Not Convinced.....

[pablope]

You seem to think that Jesus came to establish the CC. I
20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

You seem to think that Jesus came to establish the CC.

Why does this seem hard for you to see, Richard? Or is it because you refuse to see? The NT authors of your beloved Bible were all Catholics, the Apostles were all catholics, their successors were all catholics, the very first converts from the Jews and Gentiles and the early church was very much Catholic. If you do an objective study, you will find out that what was in the early church is very much in the CC today. Even the Reformers were Catholics before they deviated from Catholicism and got excommunicated.

Truth, when faced with it, is hard to accept, and it does take a lot of humility to accept the truth, isn’t it?

 

[pablope]

You ever hear of Noah?

What are they?

How does oral tradition teach MORE than the scriptures by merely bearing witness to them?

From post 395…which I am repeating here…

From the Apostles, we learned to have a sacramental view of christian life, a focus on the Eucharist, about being holy centered on prayer and worship of the Blessed Sacrament, of talking to the Lord, to experience a mystical communion with Jesus during the Mass, the absolution of sins…that allows us to grow in grace and union with Christ…to grow from a primary state of grace to a more unitive state with Christ.

Merry Christmas, Richard…

 

[Genesius]

Richard wrote: “All things that He commanded are obviously not in these three verses, but this is an instruction in how Jesus would like us to impement His words, but you knew that didn’t you?”

Response: How do you “impement” words? LOL. Just kidding. Actually, Richard I don’t mean to be cynical with you. It’s just so tempting. You’ll have to forgive me. Sometimes I get in these ornery moods. But seriously, if you say this is AN instruction on how Jesus would like His APOSTLES to implement His words, I would agree. Jesus did not say these things to a common crowd, or to you and me, but to a select group that He chose to be His Apostles. Certainly, they conveyed those truths to others, but we need to remember the ORIGINAL context.

Richard wrote: “All the things that Jesus did are not in the bible, that’s true enough, but all the information that we need for our salvation is.
All the things that Jesus wants us to teach (matheteuo, make disciples) and teach (didasko, instruct) the world are in the bible.”

Response: First, you are making an assumption in the second half of your first sentence. Not saying it’s not true, but you just kind of throw it out there without supporting it. Secondly, the two sentences are distinct from each other. You are actually mentioning three distinct things; 1. What Jesus did, 2. All the info we need for salvation, and 3. All that Jesus wants to be taught. Third, I would substitute US with The Apostles and their successors. You are making the same mistake all Protestants make…treating the Bible like a personal handbook which it was never intended for. It was intended to be a guide for the leaders of the Church.

**Richard wrote: “**Are YOU saying this isn’t the way we should implement the word of God? It seems to me that Jesus does.”

**Response: **Okay, now I have to respond to two or three things. First, yes, of course Jesus intended for the Apostles to go forth and preach the gospel, baptizing people with the trinitarian formula, and teaching them to observe ALL that He had taught them. There, I answered the question in general. Now, secondly, I would need to know what you mean by “word of God”. Are you referring ONLY to the WRITTEN Word of God, or the ORAL Word of God, or the Logos, the LIVING Word of God? I suspect you only mean the written. So I will respond with that presumption. If I’m wrong about my presumption then you can charitably correct me. You cannot use this particular passage to prove that Jesus intended to implement the Bible this way…no. His ORAL instruction…yes.

And again, the “we” thing. Who is “we”? If you mean ALL Christians, I would say to some degree we all have an obligation to spread the gospel. If you mean Jesus intended for each individual Christian to share the contents of the Bible to the world with their own private interpretation, I would say absolutely not!. It’s up to the Catholic Church, the Church Christ intended as has been demonstrated by many posts here, to share salvation with it’s members and consequently with the world.

Anyway, that’s my take. Hey, maybe I should start my own church!! Yeah!! Using my own take…or not (sorry, couldn’t resist…LOL…actually I could, I just chose not to…now I’ll have to confess to a priest…LOL).

Btw, again…have a very Merry Christmas.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Response: How do you “impement” words? LOL. Just kidding. Actually, Richard I don’t mean to be cynical with you. It’s just so tempting. You’ll have to forgive me. Sometimes I get in these ornery moods. But seriously, if you say this is AN instruction on how Jesus would like His APOSTLES to implement His words, I would agree. Jesus did not say these things to a common crowd, or to you and me, but to a select group that He chose to be His Apostles. Certainly, they conveyed those truths to others, but we need to remember the ORIGINAL context.

I have seen this take espoused by many Catholics on these threads over the years and it is just wrong. In the great commission,.Jesus is talking to EVERY BELIEVER IN THE WORLD.
Matt.13
36Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

Richard wrote: “All the things that Jesus did are not in the bible, that’s true enough, but all the information that we need for our salvation is.
All the things that Jesus wants us to teach (matheteuo, make disciples) and teach (didasko, instruct) the world are in the bible.”

Response: First, you are making an assumption in the second half of your first sentence. Not saying it’s not true, but you just kind of throw it out there without supporting it.

Well, if your not saying it’s not true then what’s the problem. Are you saying that some of the information we need for our salvation is missing from the bible?

Secondly, the two sentences are distinct from each other. You are actually mentioning three distinct things;

Of coarse they’re distinct from one another, If they weren’t they would only be one sentence.

1. What Jesus did, 2. All the info we need for salvation, and 3. All that Jesus wants to be taught. Third, I would substitute US with The Apostles and their successors. You are making the same mistake all Protestants make…treating the Bible like a personal handbook which it was never intended for. It was intended to be a guide for the leaders of the Church.

Again wrong thinking. The bible is a hand book to show each and every one of us how to live righteous lives.

**Richard wrote: “**Are YOU saying this isn’t the way we should implement the word of God? It seems to me that Jesus does.”

**Response: **Okay, now I have to respond to two or three things. First, yes, of course Jesus intended for the Apostles to go forth and preach the gospel, baptizing people with the trinitarian formula, and teaching them to observe ALL that He had taught them. There, I answered the question in general. Now, secondly, I would need to know what you mean by “word of God”. Are you referring ONLY to the WRITTEN Word of God, or the ORAL Word of God, or the Logos, the LIVING Word of God? I suspect you only mean the written. So I will respond with that presumption. If I’m wrong about my presumption then you can charitably correct me. You cannot use this particular passage to prove that Jesus intended to implement the Bible this way…no. His ORAL instruction…yes.

God’s plan of salvation in Jesus is spelled out in the bible, and that is what you Genesius and I Richard are directed by Jesus to tell the world. Again are you saying there is something that Jesus commanded us to tell the world that is not in the bible? And if He did what is it?

And again, the “we” thing. Who is “we”? If you mean ALL Christians, I would say to some degree we all have an obligation to spread the gospel. If you mean Jesus intended for each individual Christian to share the contents of the Bible to the world with their own private interpretation, I would say absolutely not!. It’s up to the Catholic Church, the Church Christ intended as has been demonstrated by many posts here, to share salvation with it’s members and consequently with the world.

What I mean is exactly what Jesus says in the Great commission.
Matt.28
20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:

Btw, again…have a very Merry Christmas.

Merry Christmas to you Genesius

 

[benidict]

Didn’t you read my last post ben the only questions Kathleen asks are about the origin of the SDA church. These questions are off topic and the other things she asks no questions about? Keep up the good work with the young. Again Merry Christmas

very well Richard, i see you will not rise to the challenge of the other questions she asked. i will start a thread on the origin of the SDA church, so we can discuss this. my hope is we will all learn something, and you can have a solid platform to share your views. since i will be the op. you will not have to worry about anything being off topic. maybe, if we are fortunate, other Adventist will join us. oh yes, and thank you for your support, in our work in trying to win the hearts and minds of young Muslims. its a work in progress for all our futures. Peace

 

[KathleenGee]

We had our Christmas family gathering the night before last…

My grown children and extended family, also young adults, wanted me to go out in the van at 11:30 pm to wish everyone downtown a Merry Christmas…As I missed them so much, a stay at a home mom with terrible withdrawals of not having my kids around to the point my oldest told me my emails and phone calls made her felt stalked…I went with them.

We were going to go down town, and they forewarned me, the windows were to be down and they were going to play ‘Techno Music’…???..

So I went.

So we took off. We drove 5 blocks along the curving hillside, and shortly realized the van definitely needs new struts. We stopped and had to change seats. I started freaking out with her fast turns and told her to please go slow, no freeway and go very slow on the turns. Her young husband sat next to her laughed, and away we went.

Well I am going to apply for social security next week. But I must admit the bouncy, heavy beat music watching how the van was turning at the bends, help lift my mind off of a future $1000 fix.

So we went down town and the van was repeatedly taken all over the area, repeatedly turning, the music repeatedly making the same beat, the songs being repeated over and over, the music so loud I couldn’t hear any strut strain, the kids applauding, yelling, Merry Christmas!!!..this was no 30 minute trip…it turned out to be pretty draining.

We didn’t get back until after 12:30 am By 1 am…I really was wanting them to leave. They finally did a half hour later. I had to go to work and did 3 clients, out for 11 hours. Didn’t get to sleep until 10:30 pm and had a strange dream about a lady getting a rabbit for a gift and having to repeatedly pull the rabbit and its front fangs off her pet cat’s neck.

So with all that behind me, I see a good benefit in celebrating Christmas the way the Orthodox do…the presents done earlier…so one can be in a more spiritual mood for Christmas.

Frankly, Richard, I was in no mood to debate. Is there anything I could have said that you would acknowledge…??? Any thing??? … Any starting point?

My real point was to get you to think outside the script. Benedict has offered to start a new thread on churches’ origins.

I tend to look at founders and their intent and why all these different churches claiming to get the Script right started within the past 500 years or so…and what in the world was happening before then…

The other day I just got my history book my pastor recommended…

So my response, given in a passive aggressive way was…Can you, Richard, EVER be convinced??? Jesus did say He makes life new…it goes for today as well…

Can you allow your mind to be renewed by Jesus Christ??? Can you ever be convinced of that?

So for now, I do wish you Richard a very merry Christmas!!

 

[Genesius]

Again…I’m not sure whatever became of the person who began this thread, but it seems that Richard took over in his stead. However, I think we can assume that just like Richard, the original poster really wasn’t looking to “be convinced”, but simply wanted to debate. Debating does have it’s good points. We certainly all get our minds working. But, again, if there is no point to the debating, it’s just all straw.

And so, as I have mentioned before, and I’m really going to try this time…LOL…I will attempt to cease this pointless debate. Nobody is moving. So, I just say Godbless you all anyway…

 

[benidict]

Again…I’m not sure whatever became of the person who began this thread, but it seems that Richard took over in his stead. However, I think we can assume that just like Richard, the original poster really wasn’t looking to “be convinced”, but simply wanted to debate. Debating does have it’s good points. We certainly all get our minds working. But, again, if there is no point to the debating, it’s just all straw.

And so, as I have mentioned before, and I’m really going to try this time…LOL…I will attempt to cease this pointless debate. Nobody is moving. So, I just say Godbless you all anyway…

my dear friend. i could really care less if Richard is convinced. this is for those that are all over the world, who read but never post. this is why i engage him. its not for his or my benefit. if i were emotionally involved in this, i would go nuts. im not. its no different, than when i am in an area, and i have some guy mean mugging me, and im getting ready to draw if i have to. i am empty. no anger, no fear, no nothing. this is spiritual warfare. there is definitely something else behind this. i am not going to lose my equanimity. one thing ive learned from the Jewish Mystics, and what i believe Christ taught as well, is that it doesnt matter if people curse you, or praise you. you should feel the same about both. i care for those, that may be looking into leaving Gods Church, to a movement such as this. i care for those that may be Adventist reading this, and looking for truth. i believe God is using us on a global scale for just this purpose. i dont believe our efforts are wasted, and we will not see the final results, until the Judgement seat of Christ. thank God for this wonderful tool, of the internet, and CAF. Merry Christmas and peace

 

[KathleenGee]

Merry Christmas to All…

I went to our vigil Mass and I was preparing to be doing both readings…providentially another young woman stepped forward for the first reading…and when she started I realized they were skipping the Vigil Mass and going into the Midnight Mass…so I looked over the 2nd reading for Midnight Mass…it was short and clear and it went well…

During the Eucharistic Liturgy and praying for all our fellow believers, and those who are not convinced of the Apostolic faith, I prayed for all of you. I saw a family with a Marine in uniform and another in his army uniform…and I prayed for you, Benedict, and all our military overseas and for all that you live and endure…

 

[benidict]

Merry Christmas to All…

I went to our vigil Mass and I was preparing to be doing both readings…providentially another young woman stepped forward for the first reading…and when she started I realized they were skipping the Vigil Mass and going into the Midnight Mass…so I looked over the 2nd reading for Midnight Mass…it was short and clear and it went well…

During the Eucharistic Liturgy and praying for all our fellow believers, and those who are not convinced of the Apostolic faith, I prayed for all of you. I saw a family with a Marine in uniform and another in his army uniform…and I prayed for you, Benedict, and all our military overseas and for all that you live and endure…

goodness Kathleen. you just brought a tear to a hardened old soldiers eye. thank you very much. and thank God for Godly Catholics everywhere, who live a life of prayer. Happy Birthday Dear Jesus, and Thank you Mary for saying Yes, to God. Peace

 

[Genesius]

I didn’t realize you were a soldier, benidict. I am praying for you also. I am a prior service Marine, though I was never in during combat…and a “remington raider” to boot…LOL.

But…to paraphrase a Marine motto into “Always faithful to God, Country, and [military in general]”, I wish you a Semper Fi Christ-Mass.

 

[Deconi]

QUOTE=Richard Kastner;7393172]
You ever hear of Noah?

The lesson in Noah is NOT that God kills those who do not comply, but rather that He will ALWAYS save those who ACTIVELY ACCEPT Him. Remember Noah didn’t ask God for anything and he could have just as easily been swept with the rest of humanity without ever hearing of or from, God.

There are volumes in that account that you miss due to the limitations of your…um…‘traditions.’

Unlike Noah, Elijah ASKED God to be saved from his own people who sought to kill him. But even there is a part of the lesson learnt from Noah; that God saves a ‘remnant’ from the ‘mass’ of His OWN chosen people!

What are they?

You are following several Catholic Traditions!..albeit, your tradition has limited yours.

Close your Bible and place it on the table. Beside it is a Catholic Bible and an Orthodox Bible. Also on there are the Torah; Koran; Book of Mormon; Buddha; Hinduism; etc.

Now choose WHICH Tradition you wish to follow!?

If you choose your Bible again, you’re following a portion of Catholic Tradition since the Catholic Bible was a result of Sacred Tradition which decided what books were to be included. That men remove or omit some books doesn’t disguise that fact nor distort which came first.

Christmas!
December 25th - Not in Scriptures, per se, but you and the globe acknowledge and follow a Tradition set forth by the Catholic Church to mark the arrival of The Son, God made flesh.

Easter!
Et cetera…et cetera.

How does oral tradition teach MORE than the scriptures by merely bearing witness to them?

Not ‘merely’ but ACTUAL. They bear witness to, and confirm, each other.

The structure or format of the Holy Mass has ‘developed’ through the first centuries and although ENTIRELY Scriptural, a layman has to look through Scriptures and the CCC to find the refs.

Before the Canon of Holy Writ was decided, the Mass format had already shaped itself into what has been passed down to us as continued from The Apostles! This is primarily because it was passed ORALLY and by example, by those desciples of the Apostles themselves, as they spread The Gospel throughout the first 300years. The three core aspects were already practiced; Scriptures, Offertory, Eucharist.

Before the Canon was decided, Catholics ACCEPTED and partook in The Eucharistic miracle at EVERY gathering (Mass) prior to St. John detailing his Gospel! The Scriptures confirmed an oral deposit and practice.

Bible alone.
The Bible alone CANNOT save you! An alien can buy one and disappear with it but although it’s contents are beneficial for his salvation, in and of itself, cannot save him because St Peter clearly warns against private interpretations of Scriptures.

 

[benidict]

I didn’t realize you were a soldier, benidict. I am praying for you also. I am a prior service Marine, though I was never in during combat…and a “remington raider” to boot…LOL.

But…to paraphrase a Marine motto into “Always faithful to God, Country, and [military in general]”, I wish you a Semper Fi Christ-Mass.

thank you and a Semper Fi Christ-Mass to you too, my brother. i love the Marine Core. im a combat M.P. so we get along very well. love the way you guys can shoot! one shot from one of these turkeys, and they are facing a wall, of your boys lead! you guys are the best. my drill sgt. was in fallujah with your guys. he says, any Army or Marines that talk smack about eachother, never have really seen anything. if i were younger i would have gone your way. plus i have too many tatoos…lol! Peace

 

[faithfully]

Benidict… Merry Christmas… One of my dearest friends was a Marine. I see you guys in uniform, and I tear up every time!!! May you be home with your family soon!

 

[benidict]

Benidict… Merry Christmas… One of my dearest friends was a Marine. I see you guys in uniform, and I tear up every time!!! May you be home with your family soon!

thank you faithfully. belated Merry Christmas to you too. i got to talk with a 2 star general yesterday at a dinner, so that was fun. he was pretty cool. i just cannot understand, why the quartet had a guitar, and never used it. i would have gladly taken it off their hands. lol! Peace

 

[LutheranDK]

Lately, I have been comparing and contrasting Catholic beliefs and Baptist beliefs. First off, I would like to begin with “sola scriptura”. I personally believe that if the Bible was not alone sufficient, than God would somewhere explicitly state it in scripture.

Ahem…sorry, isn’t that kind of a Catch-22?

 

[simeonhuff]

Hello everyone, I am back.

 

[PiousTemplar]

Hello everyone, I am back.

Bahaha, for some reason half the people on your thread are now banned! You may not get a response!

 

[simeonhuff]

Banned, what for?!

 

[Cavaradossi]

Really? You don’t think that this statement 1Jn.5:7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. says that there are three distinct persons in one God. If you don’t think that this explains the Trinity, there is no explaination that would satisfy you.

The part which I have bolded is known as the Comma Johanneum; it does not appear in the earliest manuscripts of I John and is likely a gloss which later was interpolated into the original text during medieval times. The Bible itself contains little direct evidence of the Trinity, only subtle references (which of course in no way undermines the doctrine of the Trinity, since neither the Catholics nor the Orthodox are bound by Scripture alone; that would be a problem unique to Protestants).