Not completely human

[DaveBj]

I had an interesting encounter with our parish priest this morning. In his homily, he commented that some have the impression that because Mary did not have original sin, she was somehow less than fully human. He did refute that notion satisfactorily.

Afterwards in the vestibule I commented that it was my impression that it is we sinners who are somewhat less than fully human, while Mary, not having been touched by original sin, would have been completely human. He responded that that was an interesting way to see it, but it was not the way the Church sees it.

That surprised me. I will admit to ignorance of the fine points of theology and philosophy, but it seems to me that Adam and Eve, in their state of innocence, would have been completely human. Then as a result of the fall, they lost something, or several somethings (innocence and sanctifying grace, for two), and those losses would have made them less than what they were before. Therefore, if they were completely human before the fall, they were less than human after it.

I would be interested in other viewpoints on this, but I would be more interested if someone could point me to authoritative Church teaching stating that fallen man the definition of “completely human.”

DaveBj

 

[juliamajor]

Sin does not remove our humanity- we are still fully human that does not change.Perfection is not a human trait but a Divine one. Adam and Eve lived in a perfect state without being perfect themselves- they were still wholly human-.if they were perfect there would have been no fall!
If we were perfect we’d be God.Which we aren’t!

 

[Big_Ro]

If we were capable of acheiving perfection then there would be no need for God to sacrifice his only son. It is our sinful nature that gives us access to God through Christ our Lord. The Apostle Paul covers this quite well in Romans.

 

[Biggie]

I would cite the case of both Jesus and Mary to demonstrate that the human being can be perfect. I also do not think the fall indicates that Adam and Eve were less than perfect, but rather that they had a free will and chose to exercise it for ill. I do not think the original sin made the human being less than human, but that it created a breach between God and man that could not be repaired without the Messiah and the cross. That breach had consequences for humanity because the human nature is to love God.

Jesus commanded: “Therefore be perfect, even as your Heavenly Father is perfect.”

 

[juliamajor]

I would cite the case of both Jesus and Mary to demonstrate that the human being can be perfect. I also do not think the fall indicates that Adam and Eve were less than perfect, but rather that they had a free will and chose to exercise it for ill. I do not think the original sin made the human being less than human, but that it created a breach between God and man that could not be repaired without the Messiah and the cross. That breach had consequences for humanity because the human nature is to love God.

Mary was made perfect because of her Son- she did not achieve it on her own.Jesus was perfect because he also was God.But that did not stop Him from being fully human in all things but sin.

 

[Biggie]

Mary was made perfect because of her Son- she did not achieve it on her own.Jesus was perfect because he also was God.But that did not stop Him from being fully human in all things but sin.

To say that it is possible for a human being to be perfect is not to say perfection is possible without God. Likewise to say that Jesus is fully human is also to say that human perfection is possible. And again, the Lord would not have commanded that which is not possible.

 

[DaveBj]

Sin does not remove our humanity- we are still fully human that does not change.Perfection is not a human trait but a Divine one. Adam and Eve lived in a perfect state without being perfect themselves- they were still wholly human-.if they were perfect there would have been no fall!
If we were perfect we’d be God.Which we aren’t!

Julia, you managed to derail this thread on post #2.

I didn’t say a thing about perfection. I was asking about whether sinful humans (like me) are considered by the Catholic Church to be just as fully human as Adam and Eve (who lost something in the Fall, so after the Fall they were less fully something than they were before), or as Mary (who was imacculately conceived).

DaveBj

 

[Biggie]

Sorry to follow the rail out of town, Dave. … But perfection aside, my obvious answer is yes, we are fully human as was Adam and Eve as was the Holy Mother and Jesus for that matter. Original sin does not diminish our humanity but impinges upon it, or imposes upon it an orientation away from God.

A plant by its nature orients itself toward the sun, just as we by our nature orient ourselves toward God. We however are capable of the conscious choice to turn away. If the plant could turn itself from the sun, it would wilt and die but it would still be a plant. By the same token, turned away from God we wilt and die, but we are still human.

 

[Myrmideo]

I agree with the above posters. Whether someone sins or not doesn’t make someone less human. Take Satan for example, Satan is an angel, a fallen angel (demon), but an angel nevertheless. So humans after Adam and Eve, unless protected by the grace of God like Mary, are in a fallen state, but still human.