Not Convinced.....

[BryanM27]

simeon, i’m going to throw out a few things for you and for everyone to digest.

First is in reference to Sola Scriptura. If scripture is the end-all-be-all and we must follow it as it is, then wouldn’t that make marriage a sin? and justify slavery?

The gut-check response is “no way!” But Paul says in his first letter to the Corinthians that we should remain in whatever state we were called. If we were called as slaves we should remain as such. Those who were not married when called should remain that way. This can EASILY be misinterpreted into the questions I asked above.

He also states in 1 Cor 14:34-36 that women are not permitted to speak in church. Was he really trying to put down women? Again, our gut-check response says not. Why do we say this? Because we live in a different time and culture than Paul. The authors of the NT, especially the letters, were writing to the believers of their day. They wrote to address individual groups and communities and the problems that were arising there. They were not writing to establish every single dogmatic belief of the church.

Knowing this, we now have to interpret the bible within it’s historical context before we can apply it to today’s world. That leads us to a faith based on scripture and tradition.

 

[FaithJoy]

I understand that Jesus was conceived in her womb, but she is His earthly mother, not his heavenly mother. She was an instrument used to bring Jesus into the world; God could have brought Jesus, fully grown, floating on a cloud to the Earth, and Mary would be nothing to us other that another Christian woman, but He did’nt. He used Mary as an instrument to bring Jesus into the world. She was His mother in a physical and earthly way, but NOT in a spiritual way. Also, I have heard that Mary is supposedy the “Queen of Heaven”. (I am not saying that you are in any way wrong) Could you please explain your reasoning? I’d love to know. Thanks!

It doesn’t say that in the bible. It doesn’t say that Mary is only an instrument or only an earthly mother to Jesus. You are adding to the bible.If it says this, quote it.

 

[joandarc2008]

Hmmmm… Maybe I need to rephrase. When I say scripture is sufficient, I don’t mean ONLY scripture. Other things can guide us, like the Holy Spirit, other believers, etc. What I was trying to say was, even though Apostlic(sp?)Tradition is important, if you begin to follow the teachings of man (tradition) more that the teachings of God (scripture), than you will ultimatley stumble. I might be ignorant of the early church history and how today’s Bible is different from the Bible back then, but I believe that the Bible should be used as a sort of spiritual filter for all other sources of guidance. Even if a certain tradition is part of the “Apostlic Traditions”, but it goes against God’s ultimate Word, it is wrong.

Bold is mine for emphasis. Ahh and there is the rub. I guarantee you there is absolutely NO apostolic tradition that is against scripture. As a matter of fact if you read the Catechism - for every article (which is a fancy word for explanation) you will find a foot note to a scripture verse, council, or encyclical. If it goes to the latter two you will find more footnotes back to scripture. The difference is 2000 years of Study of Scripture as opposed to a few hundred, it is far more advanced, far more correct, and far more beautiful.

 

[Genesius]

Thank you for coming to the rescue, Pablope and Miriam… I would like to have responded but there is so much info and so little time. I have been extremely ill and my mind does not work like it used to.

 

[joandarc2008]

Let me explain something else to you. Souls in Heaven can pray for you. When we “pray to Mary” as so many of us incorrectly dub it we are asking for her prayers. Just I may ask you to pray for me. It is certainly unfair of God for Him to allow us to pray for our dead but not allow them who are with Him to pray for us in return. What do you think the point of being with him in Heaven would be??

 

[BryanM27]

next with regards to the “worship” of Mary:

I’ve been reading a lot of the works of St. Louis Marie de Montfort lately, so I’m going to be paraphrasing a good bit of his ideas. This is okay, because they were greatly influential to many Church leaders including Pope John Paul II.

So what Montfort says, is that Mary is our Queen Mother the way that Bathsheeba was Queen Mother to Solomon. As has already been pointed out, Christ did not enter the world as a fully mature human male. He was conceived in Mary’s womb, making her “yes” an essential part of salvation. Prior to his birth, and for his entire life as a youth, Jesus was dependent on his mother (and Joseph) just as you are dependent on yours. If Mary had stopped eating at any point while pregnant, Jesus starves. She stops breathing, so does he. His life was directly tied to hers for that time. After his birth, he relied on care from his parental figures in the form of food, clothing and shelter.

Christ’s dependence on her makes her important, as do his words on the Cross:

"26 When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to her, "Woman, here is your son,“27 and to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.”

He gave us his own mother as a way for us to better reach him. Her role as our Queen Mother is that of an intermediary with the ultimate intermediary. As Montfort says, who on earth would approach an earthly king without someone to stand with us? Why, then, if we would not approach an earthly king is it okay to approach the King of Kings and Lord of Lords who is fully God without first going to an intermediary?

Montfort also taught that by going to Mary first we are making ourselves even more humble, which is a trait our God values above all. We recognize that our sins stain even our best works, so we offer them to Our Lady who, in her love, never refuses us. She cleanses our offerings of sin and presents them to Our Lord on our behalf.

I know this is really deep stuff, but Montfort is one of the “fathers” of Marian Doctrine in the Church, so his views should be counted.

 

[ignatius777]

Lately, I have been comparing and contrasting Catholic beliefs and Baptist beliefs. First off, I would like to begin with “sola scriptura”. I personally believe that if the Bible was not alone sufficient, than God would somewhere explicitly state it in scripture. I have heard arguments asking why, if scripture is alone sufficient, that there are so many different denominations of Christianity.My answer is that, while scripture is alone sufficient, this is caused by different interpretations, because many parts the Bible can be misinterpreted. Second, nowhere in the Bible does it say to venerate Mary, and nowhere does it say that she is sinless, “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23). Because, even when, in the Bible, she was honored,(but not worshiped), Jesus corrected her and said that rather, those who obeyed God’s commandments were blessed. I am not trying to officially say it (the Catholic faith) is false, of disrespecting it’s beliefs, but I am just not convinced that Catholicism is the right path. Please correct me if I am wrong, and please, if you correct or explain, to go into as much detail and explanation as possible, to make sure I understand.

You have to imagine that if those who wrote the books that make up the bible thought sola scriptura should be the rule, then to not mention such an apparently pivotal and important teaching in those books is either a monumental oversight or it was never their intention in the first place to teach sola scriptura.

As for Mary look to the story of the wedding of Cana. What dos that story reveal to you about the truth of God? Nothing in the bible is there by chance. Every bit of it reveals something that God wants us to know. Think about why Mary is even involved in the story in the first place.

 

[BryanM27]

You have to imagine that if those who wrote the books that make up the bible thought sola scriptura should be the rule, then to not mention such an apparently pivotal and important teaching in those books is either a monumental oversight or it was never their intention in the first place to teach sola scriptura.

As for Mary look to the story of the wedding of Cana. What dos that story reveal to you about the truth of God? Nothing in the bible is there by chance. Every bit of it reveals something that God wants us to know. Think about why Mary is even involved in the story in the first place.

And to build on that point, notice how Jesus at first dismisses his mother. But she turns to the servants and tells them “Do whatever he tells you.” Jesus can now either roll up his sleeves and go to work as his mother asked, or he can prove he has no respect for her at all. Which does he choose?

 

[joandarc2008]

I wish the Mods would please split these into two different threads.

 

[pablope]

As I said before, Mary is Jesus’ EARTHLY mother, but not His HEAVENLY mother. There IS no Heavenly mother, for ANY OF US. If Jesus was a King on Earth, than she would be the queen of whatever-you-call-it-land. BUT, she is not, in ANY way, paternally related to Him(in a heavenly way). Therefore, she is not the queen of Heaven OR Earth.

Where do you think is Mary now? Not in Heaven? If she is in Heaven, then she is very much alive there, isn’t it? And I take it you believe God is all powerful, don’t you think He can mandate Mary as our heavenly mother? Or is it your belief that God would not do this, is beyond this?

 

[pablope]

God created Jesus by himself, there was no mother or wife involved. Mary is NOT divine, she is human. She has NO special influence on Christ WHATSOEVER. She is not omniscient or omnipresent, so how can she hear millions of prayers at once? ABSOLUTLEY NO ONE is above sin, except God. She is only a vessel (or an instrument, if you like) that helped bring Christ into the world in human form. She has ABSOLUTLEY NO influence in our salvation whatsoever. Jesus is the ONLY meditator between man and God. Period. Here is a link to explain my reasoning:

evangelicaloutreach.org/mother-of-Jesus.htm

I checked out this site…and usual twisting of verses to argue against Mary. What did strike me is it had a section on Fatima. So I checked this out. Again, the usual twisting of the message of Fatima, and distorting this fact:

Anybody who objectively looked at Fatima would know that in August 1917, the 3 children were abducted by Portugese authorities to prevent them from seeing Mary at the appointed place and day. So, Mary appeared to the 3 children later to keep her promise. And here is what this site states:

*Wrong Time and Place!
The fourth apparition occurred on August 15, 1917 in a place different from the Cova da Iria called Valinhos. ( Ibid., p. 33.) A different source shows a four day discrepancy from this account:

On the afternoon of Sunday 19 August, Lucia, Francisco and his broth John were pasturing the sheep in a rocky field known as Valinhos, about a mile from Fatima, when suddenly they noticed the beginning of the extraordinary atmospheric phenomena that has preceded the visions in the Cova da Iria. (Francis Johnson, Fatima: The Great Sign [Tan Books and Publishers, Rockford, Illinois], p. 45.)

**Note: In both quotes it was not on the 13th of the month and not in the place where Mary told the children to be to see the apparition. Is it possible the all-knowing God was taken by surprise and had to send Mary to a different place on a different day then originally announced? ***

And you are trusting your beliefs on a site like this? I hope you would find it in your heart and conscience to make them correct this error.

 

[the_phoenix]

I see nobody responded to this Bible verse yet?

“And it came to pass, as he spoke these things, a certain woman from the crowd, lifting up her voice, said to him: Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck. But he said: Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it.”

~ Luke 11:27-28

Guess who heard the word of God and kept it best of all among us mere mortals?

“And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.”

~~ Luke 1:38

 

[benidict]

As I said before, Mary is Jesus’ EARTHLY mother, but not His HEAVENLY mother. There IS no Heavenly mother, for ANY OF US. If Jesus was a King on Earth, than she would be the queen of whatever-you-call-it-land. BUT, she is not, in ANY way, paternally related to Him(in a heavenly way). Therefore, she is not the queen of Heaven OR Earth.

really??? lets take a look at john 19:26-27. this is what Jesus did, right before he died on the cross. vs26 when Jesus therefore had seen his mother, and the disciple standing whom he loved, he SAYETH TO HIS MOTHER: WOMAN, BEHOLD THY SON. vs 27 after that, he SAYETH TO THE DISCIPLE: BEHOLD THY MOTHER. and from that hour, the diciple took her to his own. not only did Christ give Mary to John at that time, he gave Her to the Church. where do you think the tradition of her assumption came from? John was more than likely very much alive when this occured. why did he or any of the other apostles not put a lid on this, if it didnt happen? if not them, then the disciples of the apostles? who were much closer to the events than we will ever be. peace my friend.

 

[benidict]

God created Jesus by himself, there was no mother or wife involved. Mary is NOT divine, she is human. She has NO special influence on Christ WHATSOEVER. She is not omniscient or omnipresent, so how can she hear millions of prayers at once? ABSOLUTLEY NO ONE is above sin, except God. She is only a vessel (or an instrument, if you like) that helped bring Christ into the world in human form. She has ABSOLUTLEY NO influence in our salvation whatsoever. Jesus is the ONLY meditator between man and God. Period.

ah my friend. you are thinking in terms of time and space. but…Mary is not part of time and space. she is in Heaven. more than likely, (and someone can correct me if im wrong here.) she is already in her glorified body, just like elijah, and enoch. therefore her body is like Christ body, which we are all promised will happen to us at the ressurection. so it is not at all impossible that she can hear millions of prayers at once. we dont know how that works. we are still in time and space. much to be discovered when we arrive at our final destination. Peace

 

[Steel_Pinwheel]

Lately, I have been comparing and contrasting Catholic beliefs and Baptist beliefs. First off, I would like to begin with “sola scriptura”. I personally believe that if the Bible was not alone sufficient, than God would somewhere explicitly state it in scripture. I have heard arguments asking why, if scripture is alone sufficient, that there are so many different denominations of Christianity.My answer is that, while scripture is alone sufficient, this is caused by different interpretations, because many parts the Bible can be misinterpreted. Second, nowhere in the Bible does it say to venerate Mary, and nowhere does it say that she is sinless, “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23). Because, even when, in the Bible, she was honored,(but not worshiped), Jesus corrected her and said that rather, those who obeyed God’s commandments were blessed. I am not trying to officially say it (the Catholic faith) is false, of disrespecting it’s beliefs, but I am just not convinced that Catholicism is the right path. Please correct me if I am wrong, and please, if you correct or explain, to go into as much detail and explanation as possible, to make sure I understand.

Hi. I’m also Protestant, but I’ve been looking into becoming Catholic. First, Protestants don’t really believe in Sola Scriptura. They say that as an excuse to reject Catholic doctrine. Protestants have their own religious traditions. And, worse, they impose their own unbiblical doctrines upon the Bible. Both of these contribute to the plurality of denominations as well as the growing anemia of the church.

I agree with you about Mary. Catholics seem way off the mark there. You point out that Jesus rhetorically slapped someone who tried to offer blessings to Mary. Her sinlessness, perpetual virginity, and interceding agency are also difficult to accept.

Yet, I find the Catholic’s excessive adoration of Mary less objectionable than some of the things in the Protestant church. Maybe because it seems rather innocuous and also because it is not the result of a church drifting in the political wind. Being in this forum, one of my biggest concerns I see with the Catholic Church is how much of the modern Protestant attitude that has crept into it, and not where it would help the most.

 

[PbloPicasso]

This concept of time and space had me perplexed for many years. The more i studied it the more I realized that God does in fact transcend time and space. God can Will anything He desires. He can enable anyone in heave to also transcend time and space. In fact, I believe heaven transcends time and space and that is why the Saints and Angels can hear our prayers. They are doing the work of God. There is a spiritual war going on all around us. We don’t see it because it is not in our created reality. The correlation between Solomon and Behtsheba is significant to the relationship between Jesus and Mary. Adam and Eve, Arc of the covenant vs. Mary. Noah’s Ark, carried life for salvation. All of the arks seemed to have completely disappeared. If Elijah can be assumed into heaven, then why can’t Mary. Church teaching has held this since the beginning. The bible does in fact elude to it in Revelations, but many refuse to accept it as such and continue to believe their man made traditions, less than 500 years old. It sounds more like men wanting to subdue women even further. And ironically, Mary existed in a time when women were considered more like property and absolutely subservient to their husbands.

It’s all seems to be the way someone else wrapped the package before delivering it to you that determines how we see something. If a man has been taught that women are never to be trusted and they are evil, it will be very difficult for him to let go of those wrong perceptions/statements. The same is true with how the faith has been delivered to us. However, both can be overcome with time and patience and a determination to learn the truth.

 

[mountaintop]

God created Jesus by himself, there was no mother or wife involved. Mary is NOT divine, she is human. She has NO special influence on Christ WHATSOEVER. She is not omniscient or omnipresent, so how can she hear millions of prayers at once? ABSOLUTLEY NO ONE is above sin, except God. She is only a vessel (or an instrument, if you like) that helped bring Christ into the world in human form. She has ABSOLUTLEY NO influence in our salvation whatsoever. Jesus is the ONLY meditator between man and God. Period.

your right jesus is the only mediator between man and God

John 14:6 (New International Version, ©2010)

6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Luke 22:19-21 (New International Version, ©2010)

19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”

20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.[a]

if catholics worship bread then water did not turn into wine at the wedding of cana don’t miss the boat.:slapfight:

 

[Nicea325]

Originally Posted by simeonhuff
God created Jesus by himself, there was no mother or wife involved…

Heresy! God did NOT create Jesus. Are you a Jehovah Witnesses? They believe God created Jesus first before all other creatures. Jesus is God…does the Incarnation ring a bell?

 

[Robert_in_SD]

As I said before, Mary is Jesus’ EARTHLY mother, but not His HEAVENLY mother.

Jesus has only one mother - the woman who conceived Him as a virgin and gave birth to Him in a stable in Bethlehem.

simeonhuff:

There IS no Heavenly mother, for ANY OF US. If Jesus was a King on Earth, than she would be the queen of whatever-you-call-it-land. BUT, she is not, in ANY way, paternally related to Him(in a heavenly way).

In heaven, your mother and father will still be your mother and father. That is eternal and will not change. It is the same way with Jesus. When the Second Person of the Trinity chose to take a human nature as His own, He chose Mary to be His mother. Because we believe Jesus is God, and Mary is His mother, she is called the Mother of God.

simeonhuff:

Therefore, she is not the queen of Heaven OR Earth.

So, are you asserting that Jesus Christ is not the Lord of Heaven and Earth? If that is your assertion, I respectfully disagree. However, if you believe Jesus Christ is the King of the Universe, then just as David’s mother was queen mother of Israel, Jesus’s mother was is Queen. Again, this does not make her divine, or worthy of adoration. But it does give her very unique standing in the Christian community.

Peace,
Robert

 

[ConstantineTG]

I personally believe that if the Bible was not alone sufficient, than God would somewhere explicitly state it in scripture.

On the other hand, no where in scripture is it explicitly stated that scripture alone is sufficient.

Moreover, there’s this little verse here at the end of the Gospel of John saying that not everything is in the Bible

[BIBLEDRB]John 20:30-31[/BIBLEDRB]

And:

[BIBLEDRB]John 21:25[/BIBLEDRB]