Not eating meat on Fridays

[Matthew_Holford]

Bl. Pope John Paul II, 1997 Lent

I know I’m going off topic but when was Pope John Paul II beatified? I thought the cause had only got as far as him being declared a Servant of God.

 

[LilyM]

I know I’m going off topic but when was Pope John Paul II beatified? I thought the cause had only got as far as him being declared a Servant of God.

A google search shows that he has been declared Venerable (19 December last year) and that there were reports he was going to be beatified in April this year, but that didn’t happen.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

I am genuinely trying to understand the purpose of fasting and abstinence in the Catholic Church. Do you view it as a form of punishment? Do you see it as paying back some kind of debt? In what way does it help your soul?

Wait—are you saying you’re not even Catholic, and don’t ‘get’ our practices. yet you were on some other poster’s case because she practices Catholic penance? And telling her she was wrong/off base?

Glad to hear you apologized.

 

[dixieagle]

I am genuinely trying to understand the purpose of fasting and abstinence in the Catholic Church. Do you view it as a form of punishment? Do you see it as paying back some kind of debt? In what way does it help your soul?

In a nutshell, doing penance is viewed as a, however small, effort at reparation for our sins. Here is a good link: newadvent.org/cathen/11618b.htm

 

[Cristiano]

I am genuinely trying to understand the purpose of fasting and abstinence in the Catholic Church. Do you view it as a form of punishment? Do you see it as paying back some kind of debt? In what way does it help your soul?

Penance is not a form of punishment, and yes it is a form of paying back some debt the same way stewardship is. Penance is a way to give ourselves back to God by practicing self-denial. Self-denial can be achieved through different forms of mortification. Don’t you think that monastic life includes form of mortification? Is monastic life bad?

 

[FrDavid96]

Adeodatus, the point I am making is between must and should (or urged, recommended, encouraged, etc.) do penance on non-Lenten Fridays.

In the 2 articles from Jimmy Akin I linked he says:

and

He also wrote about this topic here.

Reference this NCCB (now USCCB) document that says:

This Google search will produce links to many more similar analysis.

Again FWIW, I am not arguing against penance on non-Lenten Fridays, but trying to clearly understand if their is a binding obligation to do so in the US.

Yes. Every Friday is still a day of penance–nothing has changed that.

What has changed is that in the US, we are no longer strictly required to abstain from meat on Fridays outside of Lent. Instead, we can substitute other forms of penance in place of not-eating-meat.

This becomes more clear when one reads the entire sentence in the NCCB document
24. Among the works of voluntary self-denial and personal penance
which we especially commend to our people for the future observance
of Friday, even though we hereby terminate the traditional law of
abstinence binding under pain of sin, as the sole prescribed means of
observing Friday, we give first place to abstinence from flesh meat.

Every Friday is still a day of penance.

Again, here is the canon law
Can. 1250 The penitential days and times in the universal Church are every Friday of the whole year and the season of Lent.
vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P4O.HTM

Please re-read the web article that you’ve referenced. Please take note of the fact that this article, which claim that Friday is no longer a day of penance, makes no reference to canon 1250.

That seems rather strange to me, given that it is canon 1250, not 1251 and 1253 (which were referenced) that defines every Friday as a day of penance.

The obligation of Friday penance is still binding (although what particular form that penance might take is left to the individual in the US–with the strong suggestion of abstaining from meat).

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

If we are genuinely “taking up our cross” and following Christ sufferings will come upon us whether we want them or not. There is no need for us to invent them for ourselves.

The Apophthegmata (Sayings) of the Desert Fathers relate the story of a monk who would accept wine when offered to him (rather than draw attention to his penitential practice of always abstaining from wine), but would go without water for a whole day in order to offset every cup of wine. His disciples once had to plead with a host to stop offering wine because the host did not realize he had already loaded 3 days without water onto that holy monk. What’s the point? The saints of the East are just as known for taking on extraordinary penances as are those of the West. Why would they do this? To bring the rebellious flesh into obedience to the spirit.

Please re-read the web article that you’ve referenced. Please take note of the fact that this article, which claim that Friday is no longer a day of penance, makes no reference to canon 1250.

That seems rather strange to me, given that it is canon 1250, not 1251 and 1253 (which were referenced) that defines every Friday as a day of penance.

The obligation of Friday penance is still binding (although what particular form that penance might take is left to the individual in the US–with the strong suggestion of abstaining from meat).

Father, you are confusing two separate issues. The web article makes no attempt to claim that Fridays are not days of penance in the United States. It only claims that those days of penance carry no positive obligation to do any sort of penance. Now, a penitential day that no one has to observe seems like a waste of a law, but the blame for that falls upon the NCCB, not those who point out what they did.

 

[Cristiano]

…Father, you are confusing two separate issues. The web article makes no attempt to claim that Fridays are not days of penance in the United States. It only claims that those days of penance carry no positive obligation to do any sort of penance. Now, a penitential day that no one has to observe seems like a waste of a law, but the blame for that falls upon the NCCB, not those who point out what they did.

I think that you are correct with your statement; however, my questions are the following:
Is the document from the USCCB a valid legal one in terms of canon law? Are people truly exempted from abstinence on Fridays if the document is not valid? The document came out in 1966 and it was not reaffirmed by the whole USCCB when the new CCL came out. Now we have canon law that posits for us Friday as a day of penance and a document that pre-dates the CCL says the opposite.

 

[josephdaniel29]

Wait—are you saying you’re not even Catholic, and don’t ‘get’ our practices. yet you were on some other poster’s case because she practices Catholic penance? And telling her she was wrong/off base?

Glad to hear you apologized.

In a nutshell, doing penance is viewed as a, however small, effort at reparation for our sins. Here is a good link: newadvent.org/cathen/11618b.htm

Penance is not a form of punishment, and yes it is a form of paying back some debt the same way stewardship is. Penance is a way to give ourselves back to God by practicing self-denial. Self-denial can be achieved through different forms of mortification. Don’t you think that monastic life includes form of mortification? Is monastic life bad?

So does fasting and abstinence serve any purpose other than penance and paying for your sins?

 

[FrDavid96]

…
Father, you are confusing two separate issues. The web article makes no attempt to claim that Fridays are not days of penance in the United States. It only claims that those days of penance carry no positive obligation to do any sort of penance. Now, a penitential day that no one has to observe seems like a waste of a law, but the blame for that falls upon the NCCB, not those who point out what they did.

Actually, you’re the one confusing the 2 seperate issues here.

You’re saying that just because there’s no particular form of penance prescribed for a day of penance, that means that it is a “day that no one has to observe.” But the two are not the same thing.

On the contrary what I am saying is that every Friday of the year remains a day of penance, however, outside of Lent, the US Bishops have left it as a matter for the individual to decide what form this penance should take, while strongly suggesting the tradition of abstaining from meat.

We still do have to “observe the day.”

 

[Cristiano]

So does fasting and abstinence serve any purpose other than penance and paying for your sins?

Yes, loosing weight!

 

[PhilipCal]

As has been noted, there is no requirement to eat fish, on Friday,merely abstain from meat. Friday is not a “fast day” in the sense of the Lenten requirement, but simply a day of abstinence from meat.

Fortunately, both my wife and I enjoy seafood , so in truth, we’re not making all that great a sacrifice on Friday. We also enjoy pasta, so once more, not a whole lot of sacrifice.

That said, abstinence from meat (we love that too) can be a sacrifice made in the spirit of love for Our Lord.

 

[revert_jen]

I am genuinely trying to understand the purpose of fasting and abstinence in the Catholic Church. Do you view it as a form of punishment? Do you see it as paying back some kind of debt? In what way does it help your soul?

There is another way to look at it. I certainly do NOT view it as a form of punishment. When you are doing the minimum required, (e.g. just abstaining from meat on Fridays in Lent) it helps you increase your self-control, which helps you to grow in virtue, and it also gives you an opportunity for obedience to God, doing something you don’t like for itself. There aren’t always that many occasions for this. (although sometimes there are all too many!) For example, we are supposed to go to Mass every Sunday and on holy days, but I would go to Mass most Sundays even if it weren’t required, because I would miss it a lot if I didn’t go. So when I go to Mass, I am being obedient, but I’m not doing it just to be obedient.

When you are doing something that is not required (like eating something good for you that you dislike!), you can sometimes think of it as a gift. When you love someone, you want to give them things. When it’s God–well, talk about the Person who has everything! Voluntarily doing some penance is a little like a gift of love for God. It is a lot like the father who gives his child $100 to buy the father a present, and then the child buys a present worth $1 and gives it to the father, but it’s better than no present at all. My (earthly) father has pretty much everything he wants, so for Father’s Day, I usually cook him some of his favorite foods, enough that he can freeze a lot and eat it later. From a monetary standpoint it’s not worth much, but he appreciates it because I am voluntarily undergoing some trouble and inconvenience to do it, which is a sign of love.* It seems the same idea as voluntary penance with our Heavenly Father. Plus the reasons I said before (reparation, rememberance, and so forth).

I don’t know if this helps, but I’m hoping it gives a less gloomy view into the practice.

–Jen

*Also because my beef stew and my oatmeal cookies are pretty good, even if I do say so myself.

 

[revert_jen]

Jen I apologize for questioning your practices. It’s not an appropriate topic to question someone on, much less on a public forum. Please accept my apologies.

No problem. I apologize if I was too touchy, too.

–Jen

 

[dnar]

… it remains a penitential day …even in the USA

The Bishops too make this clear.

As to if one is still required to substitute something else…there seems to be a division of opinions out there…

I think one could make an argument for both sides myself.

Anyhow bottom Line is even if it is not longer required outside of Lent to do penance on Fridays in the USA…it is still a penitential day…and so Hopefully all will do something…if not for their sins…for mine

If one doesn’t do any act of penance on a Friday is this considered sinful, or is the “under pain of sin” gone from that?

 

[jmcrae]

The Apophthegmata (Sayings) of the Desert Fathers relate the story of a monk who would accept wine when offered to him (rather than draw attention to his penitential practice of always abstaining from wine), but would go without water for a whole day in order to offset every cup of wine. His disciples once had to plead with a host to stop offering wine because the host did not realize he had already loaded 3 days without water onto that holy monk. What’s the point? The saints of the East are just as known for taking on extraordinary penances as are those of the West. Why would they do this? To bring the rebellious flesh into obedience to the spirit.

Right. In any case the Orthodox have much longer and more severe penances than we do (50 days of strict fasting instead of only two, and abstinence from all processed foods of every kind on days of penance), so it seems odd to see someone who writes “Orthodox” in their religious affiliation, questioning our practices as being too hard - we are total sissies compared to them.

Father, you are confusing two separate issues. The web article makes no attempt to claim that Fridays are not days of penance in the United States. It only claims that those days of penance carry no positive obligation to do any sort of penance.

This is complete nonsense. If you write to your Bishop and ask him about this, he will tell you to do penance on Fridays, because they are days of penance - that’s what it means, “a day of penance” is that we are to do penance on that day.

 

[jmcrae]

Yes, loosing weight!

Doing things you don’t like increases your ability to discipline yourself, and increases your ability to be able to endure difficult situations when they come along, which is always a good thing.

 

[josephdaniel29]

I don’t know if this helps, but I’m hoping it gives a less gloomy view into the practice.

It is indeed less gloomy. It makes me wonder; why did the Catholic Church drop the requirement to abstain from meat on Fridays? I wonder if the (apparently) strong Catholic emphasis on penance had something to do with it? If fasting is seen primarily as a form of penance then other things, such as not watching tv or saying additional prayers could be seen as a reasonable substitute. If fasting is seen primarily as a way to constrain your passions then there really isn’t a substitute that is as effective.

Why do you think the requirement was dropped?

In Christ
Joe

 

[josephdaniel29]

Right. In any case the Orthodox have much longer and more severe penances than we do (50 days of strict fasting instead of only two, and abstinence from all processed foods of every kind on days of penance), so it seems odd to see someone who writes “Orthodox” in their religious affiliation, questioning our practices as being too hard - we are total sissies compared to them.

First of all nobody is a sissy and second, I’m not questioning your practices as being to hard, I’m questioning the purpose of your practices. I have never heard the idea that fasting is offered as reparations for sins. It seems odd to me.

 

[jmcrae]

First of all nobody is a sissy and second, I’m not questioning your practices as being to hard, I’m questioning the purpose of your practices. I have never heard the idea that fasting is offered as reparations for sins. It seems odd to me.

For what purpose do the Orthodox fast? Is it not to discipline their bodies and join their sufferings to Christ on the Cross in reparation for sins?