined:

Originally Posted by MariaG: Also you say that scripture is the highest authority. Where in scripture does it claim this?

You Replied: All throughout it. You Catholics seem to think only you can know it so you go find it. Hint: you will…if you’re not fearful.

Originally Posted by MariaG: In scripture there is much about if there are disagreements between you and your brother, take it to the Church, not scripture.

You Replied: So you work hard and take the time to study it. You pray and eventually you will understand. That’s why you have to know Scripture to avoid false teachings. You guys can’t do that because you’re bullied into believing everything your leaders tell you, when Scripture tells you to test what you’re taught by searching the Scriptures. Round and round we go…will anyone get it…I doubt it.

Originally Posted by MariaG: Lots and lots of scripture warning us and talking about the dangers of false teachers. Why? If scripture is the final authority and needs no explanation except the leading of the Holy Spirit, why all the warnings?

You Replied: See above. Also, if you have to believe every thing your leaders tell you, why read the Bible?

Originally Posted by MariaG: But most important for your belief, where in scripture does scripture claim to be the highest authority needing no help to interpret it?

You Replied: Again, all throughout it. If you’re not fearful of your church leaders, you’ll find it.

My Brother, ours is not a faith of fear of Church Leaders nor is it a faith of perfect “knowledge” either, we have faith and faith does not come from “Bullying” as you so eloquently put it. I mean you no personal disrespect but your continuing use of the “got’ya phrases” you learned from your brethern in Protestant Land is showing us either continued ignorance, immaturity or both.

 

[Randy_Carson]

1. Yes, Peter was the shepherd. This is a step in the right direction. Now, Jesus left Peter in charge just before the ascension…who took responsibility after Peter’s martyrdom? And the person after that?

Church leaders. But they had no special tie to Peter. There is no apostolic succession. And actually, we are all supposed to feed Jesus’ sheep.

No special tie to Peter, and no apostolic succession? Hoosier, you are truly ignorant of the history of Christianity.

Peter…Linus…Cletus…Clement…Paul VI, John Paul I, John Paul II, Benedict XVI.

We know every pope in order of their succession for almost 2,000 years. Truly remarkable if you think about it.

And every one of them was a sinful human being who never said one thing “ex cathedra” (though they thought they did; such pride).

They were sinners, true enough. But some of them have made infallible pronouncements concerning the Christian faith just the same. It’s amazing what God has done through such men. But tell me, what is the difference between impeccability and infallibility?

No other human institution even comes close…Jesus really meant it when he told the Apostles, “I will be with you always, until the end of the age.”

He meant He would be with all of us until the end of the age. He is as much with me as He is with the pope. And don’t you think if Jesus is with the leaders of the Catholic church alone that they would not teach things contradictory to His Word?

This thread is about the false teaching of sola scriptura. Can you show me a single verse from the bible that teaches that doctrine? If not, then it is actually Protestantism that teaches things contradictory to His Word.

As for your allegation that a Pope has taught a false doctrine, start a thread. We’ll be there…with answers.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Hi Hoosier,

Did you know that when you respond to a person, all inside the quote, that a person then cannot quote you? If you wish to respond to each point, as most people do, you have to quote them, copy the points you don’t want (Ctrl C), cut those points out, paste the points back outside of the first quote (Ctrl V), quote it again and respond. I don’t know if that was very clear, my fault. But as it is now, I have to go back and copy and paste your whole post, since it will not quote anything inside the quote box, which all of your response was.

I will have to do it when I get back, but I post this hoping to help the communcations. It is a great site once one understands the features, slightly confusing until then though.

God bless,
Maria

No, I did not know. I’m sorry. However, the mocking continued in the following posts so I am not going to waste my time. You guys don’t want to have a discussion with me. You want to mock me (by the way, I have some intelligence so I don’t know why you had to subtly imply that I didn’t), and call me a heretic. Have at it.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

**“Always be prepared to give The Catholic Answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have.” 1 Peter 3:15 **

Adding to God’s Word now? And “I’m” the heretic…

 

[MariaG]

No, I did not know. I’m sorry. However, the mocking continued in the following posts so I am not going to waste my time. You guys don’t want to have a discussion with me. You want to mock me (by the way, I have some intelligence so I don’t know why you had to subtly imply that I didn’t), and call me a heretic. Have at it.

Respectfully, where have I referred to you as a heretic or mocked you in any way?

I will assume the best and assume that since you are non-Catholic, you are just feeling outnumbered and will realize that I never was anything but cordial and helpful with you, trying to help you learn some of the many features here on these forums that can make communication easier once learned. As others helped me, I tried to help you understand the sometimes complicated (yet useful) features.

And any answer to my post #187 and 186? Again, specific scripture, would be useful.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[mikeledes]

**“Always be prepared to give The Catholic Answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have.” 1 Peter 3:15 **

Adding to God’s Word now? And “I’m” the heretic…

That is obviously not meant to be taken seriously. I do not like the tone of this thread. We should all refrain from name-calling.

God Bless,
michael

 

[Randy_Carson]

**“Always be prepared to give The Catholic Answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have.” 1 Peter 3:15 **

Adding to God’s Word now? And “I’m” the heretic…

The Catholic Answer is the name of a magazine produced by the folks who sponsor this website.

It’s a play on words, and somewhat amusing to those who are not so humorless.

 

[mozart-250]

Given what you said above, how do you explain the fact in your signature you identify yourself as:
“Vermont Wesleyan Evangelical”

I actually do that for your sake so those of you that are theologically astute might gain some insight as to where I am coming from. The actual church that I attend is not Methodist, and I don’t consider myself tied particularly to one denomination.

For example, Wesley rejected the doctrine of eternal security. Since that tends to be a “hot topic” that might be of use to some of you.

 

[Randy_Carson]

No, I did not know. I’m sorry. However, the mocking continued in the following posts so I am not going to waste my time. You guys don’t want to have a discussion with me. You want to mock me (by the way, I have some intelligence so I don’t know why you had to subtly imply that I didn’t), and call me a heretic. Have at it.

Hoosier-

I have followed you from thread to thread, and your tone has grown increasingly strident as your one-liners have been refuted and your pet proof-texts explained in the light of accurate theology. Your ignorance of history, theology and the Word of God has let you down. This is not an attack but an assessment.

However, you are accusing us of attacking you personally, and I can understand the frustration that causes you to feel that way. Protestantism is incomplete, insufficient, incoherent and ultimately indefensible. You’re simply backing the wrong horse. But we welcome you to learn and join us.

Pick up your bible in one hand and a copy of the Catechism in the other and begin to read both paying close attention.

You’ll discover that not only does the Catholic Church NOT teach all of the things you’ve been claiming but that Her teaching makes a lot of sense. It should because she is, after all, the Bride of Christ.

 

[mozart-250]

I tend to think you are a follower of Jesus Christ as interpreted by the leaders of your local community just referenced or by yourself. Since neither they nor you are infallible, this is iffy.

Why do you need infallibility to be a follower of Jesus Christ.

We are all influenced by the communities of faith we find ourselves in. I do not deny that.

Once saved always saved? Or is there an aspect of process to salvation?

Actually I know I am saved today and am trusting Christ for the future.

I think that was the point of my original post. You can’t prove sola scriptura from the Bible itself. If you have accepted a doctrine that is so foundational to your theology from a source outside the Bible, then the doctrine itself is refuted. Either that, or you have to question whether that outside source itself is reliable. I’m sure you’d be quick acknowledge that your community is NOT infallible, so I hope you’d be careful enough to consider that the teaching of sola scriptura itself could very well be one of the issues that they have been most visibly fallible about.

This thread is not about that, and I have made no attempts to prove either. I have asked non-Catholics to prove me wrong on the assertion that the Bible does not teach sola scriptura. I’m not sure anyone has even tried in this thread.

Actually, I think you are correct that it can not be proved. But then again it can not be disproved. So the end result is that both Catholics and Protestants have different claims of faith sources, neither of which can be proved or disproved.

Actually in 10 years in my church, I have not heard the term “Sola Scriptura” once. Neither have I heard a message “Why the Bible teaches the Bible is the sole infallible rule of faith”. We are “Sola Scriptura” by default, meaning we have not accepted any of the claims of equivalency out there.

I understand the resistance…no one likes discovering that they have not been given the whole story. But your Protestant forefathers abandoned some aspects of the true faith, and you have not been told of this. For example, do you believe firmly in the Perpetual Virginity of Mary? Why or why not? I’m asking for a reason, so I will look for your response.

Of course the competing claim is that the Protestant forefathers restored the faith to the apostolic roots.

But then again perhaps both of these claims are oversimplifications and overreaching. What if Catholicism did drift from the apostolic roots, but at the same time the reformers overreached in their zeal to restore the faith. Then we would all be wrong to some extent.

Concerning the Perpetual Virginity of Mary.

• I think the most straightforeward reading of Scripture would read this is not true. But at least I understand that at least argument can be made from Scripture the other way. That is more than the assumption of Mary.
• I have not seen enough evidence to be convinced this is true apostolic tradition. The doctrine seems to come from the Infancy Gospel of James which from what I have read is apocryphal.
• It certainly does not bother me that some believe the other way on this, and who knows, I could be wrong here. What troubles me more is the status of this doctrine (“De Fide”) than the veracity of it. Here the RC denomination demands I must believe a doctrine that I just can not confirm from Scripture or be convinced it is apostolic.

Polemical? Was I polemical back in post #103 when I encouraged you to read the Fathers and ask questions? I thought I was and have been very courteous since you strike me as someone who is at least listening and considering the right questions (unlike so many here). Or is it only polemical when I say something that you don’t want to hear?

Actually the “You” was a generic you and not addressed to you personally. I apologize if I left the other impression. It was more a response to the term “satanic counterfeit” that one post used and “heretic” that a second used in this thread.

Both Catholics and Protestants can slip into polemics when their cases are weak (see CARM).

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Respectfully, where have I referred to you as a heretic or mocked you in any way?

I will assume the best and assume that since you are non-Catholic, you are just feeling outnumbered and will realize that I never was anything but cordial and helpful with you, trying to help you learn some of the many features here on these forums that can make communication easier once learned. As others helped me, I tried to help you understand the sometimes complicated (yet useful) features.

And any answer to my post #187 and 186? Again, specific scripture, would be useful.

God Bless,
Maria

You never called me a heretic. Though in order to be a Catholic you have to agree with the Church and apparently, they think I’m a heretic.

Also, your tone was mocking. You implied that I don’t have a brain. If people are going to complain about my tone, I will do the same. Now, what were your questions?

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Hoosier-

I have followed you from thread to thread, and your tone has grown increasingly strident as your one-liners have been refuted and your pet proof-texts explained in the light of accurate theology. Your ignorance of history, theology and the Word of God has let you down. This is not an attack but an assessment.

Well, I don’t think anything I’ve said has been refuted. I’m insulted that you would accuse me of being ignorant about history, theology and the Word of God when it’s just not the case. My tone has increased in direct proportion to the tones that people have taken with me. I don’t like being called a heretic when it’s not true, especially after I explained my belief which isn’t heretical. Now, if that’s tolerated for you guys to do it, I may just have to start doing it back.

However, you are accusing us of attacking you personally, and I can understand the frustration that causes you to feel that way. Protestantism is incomplete, insufficient, incoherent and ultimately indefensible. You’re simply backing the wrong horse. But we welcome you to learn and join us.

And my accusation is spot on. So, who says your evaluation of Protestantism is accurate? Thank you for the welcome though.

Pick up your bible in one hand and a copy of the Catechism in the other and begin to read both paying close attention.

And then when I come back here and tell you where they’re way off?

You’ll discover that not only does the Catholic Church NOT teach all of the things you’ve been claiming but that Her teaching makes a lot of sense. It should because she is, after all, the Bride of Christ.

Actually, I used to have a certain belief I thought that Catholics had about purgatory. My fiancee told me that it was not what they believed. Yet I come on here only to find out that I was right on what they believed. The Catholic Church is not the Bride of Christ. The Christian Church is the Bride of Christ. Otherwise you are subtly saying that I am not a Christian and you don’t want to do that.

 

[MariaG]

You never called me a heretic. Though in order to be a Catholic you have to agree with the Church and apparently, they think I’m a heretic.

Also, your tone was mocking. You implied that I don’t have a brain. If people are going to complain about my tone, I will do the same. Now, what were your questions?

My tone in which post was mocking?

The questions were in post #186 and 187.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

I actually do that for your sake so those of you that are theologically astute might gain some insight as to where I am coming from. The actual church that I attend is not Methodist, and I don’t consider myself tied particularly to one denomination.

For example, Wesley rejected the doctrine of eternal security. Since that tends to be a “hot topic” that might be of use to some of you.

Im not sure what to say here…if it is for MY sake, yet you dont go to a Methodist church nor are “tied to one denomination” what am I to conclude other than you pick and chose what you as an individual personally feel constitutes “correct” doctrine…

And just who are people like Wesely at this point? Were they just smart Christians who got it “almost right” but not quite right, while all along you were always a “little more right” than they were?

At the end of the day if we have a dispute over any given doctrine and we pull out the Bible and show our “proof texts” who is right me or you? Who decides which of us has it right? Certainly Jesus didnt leave Christians in such a conundrum of not knowing who’s interpretation is correct.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

My tone in which post was mocking?

The questions were in post #186 and 187.

When you implied I didn’t have a brain.

Ask the questions. I’m not going to go looking for them.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Be merciful to those who doubt;

Would that the shining light of Catholicism that called me a heretic today had obeyed this…

 

[JoeyWarren]

You never called me a heretic. Though in order to be a Catholic you have to agree with the Church and apparently, they think I’m a heretic.

Does your current Church think Catholics are Heretics? And if so, why?

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Does your current Church think Catholics are Heretics? And if so, why?

Not quite. They believe they are badly misinformed. We are told we should love Catholics and share the truth with them. If I can find some links to sermons from my church you are welcome to check them out.

 

[mozart-250]

Im not sure what to say here…if it is for MY sake, yet you dont go to a Methodist church nor are “tied to one denomination” what am I to conclude other than you pick and chose what you as an individual personally feel constitutes “correct” doctrine…

And just who are people like Wesely at this point? Were they just smart Christians who got it “almost right” but not quite right, while all along you were always a “little more right” than they were?

Umm…this is really confusing…and therefore I don’t know how to respond to it.

By the statement “tied to one denomination” does not mean that I go around and change churches at a drop of a hat. This Christian does not do this.

I don’t claim to be more right than Wesley, Luther, Thomas of Aquinas, Calvin, Augustine, Rick Warren, Ignatius…

At the end of the day if we have a dispute over any given doctrine and we pull out the Bible and show our “proof texts” who is right me or you? Who decides which of us has it right? Certainly Jesus didnt leave Christians in such a conundrum of not knowing who’s interpretation is correct.

Actually those are really good questions for Christians who believe that any type of central church government is unscriptural.

I’ve heard it said that Assemblies of God and Southern Baptists are unscriptural because they both have a central government system, and I question that. But then again church government is not my forte.

But it does seem that when the Christian church divides upon itself, you obviously lose a global central authority (since interdenominational authority is an oxymoron). The best you can get is an intradenomination authority. But then if denominations are unscriptural, the best you can get is intra-local-church authority. Hmm…that doesn’t really pass the smell test.

 

[Seamus_Sully]

Romans 10, 8
The Word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart.

I John 5, 10
Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony within Himself.

The physical or written scripture is not enough. Actually, the lieteral kills according to St. Paul. The spiritual word is within our heart.

Is this not correct?

FURTHERMORE…

I Thess. 5, 8…putting on the breastplate of faith and love…

Eph. 6, 14…clothed with rigtheousness as a breastplate…

Breastplate of righteousness includes love and faith.

If one holds justified and saved by faith, then one must see here that faith is within our heart, and thus our justification and salvation is within our heart. Justification is not outside us; justification is within the heart/soul.