Not Convinced.....

[Richard_Kastner]

In order to clarify and to find out exactly what you meant by this post

:
Originally Posted by KathleenGee
Richard,

The whole problem revolves in how the Word of God is implemented. And who is going to do that and how is it going to be done?

leaving people to their own…look at the examples given us in the Epistles of the unruliness and misunderstanding and how the people repeatedly had to be taught, the faith clarified…it is human nature.

I asked

How do you think the word of God should be implemented and who do you think should “implement” it. I would ask “how is it going to be done?” but thats the same question as the first one.

Instead of clarifying what you meant by

The whole problem revolves in how the Word of God is implemented.

You came back with this.

First of all, Richard,…how doe one define worship…Is it something you create or is it something that God dictates?

How is Christian worship compared to Jewish worship?

And in the structure of worship, how do you set it up? Do you think it is something you set up? How would you then set up a worship after Pentecost?

What would you do if there were influential people that you know are deliberately or mistakenly not accepting your good intentions, and they are getting people to believe in concepts about Christ that you know are wrong?

So how do you know you are wrong? People did not always believe Christ is God, Christ is Man? Do you? How would you go about correcting errors? Would you do it by yourself? Who would check you to make sure you know what you are doing…

We all have our blind spots…so how do you know in your creation of a church, your implementation of it now being an official churcn …where would you even get the official and recognizable and acceptance that you are the person to have the authority?

How about all the commandments…what should you do if the faith is spreading into other regions of cultures and peoples…do you think you understand their language enough…what should you do if they are not understanding you or use the same words but for different things? So then what would you do to make sure the same message of Jesus is transmitted to peoples outside your orbit??

So on and so forth…

What would you do?

Instead of clarity you ask a aplethora of questions that don’t appear to have any cohesion and I find to be quite pointless. Do you have something specific you want to discuss?

If not I think my time on this thead has expired and I believe that I’ll be movin on.

 

[benidict]

In order to clarify and to find out exactly what you meant by this post

I asked

Instead of clarifying what you meant by

You came back with this.

Instead of clarity you ask a aplethora of questions that don’t appear to have any cohesion and I find to be quite pointless. Do you have something specific you want to discuss?

If not I think my time on this thead has expired and I believe that I’ll be movin on.

:coffeeread: i rest my case Kathleen. chirp chirp chirp chirp

 

[pablope]

I would like to answer this one (although, I’m sure that Richard already knows the answer). It is going to be implemented, or done, the exact way that is has because that is the way God has implemented it through Christ Himself…by establishing and guiding the Catholic Church (which is the ancient 1st century Church) as He promised He would through the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Christ founded the Church when He gave St. Peter the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven (Mt. 16). The Apostles clearly had been given authority to interpret to, and teach the masses all that Christ taught them. As has already been mentioned in this thread…not ALL that Jesus did is recorded in the Sacred Scriptures. So what does that leave? The teaching authority of the Magisterium…the Bishops and priests in union with the head bishop of Rome (the “pope” if you will)…bishops that can all trace their ordination back to one of the original Apostles.

How do you think it should be done or implemented?

And may I add additional points…

From the Apostles, we have a sacramental view of christian life, a focus on the Eucharist, about being holy centered on prayer and worship of the Blessed Sacrament, of talking to the Lord, to experience a mystical communion with Jesus during the Mass, the absolution of sins…that allows us to grow in grace and union with Christ…to grow from a primary state of grace to a more unitive state with Christ.

just my 2cents worth…

 

[KathleenGee]

OK, Richard. How did your SDA church start? Who were they? How did they form it?

I think there are some of the same aspects of starting a church as ours. You have guidelines, creed, and these were done by people.

Bottom line, if you are going to believe in the Bible, to have belief, you have a shared experience with other brethren…and that requires a separate discipline that creates and defines your denomination…meaning your elders and the processing of running a church.

I can sit here and shoot off bible quote to bible quote with you. I can go ahead and render a page of an excert let’s say, from the Gospel of St. John. But I won’t.

The Sacred Scriptures are multi-layered…there are those that are indeed literal, and there are those that are dual, there are those that are multi-layered, and then there are those that are hermeneutical that draw from the Old Testament and are illuminated by the Holy Spirit that give the full meaning of Christ’s words.

But I don’t because there are those who totally condemn the Catholic Church, so no matter what I or other say, it will go nowhere if you do believe that we are apostate.

The Bible is so holy to me, it is so life giving and reforming, that I simply refuse to use the Sacred Word of God for something it was not intended. That is because the Sacred Word of God is the Incarnate Word of God Who is Jesus Christ. I do not want to abuse Christ using the Bible.

New congregations, churches, denominations, ecclesials commmunities are started because of a certain take on a part of the Bible.

Catholicism looks at the whole context of the Sacred Scriptures as a gathering of people in Salvation History…it is about a living relationship with God in community, a common faith now carried from our Jewish heritage for over 5,000 years.

When we go to Mass, when we hear the Old Testament, we are witness to a great event of the people of faith in Judaism, and their event is now shared by us…and we continue in faith with them.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God. Jesus Christ is at the heart of catechesis.

Handle with care! The Word of God is not to be used shooting off bible quotes like a machine gun.

 

[rikkk1958]

OK, Richard. How did your SDA church start? Who were they? How did they form it?

I think there are some of the same aspects of starting a church as ours. You have guidelines, creed, and these were done by people.

Bottom line, if you are going to believe in the Bible, to have belief, you have a shared experience with other brethren…and that requires a separate discipline that creates and defines your denomination…meaning your elders and the processing of running a church.

I can sit here and shoot off bible quote to bible quote with you. I can go ahead and render a page of an excert let’s say, from the Gospel of St. John. But I won’t.

The Sacred Scriptures are multi-layered…there are those that are indeed literal, and there are those that are dual, there are those that are multi-layered, and then there are those that are hermeneutical that draw from the Old Testament and are illuminated by the Holy Spirit that give the full meaning of Christ’s words.

But I don’t because there are those who totally condemn the Catholic Church, so no matter what I or other say, it will go nowhere if you do believe that we are apostate.

The Bible is so holy to me, it is so life giving and reforming, that I simply refuse to use the Sacred Word of God for something it was not intended. That is because the Sacred Word of God is the Incarnate Word of God Who is Jesus Christ. I do not want to abuse Christ using the Bible.

New congregations, churches, denominations, ecclesials commmunities are started because of a certain take on a part of the Bible.

Catholicism looks at the whole context of the Sacred Scriptures as a gathering of people in Salvation History…it is about a living relationship with God in community, a common faith now carried from our Jewish heritage for over 5,000 years.

When we go to Mass, when we hear the Old Testament, we are witness to a great event of the people of faith in Judaism, and their event is now shared by us…and we continue in faith with them.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God. Jesus Christ is at the heart of catechesis.

Handle with care! The Word of God is not to be used shooting off bible quotes like a machine gun.

Amen. . see what I mean, it needs wisdom to understand, not only did Kathleen understand, she obeys and follows what the Church is all about. The key word is also “unity”. How can we be united when everyday another “church” spring up just because they thought they have the best understanding? Richard may believe that SDA is the true Church but what is more righteous than to be one in a true Catholic Church which is the Church the NT tells us about?

 

[KathleenGee]

The Bible took many, many years and many many people together, reflecting, studying in great depth to discern which books would nurture the Church for Public Revelation vs.

…Private Revelation…other books that were still divinely inspired but less so, not edifying to the faith of the people of the Church.

Books considered private revelation but still divinely inspired, such as the Gospel of St. Thomas do not support the fullness of truth in faith – in its universal dimensions –

Meaning, Christ came to die for all peoples of all races, cultures, creeds. So what is in the Bible for public revelation must address the basic human condition of all people, those who existed in the past, all those who live today, and all those who will come in the future until the end of the world, no matter their race, their languages, their own histories.

Christ came for all people and the Bible must be accurately translated in the wholeness of Salvation History from the Old Testament to the New Testament to the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, the beginning of the Church where the Word of God is constantly being interpreted by the Power of the Holy Spirit in souls consecrated in truth and Spirit, set aside by Jesus Christ for the salvation and nurturance of His people – us.

The Lord never left us as orphans. The Lord never left us to fend for ourselves, or to spend alot of time trying to figure out the phrases or wording. Because as Jesus Himself is the Word of God, and we are sheep, and Jesus does not want us to be without a shepherd, He gave us His Ministers of the Blood, those authentic consecrated souls, truly chosen and called by Him for us.

Every teaching I have ever heard in my entire life in the context of the universal, apostolic faith has always been perfectly balanced and totally in line with living out faith in every day life. There never have been dead ends, or incongruencies, or contradictions in living out the Lord’s teachings. The best place to learn the Bible is at Catholic Mass…and then the Word of God you hear becomes His Sacred Body and Blood, and then not only have you listened to the Word of God, you have consumed the Word of God and your body and blood are now nourished by Him.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

I would like to answer this one (although, I’m sure that Richard already knows the answer). It is going to be implemented, or done, the exact way that is has because that is the way God has implemented it through Christ Himself…by establishing and guiding the Catholic Church (which is the ancient 1st century Church) as He promised He would through the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Christ founded the Church when He gave St. Peter the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven (Mt. 16). The Apostles clearly had been given authority to interpret to, and teach the masses all that Christ taught them. As has already been mentioned in this thread…not ALL that Jesus did is recorded in the Sacred Scriptures. So what does that leave? The teaching authority of the Magisterium…the Bishops and priests in union with the head bishop of Rome (the “pope” if you will)…bishops that can all trace their ordination back to one of the original Apostles.

How do you think it should be done or implemented?

You seem to think that Jesus came to establish the CC. It seems rather incredible that you volunteer to answer a post like this and you make no mention of salvation. Well, to each his own. This is how I think the word of God should be implemented.

Matt.28
18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

 

[Genesius]

You seem to think that Jesus came to establish the CC. It seems rather incredible that you volunteer to answer a post like this and you make no mention of salvation. Well, to each his own. This is how I think the word of God should be implemented.

Matt.28
18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

So the Word of God should only be implemented using only three verses out of the entire Bible?

Even so, let’s consider this one passage. “Teaching them to observe ALL things…I have commanded you.” That alone would seem to entail more than just these three verses. Secondly, as has been established with many, many other posts, obviously not ALL those things are in the Bible, as all the books in the world could not contain them (see the end of John’s gospel since you like verse-hopping).

But again, if YOU think that’s how it should be implemented, anything else would probably go against your conscience, so have at it. I don’t think anyone here would want you to act against your conscience, and I really mean that. Meanwhile, I really do wish you a wonderful Christmas.

 

[Genesius]

rikkk, thank you for post #391. I think sometimes it’s easy to lose focus on what’s really important in these forums, human interaction. Again…treating each other with dignity and respect, in spite of our differences. Charity. Respect. Those are the key terms we should remember.

And, you also have a blessed Christmas. Godbless all (sorry, didn’t mean to get all Dickens on everyone…LOL)

 

[Richard_Kastner]

So the Word of God should only be implemented using only three verses out of the entire Bible?

Even so, let’s consider this one passage. “Teaching them to observe ALL things…I have commanded you.” That alone would seem to entail more than just these three verses.

All things that He commanded are obviously not in these three verses, but this is an instruction in how Jesus would like us to impement His words, but you knew that didn’t you?

Secondly, as has been established with many, many other posts, obviously not ALL those things are in the Bible, as all the books in the world could not contain them (see the end of John’s gospel since you like verse-hopping).

All the things that Jesus did are not in the bible, that’s true enough, but all the information that we need for our salvation is.
All the things that Jesus wants us to teach (matheteuo, make disciples) and teach (didasko, instruct) the world are in the bible.

But again, if YOU think that’s how it should be implemented, anything else would probably go against your conscience, so have at it. I don’t think anyone here would want you to act against your conscience, and I really mean that. Meanwhile, I really do wish you a wonderful Christmas.

Are YOU saying this isn’t the way we should implement the word of God? It seems to me that Jesus does.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

OK, Richard. How did your SDA church start? Who were they? How did they form it?

I think there are some of the same aspects of starting a church as ours. You have guidelines, creed, and these were done by people.

Bottom line, if you are going to believe in the Bible, to have belief, you have a shared experience with other brethren…and that requires a separate discipline that creates and defines your denomination…meaning your elders and the processing of running a church.

I can sit here and shoot off bible quote to bible quote with you. I can go ahead and render a page of an excert let’s say, from the Gospel of St. John. But I won’t.

The Sacred Scriptures are multi-layered…there are those that are indeed literal, and there are those that are dual, there are those that are multi-layered, and then there are those that are hermeneutical that draw from the Old Testament and are illuminated by the Holy Spirit that give the full meaning of Christ’s words.

But I don’t because there are those who totally condemn the Catholic Church, so no matter what I or other say, it will go nowhere if you do believe that we are apostate.

The Bible is so holy to me, it is so life giving and reforming, that I simply refuse to use the Sacred Word of God for something it was not intended. That is because the Sacred Word of God is the Incarnate Word of God Who is Jesus Christ. I do not want to abuse Christ using the Bible.

New congregations, churches, denominations, ecclesials commmunities are started because of a certain take on a part of the Bible.

Catholicism looks at the whole context of the Sacred Scriptures as a gathering of people in Salvation History…it is about a living relationship with God in community, a common faith now carried from our Jewish heritage for over 5,000 years.

When we go to Mass, when we hear the Old Testament, we are witness to a great event of the people of faith in Judaism, and their event is now shared by us…and we continue in faith with them.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God. Jesus Christ is at the heart of catechesis.

Handle with care! The Word of God is not to be used shooting off bible quotes like a machine gun.

Ok, I guess you don’t want to discuss anything, Have a Merry Christmas Kathleen.

 

[Mark01]

I have been following this thread and it seems to keep coming back to the issue of “sola scriptura”, which has been expressed as matter of interpretation and not a defined doctrine.

As a Catholic I can make the statement " all that is necessary for my salvation is found in the Bible" and it would be a true statement, but that does not mean I could say that the doctrine of sola scriptura is true because in order for it to be true I would have to be able to use the Bible with no other source of information to authenticate it, which is impossible to do. Seems to be a paradox doesn’t it?

I do believe that all that is neccessary for my salvation is contained in the Bible and I rely on Sacred Tradition to answer my questions. I also have the assurance of my Lord Jesus Christ that He would leave a visible and material means to understand that knowledge contained in the Bible and Sacred Tradition where I would be incapable of doing so in error. It comes down to free will, which is a gift from God, to make a reasoned and faith based choice to follow the guidance that Jesus promised.

That promised means would have to have existed from the moment Jesus returned to heaven, it would have to have the physical presence of Jesus, it would have to be able to provide guidance with Jesus’ authority, it would have to be visible and will be here on earth until His return.

That’s why I’m Catholic

Merry Christmas and Blessings to all

 

[benidict]

Ok, I guess you don’t want to discuss anything, Have a Merry Christmas Kathleen.

:hypno: you have got to be kidding me…

 

[Richard_Kastner]

:hypno: you have got to be kidding me…

No, I really do wish Kathleen a Merry Christmas. And Merry Christmas to you too Ben.

 

[benidict]

No, I really do wish Kathleen a Merry Christmas. And Merry Christmas to you too Ben.

and a very Merry and blessed Christmas to you too Richard im just astounded is all. your very intelligent, and you can engage me on some tough topics. but Kathleen is a real Scholar. i think these are very good questions she is asking. are you telling me, you cannot engage her? i just am finding this hard to believe. she shows me, just how much i really have to learn. i am quite frankly, humbled by the scope of her knowledge and thank God for her insights. i think she would be much better for someone of your caliber to debate, than little ol me. i couldnt hold a candle to her. and i dont know too many who could. and they are far more educated than i. Peace

 

[Richard_Kastner]

and a very Merry and blessed Christmas to you too Richard im just astounded is all. your very intelligent, and you can engage me on some tough topics. but Kathleen is a real Scholar. i think these are very good questions she is asking. are you telling me, you cannot engage her? i just am finding this hard to believe. she shows me, just how much i really have to learn. i am quite frankly, humbled by the scope of her knowledge and thank God for her insights. i think she would be much better for someone of your caliber to debate, than little ol me. i couldnt hold a candle to her. and i dont know too many who could. and they are far more educated than i. Peace

Ben, take a look at this post.

Originally Posted by KathleenGee
OK, Richard. How did your SDA church start? Who were they? How did they form it?

I think there are some of the same aspects of starting a church as ours. You have guidelines, creed, and these were done by people.

Bottom line, if you are going to believe in the Bible, to have belief, you have a shared experience with other brethren…and that requires a separate discipline that creates and defines your denomination…meaning your elders and the processing of running a church.

I can sit here and shoot off bible quote to bible quote with you. I can go ahead and render a page of an excert let’s say, from the Gospel of St. John. But I won’t.

The Sacred Scriptures are multi-layered…there are those that are indeed literal, and there are those that are dual, there are those that are multi-layered, and then there are those that are hermeneutical that draw from the Old Testament and are illuminated by the Holy Spirit that give the full meaning of Christ’s words.

But I don’t because there are those who totally condemn the Catholic Church, so no matter what I or other say, it will go nowhere if you do believe that we are apostate.

The Bible is so holy to me, it is so life giving and reforming, that I simply refuse to use the Sacred Word of God for something it was not intended. That is because the Sacred Word of God is the Incarnate Word of God Who is Jesus Christ. I do not want to abuse Christ using the Bible.

New congregations, churches, denominations, ecclesials commmunities are started because of a certain take on a part of the Bible.

Catholicism looks at the whole context of the Sacred Scriptures as a gathering of people in Salvation History…it is about a living relationship with God in community, a common faith now carried from our Jewish heritage for over 5,000 years.

When we go to Mass, when we hear the Old Testament, we are witness to a great event of the people of faith in Judaism, and their event is now shared by us…and we continue in faith with them.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God. Jesus Christ is at the heart of catechesis.

Handle with care! The Word of God is not to be used shooting off bible quotes like a machine gun.

The only questions she asks is.

“OK, Richard. How did your SDA church start? Who were they? How did they form it?”

These questions are off topic and I am just not interested in engaging in a discussion of how my church was founded. The rest of her post is a sermon and I really don’t see that she wants to discuss any of it.

 

[Deconi]

Your reasoning is faulty here ben. God gives life and God can take it away. The fact that He told the Isrealits to kill the people of Jerico was because He saw that if they were to live His plan of salvation in His chosen people would be in jepordy.

Totally ERRONEOUS!
God doesn’t ‘kill’ people to effect His plan!

Interpretations like yours above is one of the reasons why ‘Bible alone’ is insufficient for your salvation!

Are you saying there are things in your tradition that are not taught in the bible but are necessary for our salvation.

YES, plenty!

…Or are you saying the oral traditions teach the same things as the bible?

No! Oral tradition teaches MORE than what is in Scriptures because they confirm and bear witness to each other! Scripture verifies the Oral Traditions and vice versa, in some cases the oral defines what is in Scriptures.

MERRY CHRISTMAS AND A HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Totally ERRONEOUS!
God doesn’t ‘kill’ people to effect His plan!

Interpretations like yours above is one of the reasons why ‘Bible alone’ is insufficient for your salvation!

You ever hear of Noah?

YES, plenty!

What are they?

No! Oral tradition teaches MORE than what is in Scriptures because they confirm and bear witness to each other! Scripture verifies the Oral Traditions and vice versa, in some cases the oral defines what is in Scriptures.

How does oral tradition teach MORE than the scriptures by merely bearing witness to them?

 

[benidict]

First of all, Richard,…how doe one define worship…Is it something you create or is it something that God dictates?

How is Christian worship compared to Jewish worship?

And in the structure of worship, how do you set it up? Do you think it is something you set up? How would you then set up a worship after Pentecost?

What would you do if there were influential people that you know are deliberately or mistakenly not accepting your good intentions, and they are getting people to believe in concepts about Christ that you know are wrong?

So how do you know you are wrong? People did not always believe Christ is God, Christ is Man? Do you? How would you go about correcting errors? Would you do it by yourself? Who would check you to make sure you know what you are doing…

We all have our blind spots…so how do you know in your creation of a church, your implementation of it now being an official churcn …where would you even get the official and recognizable and acceptance that you are the person to have the authority?

How about all the commandments…what should you do if the faith is spreading into other regions of cultures and peoples…do you think you understand their language enough…what should you do if they are not understanding you or use the same words but for different things? So then what would you do to make sure the same message of Jesus is transmitted to peoples outside your orbit??

So on and so forth…

What would you do?

sorry Richard. i should have clarified. this is the post i was refering to. why are you having trouble, engaging Kathleen, on these very important questions. i think they show the complex nature of starting a Church, defining doctrine, dealing with different cultures in spreading your faith defining who Christ was, etc. i really cannot word it as well as she did here. and i am very sure Kathleen already knows the similarities of Jewish, and Catholic worship. they are very close. just pick up a Roman Missal, and pick up a Hebrew prayer book, and compare. there, i helped you out a little. if anything, the worship found in the Catholic Church, is the closest thing we have to temple Judaism. its beautiful. do you think you can engage Kathleen, not me, on the questions she raises above. and also, it would be interesting to have your take, on the start of the SDA movement, how it started, and why you think it is the true faith. and by what authority, the founders of the SDA began their church. somehow, i dont think i phrased the last part of my question right. aw well, its late, and i had a fairly long day. dealing with young Muslims, who are hungry, and visiting with them, is kinda tireing. they got some good food and drinks from us though…lol! and their english was not half bad. peace

 

[Richard_Kastner]

sorry Richard. i should have clarified. this is the post i was refering to. why are you having trouble, engaging Kathleen, on these very important questions. i think they show the complex nature of starting a Church, defining doctrine, dealing with different cultures in spreading your faith defining who Christ was, etc. i really cannot word it as well as she did here. and i am very sure Kathleen already knows the similarities of Jewish, and Catholic worship. they are very close. just pick up a Roman Missal, and pick up a Hebrew prayer book, and compare. there, i helped you out a little. if anything, the worship found in the Catholic Church, is the closest thing we have to temple Judaism. its beautiful. do you think you can engage Kathleen, not me, on the questions she raises above. and also, it would be interesting to have your take, on the start of the SDA movement, how it started, and why you think it is the true faith. and by what authority, the founders of the SDA began their church. somehow, i dont think i phrased the last part of my question right. aw well, its late, and i had a fairly long day. dealing with young Muslims, who are hungry, and visiting with them, is kinda tireing. they got some good food and drinks from us though…lol! and their english was not half bad. peace

Didn’t you read my last post ben the only questions Kathleen asks are about the origin of the SDA church. These questions are off topic and the other things she asks no questions about? Keep up the good work with the young. Again Merry Christmas