Not Convinced.....

[rikkk1958]

I think the reason why protestants insist on “scripture alone” is because they truly believe the Holy Bible as the word of God and that it represents as means of salvation by way of their own interpretations.

We Catholics argue because we know that without the proper and true interpretation of the scriptures many might be lost. We know that this is happening because many of our brothers and sisters are already in that way. Like Richard, he thinks that his knowledge of the scriptures will save him. He seems to tell us that he does not need the Catholic Church to teach him.

Although we can say that his salvation will be based on his faith to the scriptures because we are not God who judge. What I think important for Richard to know is that, we Catholics value the Apostolic Tradition because we believe in the Lord Jesus Christ who gave instruction to His apostles while He was still with us. These instructions are what Richard reads and he is not satisfied that it is part of the oral and apostolic tradition of the Church.

Moreover, it is difficult for them to accept the other doctrines of the Church because they do not trust the Catholic Church’s teachings. They think that our doctrines are not based on scriptures. Although many Catholics may not even know how doctrines were officially declared to be the dogma of the Church, it is because they have fully trusted those who were responsible for those doctrines because they understand that it was not only that it is deeply rooted in the scriptures but also guided by the Holy Spirit.

We Catholics believe that no matter how the Church developed over time, even we know that it was in some formative years that history told us that is was chaotic at some points, we still maintained the Divinity of His Church and that we have already triumphed in gaining the full understanding so that it can be administered as righteous and holy as Christ wants it to be.

 

[zach_dunn]

What I hear you saying is that you believe in the bible and I believe in the bible but your way of believing the bible is better than my way of believing the bible. That your way is based on reason and my way is unreasonable, that you believe according to some historical evidence whatever that is and I just believe, which to your way of thinking is “groundless”. This is my understanding of what you where saying and when I said “OK”

I was merely answering your last question. “I hope you are understanding what I’m telling you” I was simply saying that I understand that you are saying that your WAY of believing is better than my way. I was in no way admitting that I agree, only that I understand. Quite frankly I find this discussion as somewhat a waste of time. Do you really think that I would convert to Catholicism because you think that your way of believing in the bible is better than mine?

The point is not exactly “my way of believing in the Bible is better than yours”, what you’re not understanding is that because you believe in sola Scriptura, you cannot even have a Bible to believe in. Do you understand that? The funny thing is that this conversation is probably of more concern to you than your conversation about Mary.

And for the record, I never expected you to jump up and convert to Catholicism; I only wanted you to see that the only reason you have a Bible is because of the infallible Magisterium of the Catholic Church which is infallible to this day . . . that’s what I wanted out of this conversation but it seems that you’re not even paying attention to it because “it’s a waste of time”.

 

[benidict]

The point is not exactly “my way of believing in the Bible is better than yours”, what you’re not understanding is that because you believe in sola Scriptura, you cannot even have a Bible to believe in. Do you understand that? The funny thing is that this conversation is probably of more concern to you than your conversation about Mary.

And for the record, I never expected you to jump up and convert to Catholicism; I only wanted you to see that the only reason you have a Bible is because of the infallible Magisterium of the Catholic Church which is infallible to this day . . . that’s what I wanted out of this conversation but it seems that you’re not even paying attention to it because “it’s a waste of time”.

just for the record zach. richard was a Catholic before lapseing and joining the sda camp. didnt know if you knew this. so dont get frustrated. its more difficult debating a former Catholic who probably has been properly taught, than a raving fundamentalist who really doesnt know what they are talking about. this would be like a baptist, trying to reclaim me to their way of thinking. and i can state as a fact. that would never happen. your reasoning is solid. your message sure my brother. i just think its falling on deaf ears. i will pray for your efforts, i do however think that richard has done us a great service showing the errors in thinking, that beset an adherent to E.G. White, and i am sure, many have decided to stay put in the Catholic Church after seeing our debates with him. and maybe a few adventist have had their minds enlightened. these are those who will never post, but they do read. and they do have questions. this is why i do it. it has nothing to do with our dear friend Richard. Peace to you and yours.

 

[Nicea325]

That’s where faith comes in. I have a bible and I BELIEVE that all the information I need for my salvation is contained within it’s pages. That is also how I KNOW it is sufficient.

The bible is the word of God. The specific books that comprise it are in it because He wants them there.

I cannot believe how much the SDA has gotten to this man’s brain. The Bible is not a question of God,but a question of HOW he managed to give us the Bible. God USED the CATHOLIC CHURCH and its BISHOPS to COMPRISE what books belong in it.

That is something SDA’s totally DENY due to their deep ignorance of history of the Bible and its background.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

I think the reason why protestants insist on “scripture alone” is because they truly believe the Holy Bible as the word of God and that it represents as means of salvation by way of their own interpretations.

The only means of salvation is Jesus Christ and His sacrifice, not the bible. The bible only tells us of Jesus. Not our own interpretation. the Holy Spirit’s.

We Catholics argue because we know that without the proper and true interpretation of the scriptures **many might be lost. We know that this is happening because many of our brothers and sisters are already in that way. Like Richard, he thinks that his knowledge of the scriptures will save him. ** He seems to tell us that he does not need the Catholic Church to teach him.

So you are taking on God’s job and and juging us as lost? Sorry, that job is already taken.

Although we can say that his salvation will be based on his faith to the scriptures because we are not God who judge.

What does this mean?

What I think important for Richard to know is that, we Catholics value the Apostolic Tradition because we believe in the Lord Jesus Christ who gave instruction to His apostles while He was still with us. These instructions are what Richard reads and he is not satisfied that it is part of the oral and apostolic tradition of the Church.

So are you saying that there is something that Jesus told His disciples that was necessary for our salvation that is only found in your oral tradition? What is that and why would He do that?

Moreover, it is difficult for them to accept the other doctrines of the Church because they do not trust the Catholic Church’s teachings.

What other doctrines?

They think that our doctrines are not based on scriptures. Although many Catholics may not even know how doctrines were officially declared to be the dogma of the Church, it is because they have fully trusted those who were responsible for those doctrines because they understand that it was not only that it is deeply rooted in the scriptures but also guided by the Holy Spirit.

I’m sorry I can’t figure out what you’re saying here.

We Catholics believe that no matter how the Church developed over time, even we know that it was in some formative years that history told us that is was chaotic at some points, we still maintained the Divinity of His Church and that we have already triumphed in gaining the full understanding so that it can be administered as righteous and holy as Christ wants it to be.

So you are saying that your church is divine? Doesn’t that mean God? So, you think the CC is God? Isn’t that blasphemy?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

The point is not exactly “my way of believing in the Bible is better than yours”, what you’re not understanding is that because you believe in sola Scriptura, you cannot even have a Bible to believe in. Do you understand that? The funny thing is that this conversation is probably of more concern to you than your conversation about Mary.

And for the record, I never expected you to jump up and convert to Catholicism; I only wanted you to see that the only reason you have a Bible is because of the infallible Magisterium of the Catholic Church which is infallible to this day . . . that’s what I wanted out of this conversation but it seems that you’re not even paying attention to it because “it’s a waste of time”.

Ok

 

[BlueShadow123]

I have a question…

Let’s say hypothetically even if Mary did for whatever reason commit some sort of sin in her life, would you see her any differently?

I am personally asking whoever is reading this right now… would you see her differently?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

I have a question…

Let’s say hypothetically even if Mary did for whatever reason commit some sort of sin in her life, would you see her any differently?

I am personally asking whoever is reading this right now… would you see her differently?

Differently than what?

 

[BlueShadow123]

Differently than what?

Than how whoever is reading it does now.

Shes held extremely high and one of those reasons is because of her thought of being sinless, but if hypothetically, she did commit some sort of sin even just once in her life, would you see her differently?

I would not.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Than how whoever is reading it does now.

Shes held extremely high and one of those reasons is because of her thought of being sinless, but if hypothetically, she did commit some sort of sin even just once in her life, would you see her differently?

I would not.

I always thought that she was a sinner so my perception of her would not in any way change. I would like to know if Catholics believe that the marian doctrines are necessary for salvation or if they can take them or leave them and still be considered Catholic?

 

[BlueShadow123]

I always thought that she was a sinner so my perception of her would not in any way change. I would like to know if Catholics believe that the marian doctrines are necessary for salvation or if they can take them or leave them and still be considered Catholic?

I have no idea. But I do know that Mary has nothing to do with salvation. That has to do with God and Jesus. At least for me.

 

[Mark01]

Mary is the Mother of Jesus and playes a very important role in our salvation. She is the vessel whom God chose to deliver His Son.

Catholics must accept the Marian Doctrines as truth to remain in communion with the Catholic Church.

 

[BlueShadow123]

Maybe for you Mark, but not for all of us. Mary has nothing to do with my personal salvation. Only God/Jesus determine my salvation and ultimately help me through it. Not Mary. I never said she wasn’t important, but she doesn’t determine or help my salvation in anyway whatsoever.

 

[faithfully]

I always thought that she was a sinner so my perception of her would not in any way change. I would like to know if Catholics believe that the marian doctrines are necessary for salvation or if they can take them or leave them and still be considered Catholic?

Do you mean a sinner because you believe she was born with original sin? Or a sinner because she sinned somehow in her 14 years of living prior to PG with Christ.

Things I don’t know about… but am curious about…

Mary was obviously Jewish. Was she baptized at birth, for the purpose of washing away original sin? (I don’t know about baptism and the Jewish faith)…

Even if she was, I suppose it would have been done because I doubt her parents knew she was immaculate. Certainly they wouldn’t risk her soul. And there’s no indication that any person identifies her as the future mother of Christ.

Does Mary make a confession prior to conceiving Christ? I don’t remember that this is ever indicated.

So,if she was sinful by the age of 14, wouldn’t God require a confession of sins, or SOMETHING to purify her before allowing her to carry him in human form for 9 months?

We’re not allowed Communion without a confession. Why would a sinful woman be allowed to hold God within her sinful body for 9 months. Her sinful blood coursing through his divine/human body???

I think it’s odd to profess she was a sinner. Based on WHAT? Does it really make sense that God would place himself INSIDE a sinner? Unless of course, one thinks God was born with orginal sin… or at least KNOWS sin by way of living within sin.

BlueShadow… no, if it were ever to come to my ears by way of Christ’s direction that Mary was a sinner, I would NOT think less of her. If she’s good enough for God, she’s good enough for me… That’s FO-SHOW! But I would NEVER, look God in the eye, given the opportunity, and say… Yeah, you’re mama was a sinner… Nope… Pretty sure that would go over like a lead balloon.

And in the way we often ask What would Jesus do? I’m pretty sure he’d follow his own commandments and HONOR HIS MOTHER… and We should too, in our efforts to be Christ-like! And quite frankly, I think it bears false WITNESS to proclaim with authority that Mary was a sinner. It’s referring to her in the negative, and it’s not something anyone can prove.

And see, People think we pray the rosary in effort to PRAY and WORSHIP Mary. However, if you study the mysteries of the Rosary, they are in effect, Mary’s Brag-Book about her son. The Prayers are used to meditate on the many important events of CHRIST’S life. The devotion is to get closer to Christ through his mother.

Say/analyze the words in the Hail Mary: Hail Mary, Full of Grace. The Lord is with you. Blessed art though among women. And Blessed the fruit of they womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, PRAY FOR US SINNERS… Now and at the hour of our death…

Please ANYONE, point to the words of WORSHIP within this prayer? In the way you may ask a friend to pray for you… Does NOT the mother of GOD have more prayerful effect than any friend you might ask??? I should think so.

Our Priest told a cute joke today:

A Catholic man and a non-Catholic man were discussing Mary. The non-Catholic man says… I don’t understand you Catholics. You make this big deal about Mary. I think of her as a mother, much like my own. The Catholic man says… you know? I don’t know if the two mothers are alike… But I do KNOW… the two sons are VERY DIFFERENT…

Anyhow… as I said. Mary does have to do with your ABILITY to be Saved. Without her consent to carry Christ to Human term… There would not have been a human/God to die for our sins. We know that our salvation, our ability to be saved rests on Christ coming to earth in form of a human, and dieing for our sins. He needed a mother. And somehow, I doubt that just any old woman would do. Would YOU select someone randomly for and extremely important job? Or would you select someone very qualified? Why would God not select with a more keen eye than you?

Whether or not you make it to heaven has fully to do with how you live your life. The choices you freely make. That’s already been established. It’s not really between you and Jesus… so much as how well you follow Jesus’ word. And how well you show him that you love him until the end of time. But you already express that…

Obviously we disagree in the ways that we can show him. I myself and completely on board with showing Christ my love by showing him in one way among many that I too honor his mother, and her sacrafices, by praying words expressing honorable words towards her, in order to get closer to Christ…

 

[Genesius]

Genesius,

1. Yes. I am not contradict that. If I was, then Jesus giving us His flesh to eat would only make us more sinful. Can I explain it fully? Nope and I do not claim to.
2. Yes, they can use that argument but to no avail. “For nothing is impossible with God” is something all Christians can agree. If they use that argument of infinite regress, then it follows that God could not have known that Mary was going to say yes. Fact is that she DID say yes and God knew that she qwould say yes and rightly so because she did. Hence, the Immaculate Conception and her being the Mother of God. He did it to preserve Mary from sin and to give His only Son the sinless flesh He needed to complete His task. God’s grace is greater than sin and God’s mercy is more powerful than evil and God knows how to transform it into good. (That last sentence was from Pope Benedict XVI.)

Does that make sense?

Yes, it does, and when you put it into the obvious context of Christ’s flesh in the Eucharist that I didn’t consider before, it makes “perfect” sense (pun intended ). I also like Pope Benedict XVI’s quote. Thank you for putting it all in context for me.

 

[Genesius]

The point is not exactly “my way of believing in the Bible is better than yours”, what you’re not understanding is that because you believe in sola Scriptura, you cannot even have a Bible to believe in. Do you understand that? The funny thing is that this conversation is probably of more concern to you than your conversation about Mary.

And for the record, I never expected you to jump up and convert to Catholicism; I only wanted you to see that the only reason you have a Bible is because of the infallible Magisterium of the Catholic Church which is infallible to this day . . . that’s what I wanted out of this conversation but it seems that you’re not even paying attention to it because “it’s a waste of time”.

Even my brother, who doesn’t have much of a love for the Catholic Church told me that the Bible is at least one thing he can thank the Catholic Church for. Even he understands that, regardless of the fact that he now believes her to be corrupt, idol worshipers.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

Genesius,
You are welcome! I am always glad to be of service to my fellow Christian brothers and sisters. The pope said that statement at the Feast of the Immaculate Conception a week and a half ago. That man is intelligent beyond belief!

Anyway, Mary’s Immaculate Conception is solely for and because of Christ (salvation, Eucharist, etc…). I think that is a point that some non-Catholics do not understand, refuse to accept or just ignore.

NON-CATHOLICS,
Imagine the hypothetical world that she was sinful (which, by definition, is separation from God). She probably would have decided to be selfish and not conform to God’s will and the Incarnation would not happen (nor would the Redemption of Man). If she did say yes, then the Word Made Flesh would take that sinful flesh and the Cross would be ineffective. This is why that hypothetical world does not exist.

Marian dogma are Christ-centered for a reason. Without its truths, THERE CAN NO SALVATION (and notice how I say “without its TRUTHS” and not “without these doctrine”). Hence, we need them. This is why we are defending Mary; because by defending Mary, we are defending Christ. This is why Mary has to do with everybody’s salvation whether or not they know it or like it.

BlueShadow,
I agree with you to an extent. Do you have to go to Mary for salvation? Nope. BUT, our reasons for trusting Her so much is because She brought Christ to the world. Why would She not do it even better in Heaven if we ask? She has at least something (even if it is minimally more than nothing) to do with your salvation though. She brought Christ into the world. Can we agree on that? Perhaps, our definitions of salvation are different. But this is why we believe we need Her help. As Mother of God, it would make sense that she bring us to Her Son OR vice-versa. You may not agree but does it at least make sense why we believe contrary to your belief?

RICHARD,
Again, we have already answered your questions of “what is needed for salvation that is only in Tradition?” Why do you keep asking if you are not going to believe us anyway? If you are not going to consider our answer, then stop asking. We have answered many times, but did not believe us. What is the point of asking something if you are going to disregard the answer?

 

[zach_dunn]

just for the record zach. richard was a Catholic before lapseing and joining the sda camp. didnt know if you knew this. so dont get frustrated. its more difficult debating a former Catholic who probably has been properly taught, than a raving fundamentalist who really doesnt know what they are talking about. this would be like a baptist, trying to reclaim me to their way of thinking. and i can state as a fact. that would never happen. your reasoning is solid. your message sure my brother. i just think its falling on deaf ears. i will pray for your efforts, i do however think that richard has done us a great service showing the errors in thinking, that beset an adherent to E.G. White, and i am sure, many have decided to stay put in the Catholic Church after seeing our debates with him. and maybe a few adventist have had their minds enlightened. these are those who will never post, but they do read. and they do have questions. this is why i do it. it has nothing to do with our dear friend Richard. Peace to you and yours.

I know what you mean! A lot of the times I carry on a conversation solely for the lurkers as well! I’m not getting frustrated with him, it just gets . . . annoying . . . when he refuses to “debate back” if you know what I mean. He doesn’t give me any counter points, simply states his own beliefs, but oh well! I’ll keep “fighting the good fight” hahaha.

 

[BlueShadow123]

Do you mean a sinner because you believe she was born with original sin? Or a sinner because she sinned somehow in her 14 years of living prior to PG with Christ.

Things I don’t know about… but am curious about…

Mary was obviously Jewish. Was she baptized at birth, for the purpose of washing away original sin? (I don’t know about baptism and the Jewish faith)…

Even if she was, I suppose it would have been done because I doubt her parents knew she was immaculate. Certainly they wouldn’t risk her soul. And there’s no indication that any person identifies her as the future mother of Christ.

Does Mary make a confession prior to conceiving Christ? I don’t remember that this is ever indicated.

So,if she was sinful by the age of 14, wouldn’t God require a confession of sins, or SOMETHING to purify her before allowing her to carry him in human form for 9 months?

We’re not allowed Communion without a confession. Why would a sinful woman be allowed to hold God within her sinful body for 9 months. Her sinful blood coursing through his divine/human body???

I think it’s odd to profess she was a sinner. Based on WHAT? Does it really make sense that God would place himself INSIDE a sinner? Unless of course, one thinks God was born with orginal sin… or at least KNOWS sin by way of living within sin.

BlueShadow… no, if it were ever to come to my ears by way of Christ’s direction that Mary was a sinner, I would NOT think less of her. If she’s good enough for God, she’s good enough for me… That’s FO-SHOW! But I would NEVER, look God in the eye, given the opportunity, and say… Yeah, you’re mama was a sinner… Nope… Pretty sure that would go over like a lead balloon.

And in the way we often ask What would Jesus do? I’m pretty sure he’d follow his own commandments and HONOR HIS MOTHER… and We should too, in our efforts to be Christ-like! And quite frankly, I think it bears false WITNESS to proclaim with authority that Mary was a sinner. It’s referring to her in the negative, and it’s not something anyone can prove.

And see, People think we pray the rosary in effort to PRAY and WORSHIP Mary. However, if you study the mysteries of the Rosary, they are in effect, Mary’s Brag-Book about her son. The Prayers are used to meditate on the many important events of CHRIST’S life. The devotion is to get closer to Christ through his mother.

Say/analyze the words in the Hail Mary: Hail Mary, Full of Grace. The Lord is with you. Blessed art though among women. And Blessed the fruit of they womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, PRAY FOR US SINNERS… Now and at the hour of our death…

Please ANYONE, point to the words of WORSHIP within this prayer? In the way you may ask a friend to pray for you… Does NOT the mother of GOD have more prayerful effect than any friend you might ask??? I should think so.

Our Priest told a cute joke today:

A Catholic man and a non-Catholic man were discussing Mary. The non-Catholic man says… I don’t understand you Catholics. You make this big deal about Mary. I think of her as a mother, much like my own. The Catholic man says… you know? I don’t know if the two mothers are alike… But I do KNOW… the two sons are VERY DIFFERENT…

Anyhow… as I said. Mary does have to do with your ABILITY to be Saved. Without her consent to carry Christ to Human term… There would not have been a human/God to die for our sins. We know that our salvation, our ability to be saved rests on Christ coming to earth in form of a human, and dieing for our sins. He needed a mother. And somehow, I doubt that just any old woman would do. Would YOU select someone randomly for and extremely important job? Or would you select someone very qualified? Why would God not select with a more keen eye than you?

Whether or not you make it to heaven has fully to do with how you live your life. The choices you freely make. That’s already been established. It’s not really between you and Jesus… so much as how well you follow Jesus’ word. And how well you show him that you love him until the end of time. But you already express that…

Obviously we disagree in the ways that we can show him. I myself and completely on board with showing Christ my love by showing him in one way among many that I too honor his mother, and her sacrafices, by praying words expressing honorable words towards her, in order to get closer to Christ…

Well I’m glad that your opinion on her would not change. And that is exactly what im talking about. Meaning it doesn’t matter if she is or isnt a sinner, because she will always be held high.

As for whorshipping mary, I hope you’re not talking about me, because countless times I have said that it is not worship, but just prayer. There is a difference. So if you’re talking to somebody else, thats one thing, but it better not have been me.

 

[zach_dunn]

Ok

:banghead: Ok? So there is nothing you have to say to it? There’s no counter point(s) you can make? It would seem you have been “defeated”, why can’t you make a counter point?