Not Convinced.....

[Richard_Kastner]

Nice attempt. However, what is in question with abortion by advocates is at what point it becomes an actual person, and that, my friend is not addressed in Scripture.

Again, conjecture on your part. You are making the assumption that abortion is the abortion of a human being. Perhaps rightly so, and I am with you 100%. I believe that abortion at any stage is murder. But neither my personal opinion, nor yours, answers the question of whether it’s addressed in Scripture, and that’s where the interpretation rests on either the teaching authority of the magisterium or the myriad of other non-Catholic Christian denominations.

People keep saying I am conjecturing when all that I am doing is citing scripture. But anyway, you say “what is in question with abortion by advocates is at what point it becomes an actual person, and that, my friend is not addressed in Scripture” So, let’s take a look at Luke 1:41And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
It has always been my belief that the “babe” refered to here was John the Baptist and that a babe is like, you know a small HUMAN BEING and that human being at this point is in Elisabeth’s womb (not born yet).

 

[Nicea325]

Originally Posted by Nicea325
Richard,again you are injecting your own conjecture to things which were not simply there.The NT was NOT complete Richard and if you insist the above verse includes the NT;then provide historical evidence showing Paul referred to the 27 NT books.Likewise, the NT was complete by the time Paul wrote to Timothy.

Quote:Richard
:

Verse 16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: This says ALL scripture Mark. Are you saying that the NT is not scripture or that it is not inspired.

If you read this post really carefully Nicea, which you obviously did not do, you will see that I have not injected my own conjecture at all. I merely point out the obvious and ask some questions.

No Richard,go back and read your own words. You apparently do not read what you write.
Richard,you do inject your own conjectures and presuppositions and I am letting you acknowledge it. Here take a look,your words Richard:

Richard Kastner:

Quote:
Verse 16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: This says ALL scripture Mark. Are you saying that the NT is not scripture or that it is not inspired.

False and pure conjecture Richard. As a result, I asked for historical evidence supporting your claim that St.Paul was referring to the 27 NT books.

Originally Posted by Nicea325
Richard,again you are injecting your own conjecture to things which were not simply there.The NT was NOT complete Richard and if you insist the above verse includes the NT;then provide historical evidence showing Paul referred to the 27 NT books.Likewise, the NT was complete by the time Paul wrote to Timothy.

Quote:
Second,if you believe SS is valid and ALL scripture is given by the inspiration of God;

The bible says all scripture is inspired. Don’t you believe the bible, Nicea?

Richard,the issue here is not inspiration,you are off on another tangent. I asked for historical evidence the NT was complete by the time Paul wrote to Timothy. Likewise,did Paul refer to the 27 NT books when he said ALL scripture? According to you he did,thus I want some historical evidence supporting your position.Richard I believe and worship in God,not the Bible.

Quote:
I guess it is fair to say one may believe and practice Sola Matthew or Sola John or Sola Timothy,etc,etc,since according to you, scripture-alone is sufficient for salvation?

Yes, I believe that all those writings tell us of salvation in Jesus. I’m not sure what you mean by “practice”

Simply that one may reject all the other writings and simply use one gospel or epistle,hence Sola Scriptura. It’s sufficient according to you.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

:
Verse 16All scripture is given by inspiration of God

 

[Nicea325]

Nicea325;7371800:

False and pure conjecture Richard. As a result, I asked for historical evidence supporting your claim that St.Paul was referring to the 27 NT books.

Does not the underlined section say "All

scripture is given by inspiration of God"
So how is that conjecture?
Ya, Nicea I’m through with your little games. I have nothing against a person vigorously defending or promoting their point of view, but you constant misrepresentation of what I say and your contentious attitude is just too tiresome.

I beg your pardon? If you cannot back up your arguments,then it is you who is playing games. Yes Richard pure conjecture on your part. You cannot acknowledge it?

It is you alone,not Paul, who truly believes St.Paul was referring to the 27 NT books. Richard where does Paul even mention the NT as being inspired in 2 Tim 3:16? Where does Paul say: All scripture includes the 27 NT books/letters? Where do you get such an idea?

Paul determined the NT was inspired? Is that what you believe?

So Richard,I am curious why you still fail to produce an ounce of evidence supporting your belief? Where is Paul referring to and including the 27 NT books/epistles? The NT was complete? Show me the evidence Richard? Paul knew of the 27 NT books/epistles already being inspured? Evidence Richard.

 

[Cruxis117]

So you believe in the principle of sola scriptura?

No, not at all. Such an idea is abhorrent to me, as it entails denying half the truth to place the other half on a pedestal.

 

[zach_dunn]

Does not the underlined section say “All scripture is given by inspiration of God”
So how is that conjecture?
Ya, Nicea I’m through with your little games. I have nothing against a person vigorously defending or promoting their point of view, but you constant misrepresentation of what I say and your contentious attitude is just too tiresome.

I have a question for you Richard: What constitutes “All Scripture” and how do you know?

Thanks!

 

[mountaintop]

really??? lets take a look at john 19:26-27. this is what Jesus did, right before he died on the cross. vs26 when Jesus therefore had seen his mother, and the disciple standing whom he loved, he SAYETH TO HIS MOTHER: WOMAN, BEHOLD THY SON. vs 27 after that, he SAYETH TO THE DISCIPLE: BEHOLD THY MOTHER. and from that hour, the diciple took her to his own. not only did Christ give Mary to John at that time, he gave Her to the Church. where do you think the tradition of her assumption came from? John was more than likely very much alive when this occured. why did he or any of the other apostles not put a lid on this, if it didnt happen? if not them, then the disciples of the apostles? who were much closer to the events than we will ever be. peace my friend.

I think you might be wrong on this one. christ didn’t give mary to the church. she is the catholic church.
Revelation 12
The Woman and the Dragon
1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. 5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”[a] And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.
7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:

“Now have come the salvation and the power
and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Messiah.
For the accuser of our brothers and sisters,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.
11 They triumphed over him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death.
12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens
and you who dwell in them!
But woe to the earth and the sea,
because the devil has gone down to you!
He is filled with fury,
because he knows that his time is short.”

13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. 15 Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

why do people have such a hard time crossing the tiber?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

No, not at all. Such an idea is abhorrent to me, as it entails denying half the truth to place the other half on a pedestal.

In the post to which I replied
Originally Posted by Richard Kastner
So you believe in the principle of sola scriptura?
You state

There is more to the Truth to Salvation than what is just found in the Scriptures, although the truth is in them.

What is the truth of salvation that is not found in scripture and in the post above you say that subscribing to the principle of SS would mean “denying half the truth to place the other half on a pedestal.” Could you clarify that?

 

[pablope]

In the post to which I replied
Originally Posted by Richard Kastner
So you believe in the principle of sola scriptura?
You state

What is the truth of salvation that is not found in scripture and in the post above you say that subscribing to the principle of SS would mean “denying half the truth to place the other half on a pedestal.” Could you clarify that?

Richard…may i suggest for you to start a thread on the subject. It is off topic already, I think, and that is only if you are apt to it.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Richard…may i suggest for you to start a thread on the subject. It is off topic already, I think, and that is only if you are apt to it.

Actually it’s not off topic. Cruxis117 made some statements concerning SS and I wanted him to clarify.

 

[pablope]

Actually it’s not off topic. Cruxis117 made some statements concerning SS and I wanted him to clarify.

Wouldn’t you like them answered or responded to in your own thread? Just give it some additional thoughts and consideration. I just think this thread has lost its original intent.

 

[zach_dunn]

Richard…may i suggest for you to start a thread on the subject. It is off topic already, I think, and that is only if you are apt to it.

The topic of sola Scriptura is, in fact, not off topic. It is one of the topics introduced by the OP himself/herself:

Lately, I have been comparing and contrasting Catholic beliefs and Baptist beliefs.** First off, I would like to begin with “sola scriptura”. I personally believe that if the Bible was not alone sufficient, than God would somewhere explicitly state it in scripture. I have heard arguments asking why, if scripture is alone sufficient, that there are so many different denominations of Christianity.My answer is that, while scripture is alone sufficient, this is caused by different interpretations, because many parts the Bible can be misinterpreted.** Second, nowhere in the Bible does it say to venerate Mary, and nowhere does it say that she is sinless, “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23). Because, even when, in the Bible, she was honored,(but not worshiped), Jesus corrected her and said that rather, those who obeyed God’s commandments were blessed. I am not trying to officially say it (the Catholic faith) is false, of disrespecting it’s beliefs, but I am just not convinced that Catholicism is the right path. Please correct me if I am wrong, and please, if you correct or explain, to go into as much detail and explanation as possible, to make sure I understand.

And I’d like to take this opportunity to ask Richard to answer my question: What constitutes “All Scripture” and how do you know?

Thanks!

 

[Genesius]

People keep saying I am conjecturing when all that I am doing is citing scripture. But anyway, you say “what is in question with abortion by advocates is at what point it becomes an actual person, and that, my friend is not addressed in Scripture” So, let’s take a look at Luke 1:41And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
It has always been my belief that the “babe” refered to here was John the Baptist and that a babe is like, you know a small HUMAN BEING and that human being at this point is in Elisabeth’s womb (not born yet).

Yes, you are correct. It was John the Baptist. But how far along in her pregnancy was Elizabeth, and does it matter? To you and I it doesn’t. But abortion advocates would say it does. That’s the whole controversy. Scripture doesn’t tell us if John was just conceived or 6 months in the womb, or 3 months, or 9 months. Obviously, he would have to have been far enough along to leap in her womb. But again, you cannot prove from this text that abortion is a sin. It’s focus is not on abortion, but the positive message of the forerunner of Christ.

A better passage would be prior to Christ’s birth when King Herod sought to kill all the firstborn in the region to prevent the birth of Christ. Obviously, that was abhorrent. But again, there’s no explicit charge against abortion. The term ‘abortion’ is nowhere found in any text of Scripture. How then do we know it’s a sin, let alone a mortal sin?

Keep in mind, when I am responding to your posts, I am not attempting to do so with any sense of hostility, but with charity. Again, I agree with you 100% on this issue…that abortion is an abhorrent sin…that it is murder. But not *primarily *because of Scripture, but because I have a central teaching authority in the Magisterium who has defined it to be so, not to mention…it just makes logical sense…

Peace (and I mean that).

 

[benidict]

I think you might be wrong on this one. christ didn’t give mary to the church. she is the catholic church.
Revelation 12
The Woman and the Dragon
1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. 5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”[a] And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.
7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:

“Now have come the salvation and the power
and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Messiah.
For the accuser of our brothers and sisters,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.
11 They triumphed over him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death.
12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens
and you who dwell in them!
But woe to the earth and the sea,
because the devil has gone down to you!
He is filled with fury,
because he knows that his time is short.”

13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. 15 Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

why do people have such a hard time crossing the tiber?

i could very well be. it seems you are hinting at something deeper i am missing my friend. will study your post better when i have a little more time. you can also p.m. your thoughts to me on this. id love to read them. dont want to respond until im sure of what your saying. i will p.m. you as well. Peace

 

[benidict]

hi Richard. yes this an answer to your question. several other posters, not all of them Catholic, i might add, see what i am getting at. but i understand, why you cannot accept this answer. your founder E.G. White, understood, the issue was not at all clear in the bible, and refused to take a side. because, if she did, she as well as her followers, would have to say, the believed in a tradition outside of the bible, that was correct. so now your turn Richard. i answered you, now you can answer me. does a person, who advocates or defends the murder of the unborn, or is for people practicing euthanasia, or defending it, have a place in the world. to come? its a simple yes or no answer Richard. no need to make it complicated… peace

apparently my friend, you have no answer for this. very well. at least let it be known i tried. have a safe Christmas season and God bless you and yours.

 

[KathleenGee]

Richard,

You are Seventh Day Adventist…I remember when you get prodding more why I accept faith in having worship on Sunday.

I shared with you directly from the catechism on a number of points and you answered back that you deleted my posts.

Catholicism is based on the Oral Tradition of Jesus Christ given us by the Apostles. As you know very well, it took Christianity many, many years and many people to discern in the Holy Spirit which books to incorporate into the Bible that would support the Church and its foundation – based on the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

You are implying that nothing really has happened after Revelations, written by John the Evangelist. You however do acknowledge the history and works of the Old Testament.

However, you are not acknowledging the tremendous effect on mankind with Christ’s breaking the power of sin and darkness at His Crucifixion and His Resurrection from the dead that gives us new life – in Him, and Christ’s institution of the sacraments – baptism – a Catholic rite, confession – the power given the Apostles to forgive sin when He came to them on the evening of the Resurrection, confirmation – the confirming and deepening and marking of the Holy Spirit, Holy Orders – those chosen and set aside by Christ to be His Ministers of the Blood, St. Catherine of Siena’s wording, the sacrament of Matrimony – a Catholic marriage is permanent, and the sacrament of healing.

In the book of Revelations, we are witness to the early churches, their difficulties, trials and endurance, and the teaching to persevere and that in the end, good will triumph over evil.

Just as the Jewish people have their history, so does Christianity…and what follows the Bible and the Book of Revelation is the Church. You would have no Bible without the Church. There has to be an authorized body of those consecrated to Christ to oversee His church to protect and instruct the faithful from the ever present ‘locusts’ with long hair that have power to poison souls…this image referring to heretics and false teachers who destroy the life of Christ and belief in the Sacrament that bring us to eternal life…because Christ is always present to us through the incorporation of our baptism to His healing and nurturing presence in the sacraments and in the Word.

The Word of God in Scripture and the life of the Church and the Tradition of understanding and implementing faith in Christ as the Apostles taught us has always been there.

The Catholic faith is apostolic. Just as it takes an act of faith to believe in Christ and to give one’s life to Him, it also takes an act of faith to believe that the apostolic, universal Church is indeed the one instituted by Christ. As He told us, He would never leave us orphans.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

apparently my friend, you have no answer for this. very well. at least let it be known i tried. have a safe Christmas season and God bless you and yours.

Well I believe I did answer your question. Ex.20:13Thou shalt not kill. tells us that we must not kill.
Luke1:41And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
tells us that the entity whithin Elisabeth is a “babe” or a human being. So the bible alone tells us that we must not kill and I think that I can assume that it is talking about humans and it also tells us that the unborn are “babes” or human and therefore cannot be killed under pain of sin. 1Jn.3:4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

To me this is clear enough that abortion is not allowed and this can be gleaned exclusively from the bible. So, is that it. Is that all that you think is only taught in your tradition that you think is essential to our salvation?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Richard,

You are Seventh Day Adventist…I remember when you get prodding more why I accept faith in having worship on Sunday.

I shared with you directly from the catechism on a number of points and you answered back that you deleted my posts.

You have accused me of this before and it just is not true. This forum is run by CAF. The administrators of this forum as far as I am aware are the only ones that can delete posts. I am not an administrator nor have I ever deleted posts. Don’t even know how nor do I care to.

Catholicism is based on the Oral Tradition of Jesus Christ given us by the Apostles. As you know very well, it took Christianity many, many years and many people to discern in the Holy Spirit which books to incorporate into the Bible that would support the Church and its foundation – based on the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Ok

You are implying that nothing really has happened after Revelations, written by John the Evangelist. You however do acknowledge the history and works of the Old Testament.

I don’t know what you mean by “You are implying that nothing really has happened after Revelations,”

However, you are not acknowledging the tremendous effect on mankind with Christ’s breaking the power of sin and darkness at His Crucifixion and His Resurrection from the dead that gives us new life – in Him

You read through my posts and still make this accusation? Shame on you Kathleen.

and Christ’s institution of the sacraments – baptism – a Catholic rite, confession – the power given the Apostles to forgive sin when He came to them on the evening of the Resurrection, confirmation – the confirming and deepening and marking of the Holy Spirit, Holy Orders – those chosen and set aside by Christ to be His Ministers of the Blood, St. Catherine of Siena’s wording, the sacrament of Matrimony – a Catholic marriage is permanent, and the sacrament of healing.

I do disagree with the CC’s idea of the sacraments.

In the book of Revelations, we are witness to the early churches, their difficulties, trials and endurance, and the teaching to persevere and that in the end, good will triumph over evil.

Ok

Just as the Jewish people have their history, so does Christianity…and what follows the Bible and the Book of Revelation is the Church.

The church was established right after the fall.
Gen3: 15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

You would have no Bible without the Church. There has to be an authorized body of those consecrated to Christ to oversee His church to protect and instruct the faithful from the ever present ‘locusts’ with long hair that have power to poison souls…this image referring to heretics and false teachers who destroy the life of Christ and belief in the Sacrament that bring us to eternal life…because Christ is always present to us through the incorporation of our baptism to His healing and nurturing presence in the sacraments and in the Word.

The Word of God in Scripture and the life of the Church and the Tradition of understanding and implementing faith in Christ as the Apostles taught us has always been there.

The Catholic faith is apostolic. Just as it takes an act of faith to believe in Christ and to give one’s life to Him, it also takes an act of faith to believe that the apostolic, universal Church is indeed the one instituted by Christ. As He told us, He would never leave us orphans.

Is there some point here Kathleen that pertains to the OP?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

The topic of sola Scriptura is, in fact, not off topic. It is one of the topics introduced by the OP himself/herself:

And I’d like to take this opportunity to ask Richard to answer my question: What constitutes “All Scripture” and how do you know?

Thanks!

All scripture is the bible old and new testaments. I Know it is scripture through faith. I believe it is. Heb.11: 1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. But this is off topic.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Yes, you are correct. It was John the Baptist. But how far along in her pregnancy was Elizabeth, and does it matter? To you and I it doesn’t. But abortion advocates would say it does. That’s the whole controversy. Scripture doesn’t tell us if John was just conceived or 6 months in the womb, or 3 months, or 9 months. Obviously, he would have to have been far enough along to leap in her womb. But again, you cannot prove from this text that abortion is a sin. It’s focus is not on abortion, but the positive message of the forerunner of Christ.

A better passage would be prior to Christ’s birth when King Herod sought to kill all the firstborn in the region to prevent the birth of Christ. Obviously, that was abhorrent. But again, there’s no explicit charge against abortion. The term ‘abortion’ is nowhere found in any text of Scripture. How then do we know it’s a sin, let alone a mortal sin?

Keep in mind, when I am responding to your posts, I am not attempting to do so with any sense of hostility, but with charity. Again, I agree with you 100% on this issue…that abortion is an abhorrent sin…that it is murder. But not *primarily *because of Scripture, but because I have a central teaching authority in the Magisterium who has defined it to be so, not to mention…it just makes logical sense…

Peace (and I mean that).

See post 214 above