Not eating meat on Fridays

[revert_jen]

Who are the reparations being paid to?

God. Who else? I’m doing something I don’t enjoy for love of God. I’m not sure what other point there could be.

Just curious; are you a revert from some form of Calvinism?

Congratulations, all. I am very sorry I mentioned it. Good grief. I’m courting pride, I’m either not taking up my cross or I am voluntarily suffering pointlessly, and I am Calvinistic.

The history of ascetical practice in the Catholic Church goes much further back than the reformation. You’d think I’d said I was flagellating myself (which I certainly don’t, but BTW, was a practice engaged in by various saints), when all I’m doing is eating something I don’t like. It’s just a token for remembrance and reparation. But to answer your question, I attended various different protestant churches while I was away, but the most prevalent were Pentecostal, independant Bible, and yes, Presbyterian.

In any case, eating some fish is a lot less suffering than giving up milk and eggs and fats and so forth for the whole period of Lent. I can’t even begin to understand why people have made such a big deal out of it.

Can we get back to the subject of the thread now?

–Jen

 

[dixieagle]

Yes, in a very small way. Doing something that I don’t enjoy but that is nevertheless good for me is a penance I can perform in honor of Christ’s infinitely greater sacrifice, and in a tiny amount of reparation for my sins.

I don’t have the idea that I need to do it, just that I choose to do it. I am not in any way saying that others need to do it; I only offered it as an example. It’s not like it’s a huge sacrifice to eat some sort of food one doesn’t like. I’m not sure how it is that different from someone who really likes meat abstaining from it.

It’s very difficult to remember to offer up all of the suffering that comes on us involuntarily, especially those things that are ongoing. For me, it helps me to remember Christ’s sacrifice and to offer up a very small amount of suffering that I have chosen to take on. If I can manage to be proud about a tiny thing like eating fish 7 times in a year, I have so many problems that I need all the reparation I can get.

–Jen

Jen, I completely understand what you’re doing. For me, eating fish is penance, too (now, shrimp, scallops, and crab…another thing entirely!) You’ve likely whacked some time off purgatory!

My dear mother simply loathed and despised anything related to seafood, in any form; it also made her terribly ill. My dad, on the other hand, to this day, just loves seafood in any form. So, on Fridays, I can remember mother braving the seafood shoppe to pick up a quart of “steamers” (clams) for Dad, tossing them into the boiling water, and then exiting the room as quickly as possible, as she couldn’t tolerate the smell. Poor lady!

While Fridays were quite the penance for Mother (we had grilled cheese or spaghetti with plain tomato sauce), for Dad, there was never any penance in eating fish; he is such a good man that he finds other penances instead.

 

[dixieagle]

Where did you get the idea that you need to force yourself to eat something you don’t like? Are you intentionally trying to make yourself suffer?

In Christ
Joe

Ummm…have you looked up the definition of “penance”?

penance n. An act of self-mortification or devotion performed voluntarily to show sorrow for a sin or other wrongdoing.

Sounds as if Jen is doing exactly what we should be on penitential days.

 

[josephdaniel29]

Ummm…have you looked up the definition of “penance”?

penance n. An act of self-mortification or devotion performed voluntarily to show sorrow for a sin or other wrongdoing.

Sounds as if Jen is doing exactly what we should be on penitential days.

My friend if your fasting is causing you to suffer you are not doing it right. Where in the world do you get the idea that God wants us to invent sufferings for ourselves? Does our self-inflicted pain somehow please God?

In Christ
Joe

 

[dixieagle]

My friend if your fasting is causing you to suffer you are not doing it right. Where in the world do you get the idea that God wants us to invent sufferings for ourselves? Does our self-inflicted pain somehow please God?

In Christ
Joe

Are you being serious? Doing penance is supposed to cause some discomfort, otherwise it’s not penance.

 

[josephdaniel29]

Are you being serious? Doing penance is supposed to cause some discomfort, otherwise it’s not penance.

Of course I’m being serious. Quite frankly I’m shocked that you think it’s a good thing to inflict pain on yourself.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

God. Who else? I’m doing something I don’t enjoy for love of God. I’m not sure what other point there could be.

Congratulations, all. I am very sorry I mentioned it. Good grief. I’m courting pride, I’m either not taking up my cross or I am voluntarily suffering pointlessly, and I am Calvinistic.

The history of ascetical practice in the Catholic Church goes much further back than the reformation. You’d think I’d said I was flagellating myself (which I certainly don’t, but BTW, was a practice engaged in by various saints), when all I’m doing is eating something I don’t like. It’s just a token for remembrance and reparation. But to answer your question, I attended various different protestant churches while I was away, but the most prevalent were Pentecostal, independant Bible, and yes, Presbyterian.

In any case, eating some fish is a lot less suffering than giving up milk and eggs and fats and so forth for the whole period of Lent. I can’t even begin to understand why people have made such a big deal out of it.

Can we get back to the subject of the thread now?

–Jen

Don’t worry; there are those who will tell you you’re doing it wrong no matter what (kneel on jacks! don’t kneel on jacks! and ad infinitum).

I’m sure God knows what’s in your heart.

Usually I don’t eat meat Fridays because it’s an easy way—but there are occasions when I choose another penance. It’s allowed.

 

[revert_jen]

My friend if your fasting is causing you to suffer you are not doing it right. Where in the world do you get the idea that God wants us to invent sufferings for ourselves? Does our self-inflicted pain somehow please God?

If the point of fasting is not to cause yourself some discomfort, what exactly is the point? If it’s hard, according to you, it is not being done right, but if it’s not hard, according to me, there is no point at all. It’s like we’re on different planets.

–Jen

 

[revert_jen]

Usually I don’t eat meat Fridays because it’s an easy way—but there are occasions when I choose another penance. It’s allowed.

Another good reason for allowing people to select their own Friday penance that I forgot–you can choose to do something else if not eating meat is going to cause someone else (e.g. the hostess at a dinner party) a lot of trouble.

–Jen

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Another good reason for allowing people to select their own Friday penance that I forgot–you can choose to do something else if not eating meat is going to cause someone else (e.g. the hostess at a dinner party) a lot of trouble.

–Jen

You got it.

A (religious order) friend of mine once responded to my worries about ‘not praying right’ by saying: ‘If your child brought you a hand-picked bouquet of flowers that yet was not perfect, wouldn’t you love the bouquet and appreciate it?’

 

[dixieagle]

Of course I’m being serious. Quite frankly I’m shocked that you think it’s a good thing to inflict pain on yourself.

Eating fish = “inflicting pain on yourself”??? Come on.

 

[josephdaniel29]

Eating fish = “inflicting pain on yourself”??? Come on.

I’m not the one who is equating abstaining from meat on Fridays with penance, sacrifice and reparations.

 

[josephdaniel29]

If the point of fasting is not to cause yourself some discomfort, what exactly is the point? If it’s hard, according to you, it is not being done right, but if it’s not hard, according to me, there is no point at all. It’s like we’re on different planets.

–Jen

Jen I apologize for questioning your practices. It’s not an appropriate topic to question someone on, much less on a public forum. Please accept my apologies.

 

[dixieagle]

I’m not the one who is equating abstaining from meat on Fridays with penance, sacrifice and reparations.

Right…that would be the Church.

From the USCCB website: usccb.org/doctrine/penitential.shtml

Penitential Days

** Ash Wednesday—This day marks the beginning of the Lenten season. The imposition of ashes is an ancient penitential practice symbolizing our dependence upon God's mercy and forgiveness. Ash Wednesday is a day of fast and abstinence in the Church.

* Good Friday—Christ suffered and died for our salvation on Friday. On the Friday that we call "Good," the Church gathers to commemorate Jesus' Passion and death. Good Friday is a day of fast and abstinence. The Good Friday fast is the Paschal fast—a fast of anticipation and longing for the Passover of the Lord, which should continue, when possible, through Holy Saturday.

* Fridays During Lent—In the United States, **the tradition of abstaining from meat on each Friday during Lent is maintained.**

* Fridays Throughout the Year—In memory of Christ's suffering and death, the Church prescribes making each Friday throughout the year a penitential day. All of us are urged to prepare appropriately for that weekly Easter that comes with each Sunday.

Whether abstaining from meat when required, or performing the “penance” of eating fish, as a previous poster does, or giving up chocolate during Lent…it is all for the good of our souls.

I’m not sure whether you disagree with the idea of penance, or are just trying to stir things up. Whatever.

 

[josephdaniel29]

Right…that would be the Church.

From the USCCB website: usccb.org/doctrine/penitential.shtml

Penitential Days

** Ash Wednesday—This day marks the beginning of the Lenten season. The imposition of ashes is an ancient penitential practice symbolizing our dependence upon God's mercy and forgiveness. Ash Wednesday is a day of fast and abstinence in the Church.

* Good Friday—Christ suffered and died for our salvation on Friday. On the Friday that we call "Good," the Church gathers to commemorate Jesus' Passion and death. Good Friday is a day of fast and abstinence. The Good Friday fast is the Paschal fast—a fast of anticipation and longing for the Passover of the Lord, which should continue, when possible, through Holy Saturday.

* Fridays During Lent—In the United States, **the tradition of abstaining from meat on each Friday during Lent is maintained.***

* Fridays Throughout the Year—In memory of Christ's suffering and death, the Church prescribes making each Friday throughout the year a penitential day. All of us are urged to prepare appropriately for that weekly Easter that comes with each Sunday.

Whether abstaining from meat when required, or performing the “penance” of eating fish, as a previous poster does, or giving up chocolate during Lent…it is all for the good of our souls.

I’m not sure whether you disagree with the idea of penance, or are just trying to stir things up. Whatever.

I am genuinely trying to understand the purpose of fasting and abstinence in the Catholic Church. Do you view it as a form of punishment? Do you see it as paying back some kind of debt? In what way does it help your soul?

 

[Adeodatus]

This was the topic of another recent thread too.

In the US, we are not required to do penance on Friday (other than in Lent).

I was surprised by this too.

See Jimmy Akin’s pieces: jimmyakin.org/2004/07/more_on_friday_.html
and: catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0501bt.asp

False, my friend! Every Friday is a day of penance (well, except solemnities). Abstinence from meat is the usual form, and in the USA it is the required form during Lent. On other Fridays throughout the year, you either abstain from meat or do some other penance. But you still do a penance on Friday.

 

[Vico]

I am genuinely trying to understand the purpose of fasting and abstinence in the Catholic Church. Do you view it as a form of punishment? Do you see it as paying back some kind of debt? In what way does it help your soul?

Prayer, alms, charity, and Christian witness are very good acts of penance. We turn away from sin. There is benefit to controlling the passions. The abstinance (not eating certain foods) or fasting (less food, abstaining from maritial relations) prepares us to receive the Holy Mysteries, to have the proper dispositon for receiving the Holy Spirit. The fasting and abstinance took a different direction in west and east due to the foods available. In the west, the poor could afford fish but not meat so fish was a way of being like the poor. And by not eating as much and avoiding the expensive foods, people could donate the saved money, to help the poor. In the east there were more variety of foods available, so wine, meat, eggs, dairy, oil, and fish too were abstained from.

Saint Symeon the New Theologian (Discourses) wrote about fasting:

“For this healer of our souls is effective, in the case of one to quieten the fevers and impulses of the flesh, in another to assuage bad temper, in yet another to drive away sleep, in another to stir up zeal, and in yet another to restore purity of mind and to set him free from evil thoughts. … But without fasting no one was ever able to achieve any of these virtues or any others, for fasting is the beginning and foundation of every spiritual activity”

Bl. Pope John Paul II, 1997 Lent
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/messages/lent/documents/hf_jp-ii_mes_25101996_lent-1997_en.html

“Lent is thus a providential opportunity for fostering the spiritual detachment from riches necessary if we are to open ourselves to God. It is He to whom, as Christians, we must direct our entire lives, for we know that in this world we have no fixed abode, since “our commonwealth is in heaven” (Phil 3:20). At the end of Lent, the celebration of the Paschal Mystery shows how the Lenten journey of purification culminates in the free and loving gift of self to the Father. It is by taking this path that Christ’s disciples learn how to rise above themselves and their selfish interests in order to encounter in love their brothers and sisters.”

 

[LilyM]

Nope, never been stipulated that we need to eat fish on Fridays. Just not meat.

You can go fishless as well, and substitute whatever - eggs, tofurkey (the very idea sounds revolting, I’ve never been game to try it) macaroni cheese, bean burritos or whatever non-meaty foods float your boat.

 

[lutherlic]

False, my friend! Every Friday is a day of penance (well, except solemnities). Abstinence from meat is the usual form, and in the USA it is the required form during Lent. On other Fridays throughout the year, you either abstain from meat or do some other penance. But you still do a penance on Friday.

Adeodatus, the point I am making is between must and should (or urged, recommended, encouraged, etc.) do penance on non-Lenten Fridays.

In the 2 articles from Jimmy Akin I linked he says:

Thus I don’t see how–however strong one’s desire may be to find an obligation in the law–one can responsibly conclude that on the matter of obligatory Friday penance the law is not at least doubtful, in which case the doubt of law canon kicks in and tells us that the faithful are not obliged.

and

For what it is worth, the summary I have offered here regarding penance on typical Fridays also seems to be the understanding indicated in the Canon Law Society of America’s New Commentary on the Code of Canon Law. The commentary on canon 1253 summarizes the U.S. obligations and recommendations without indicating that a legal obligation to do penance continues to exist on typical Fridays of the year.

He also wrote about this topic here.

Reference this NCCB (now USCCB) document that says:

…we hereby terminate the traditional law of abstinence binding under pain of sin…

This Google search will produce links to many more similar analysis.

Again FWIW, I am not arguing against penance on non-Lenten Fridays, but trying to clearly understand if their is a binding obligation to do so in the US.

 

[Linda_Marie]

I am hoping someone one here can help me settle a disagreement. At one time it was Church discipline that we did not eat meat on Fridays. A lot of people therefore ate fish on Fridays. Now I have been having a discussion with a friend who says that the Church told us we had to eat fish of Fridays. That used to be my belief. My argument is that the Church did not tell us to eat fish on Fridays. Not eating meat was a penitential practice. It was about giving something up (i.e. meat) not replacing it with something else (e.g. eating fish instead of meat).

Now, I was of the same opinion as my friend until I read an article by quite a senior prelate who said what I’m now saying: the Friday penance was to give something up not just to swap one thing for another. My problem is I cannot remember (a) who the prelate was (although I think it was Cardinal Basil Hume) or (b) where I read it.

Which one of us is correct?

There was a time when it was required to eat fish on Fridays, but it was not the Church who ordered it.

The Food Proclamations of Queen Elizabeth I
Her Majesty was also very instrumental in meat-free Fridays. According to To The Queen’s Taste, “In 1563, by an act of Parliament, Elizabeth proclaimed that her countrymen had to eat fish on Wednesdays, Fridays, and Saturdays. Infraction of her command was punishable by three months’ imprisonment or a three-pound fine.” Though the law was rooted in religion, it was really implemented in order to boost the English shipbuilding industry and lower the cost of meat. She was a sneaky magistrate.