Not enough non catholic here

[PRmerger]

I find this interesting.

I am explaining to you the reality of the JW faith.
I could recite to you the ‘official line’ of the JW Governing Body, which is that we never change our doctrine, but that our understanding of it increases.

Semantically I would be claiming the same as yourself, but I am at least being honest when I say what that means in reality is we have to change our understanding as the doctrines develop.

I’m feeling a little like you are finding a parallel admission hard to make!

Perhaps if you could give an example of a JW teaching that has changed/developed.

For example, if you could offer, “The WT used to teach A and now it teaches B”, that would be helpful.

 

[PRmerger]

I find this interesting.

I am explaining to you the reality of the JW faith.
I could recite to you the ‘official line’ of the JW Governing Body, which is that we never change our doctrine, but that our understanding of it increases.

Semantically I would be claiming the same as yourself, but I am at least being honest when I say what that means in reality is we have to change our understanding as the doctrines develop.

I’m feeling a little like you are finding a parallel admission hard to make!

You are correct, redle. The Catholic paradigm of development of doctrine is quite a bit different than the JW paradigm of actual changes in teaching.

Take this analogy, as it pertains to the Catholic development of doctrine:

It has been the “constant teaching” in our house that when the kids come home from school they are to do certain things: put their school supplies away, put their shoes away, wash their hands, take off their uniforms, eat their snack, finish their chores, practice their piano, etc etc etc.

Despite the fact that they have been doing this every school day for 5-15 years every once in a while we need to have a “family meeting” to pronounce, declare and define exactly who should be doing which job and how it is to be done. (Note: I try to ignore their incredulous looks that say, “What? We’re supposed to hang up our jumpers again this year?” or “What? You’ve never said that we had to take off our uniforms and hang them up!” )

However, for the first 4 years of my children’s schooling they did not use a backpack.

Thus, when they started in the upper grades coming home and throwing their backpacks on the floor we had to have a “council” to announce: ALL BACKPACKS NEED TO BE HUNG ON THEIR RESPECTIVE HOOKS.

Now, this is not a new command. The ever-present command was: ALL SCHOOL SUPPLIES NEED TO BE PUT AWAY WHEN YOU COME HOME. We are just offering a development of that command.

As there were no backpacks for the first 4 years, there was no need to say, “And that includes backpacks, of course!”

Now, they can try (and they did!) to say, “Hey, that never was a rule before!”…but we are too smart for them!

 

[redle]

So one example of a change:
At one time we believed that we should celebrate Christmas. Today we believe that we should not.

We have always held that Christ was born of a virgin and died for us (core doctrines) but not that we should celebrate what is purportedly his birthday.

I use this example as it’s well known that JW’s don’t celebrate Xmas.

Redle.

 

[PRmerger]

So one example of a change:
At one time we believed that we should celebrate Christmas. Today we believe that we should not.

We have always held that Christ was born of a virgin and died for us (core doctrines) but not that we should celebrate what is purportedly his birthday.

I use this example as it’s well known that JW’s don’t celebrate Xmas.

Redle.

Ah, I see.

And is it because, as I once heard a JW proclaim, “bad things happen in the Bible on birthdays”?

 

[redle]

You are pretty much right about that proclamation, yes.
Two birthdays in the Bible, Herod and Pharaoh. Both had bad things happen therefore what message do we take away…?

(Actually I can think of 1 maybe 2 other birthdays mentioned but they are more obscure and we dont mention those).

For Xmas we also factor in it’s history and related customs to lead us to our current belief.

I think that change came in around the 1930’s but I’d have to check.

 

[PRmerger]

You are pretty much right about that proclamation, yes.
Two birthdays in the Bible, Herod and Pharaoh. Both had bad things happen therefore what message do we take away…?

(Actually I can think of 1 maybe 2 other birthdays mentioned but they are more obscure and we dont mention those).

For Xmas we also factor in it’s history and related customs to lead us to our current belief.

I think that change came in around the 1930’s but I’d have to check.

So that prompts 2 questions:

1. Why was it okay, initially, to celebrate birthdays but not now?
2. Do not bad things happen in Egypt? So why is it not JW doctrine to not visit Egypt?

 

[PRmerger]

You are pretty much right about that proclamation, yes.
Two birthdays in the Bible, Herod and Pharaoh. Both had bad things happen therefore what message do we take away…?

(Actually I can think of 1 maybe 2 other birthdays mentioned but they are more obscure and we dont mention those).

For Xmas we also factor in it’s history and related customs to lead us to our current belief.

I think that change came in around the 1930’s but I’d have to check.

This appears to be a change in your beliefs, not a development in your understanding.

But maybe I’m not seeing how your belief has stayed the same???

 

[redle]

Yes, you asked for an example of where our teaching has changed. Xmas is one such example.

To try to answer your other two questions:

1. It wasn’t ok to celebrate birthdays, and now we understand that we no longer do.
2. Jesus went to Egypt when he was young.

I get why you ask question 2, but it comes down to maturity and discernment - milk and meat. We can ask all manner of, with genuine respect, pointless or ridiculous questions like that, but learning about God and Jesus a picture is built up and the important aspects become apparent.

Its a bit like focussing on the way the clothes of the resurrected Jesus were folded instead of the fact he had risen. Just because a detail is mentioned in scripture does not make it important per se.

I think you already know this well but enjoy teasing me!!

 

[PRmerger]

Yes, you asked for an example of where our teaching has changed. Xmas is one such example.

To try to answer your other two questions:

1. It wasn’t ok to celebrate birthdays, and now we understand that we no longer do.

Fair enough.

So there are some things that you could be doing today that your GB could later tell you is against God’s law?

 

[Porknpie]

Yes, you asked for an example of where our teaching has changed. Xmas is one such example.

To try to answer your other two questions:

1. It wasn’t ok to celebrate birthdays, and now we understand that we no longer do.
2. Jesus went to Egypt when he was young.

I get why you ask question 2, but it comes down to maturity and discernment - milk and meat. We can ask all manner of, with genuine respect, pointless or ridiculous questions like that, but learning about God and Jesus a picture is built up and the important aspects become apparent.

Its a bit like focussing on the way the clothes of the resurrected Jesus were folded instead of the fact he had risen. Just because a detail is mentioned in scripture does not make it important per se.

I think you already know this well but enjoy teasing me!!

Hi Redie, I’m lurking and enjoying the conversation. Do I understand JWs believe hell is not real…that there is not a place of everlasting punishment? If so, can you explain why you believe this?

Thank you,

Pork

 

[PRmerger]

1. Jesus went to Egypt when he was young.

Not sure why this negates the fact that bad things happen in Egypt, therefore, by JW ideology, one shouldn’t go to Egypt.

Jesus also had a birthday.

If Jesus going into Egypt somehow sanctifies it, then it would appear that Jesus having a birthday would also sanctify that celebration.

I get why you ask question 2, but it comes down to maturity and discernment - milk and meat. We can ask all manner of, with genuine respect, pointless or ridiculous questions like that, but learning about God and Jesus a picture is built up and the important aspects become apparent.

Its a bit like focussing on the way the clothes of the resurrected Jesus were folded instead of the fact he had risen.** Just because a detail is mentioned in scripture does not make it important per se.**

I think you already know this well but enjoy teasing me!!

Exactly. The bolded section is exactly right. It does appear to me that the JW GB is indeed focusing on an irrelevant detail–how were Jesus’ burial cloth was folded–and making it into a doctrine–therefore, “we must always fold our sheets the way Jesus’ burial cloths were left behind.”

 

[guanophore]

Hmm, that’s a good question - one I’ve never really pondered before. I suppose I can only say that a core doctrine is a fundamental one upon which another doctrine depends, with a large dose of subjectivity thrown in.

We do not have a list of “these are core and these are not”. In fact Core Doctrine is not a phrase we actually use ourselves, we just say ‘understandings’ and yes, they are subject to change.

For the reasons mentioned already, we accept the teachings handed down to us as being ‘food at the proper time’, taken from Jesus parable of the faithful and wise servant.

Redle.

Well the menu sure keeps “updating” over the last 500 years, and I notice each different 'understanding" seems to produce more division.

 

[redle]

Not sure why this negates the fact that bad things happen in Egypt, therefore, by JW ideology, one shouldn’t go to Egypt.

Jesus also had a birthday.

If Jesus going into Egypt somehow sanctifies it, then it would appear that Jesus having a birthday would also sanctify that celebration.

Exactly. The bolded section is exactly right. It does appear to me that the JW GB is indeed focusing on an irrelevant detail–how were Jesus’ burial cloth was folded–and making it into a doctrine–therefore, “we must always fold our sheets the way Jesus’ burial cloths were left behind.”

With birthdays, there are two examples in the Bible. Each was being celebrated by a pagan, and each involved the death of someone. Therefore birthdays are shown in a bad light.
Jesus had a day of birth, as have we all, but we do not see him celebrating it as an anniversary or annual event.
When we put these pieces together it leads us to not celebrate birthdays.

Now applying the same reasoning principles against visiting Egypt.
Some bads things happened in Egypt. Are all references to Egypt in the Bible indicating that it is inherently bad? No, for example Jesus went there himself.
Does this mean we should never go to Egypt? No, the Bible as a whole does not try to teach that. It is an interesting detail which helps flesh out the Bible account, but it is not trying to tell us never to go to Egypt, so JW ideology does not teach that.

BTW, you are being too generous when you say the menu keeps changing over the last 500 years - JW’s do not trace themselves back for that long, much more like 150 years

 

[PRmerger]

With birthdays, there are two examples in the Bible. Each was being celebrated by a pagan, and each involved the death of someone. Therefore birthdays are shown in a bad light.

What about this: bad things happen when your daughter performs a dance (as in Mark 6).

Why is this not forbidden in JW ideology?

Jesus had a day of birth, as have we all, but we do not see him celebrating it as an anniversary or annual event.
When we put these pieces together it leads us to not celebrate birthdays.

But where in the Scriptures does it tell us to only celebrate the things that Jesus celebrated?

Now applying the same reasoning principles against visiting Egypt.
Some bads things happened in Egypt. Are all references to Egypt in the Bible indicating that it is inherently bad?

And where in the bible does it tell us that only if there are bad things that happen, but not all bad things happen there, should it not be forbidden?

Does this mean we should never go to Egypt? No, the Bible as a whole does not try to teach that. It is an interesting detail which helps flesh out the Bible account, but it is not trying to tell us never to go to Egypt, so JW ideology does not teach that

How does what one know what’s an interesting detail, and what’s a core point? What verses in Scripture tell us this?

BTW, you are being too generous when you say the menu keeps changing over the last 500 years - JW’s do not trace themselves back for that long, much more like 150 years

That was my friend guanophore who made that comment. But I think the reference is to any Christian who has departed from the faith given, once for all, to us. Protestantism has existed for over 500 years–and that is what we are referencing.

 

[redle]

What about this: bad things happen when your daughter performs a dance (as in Mark 6).

Why is this not forbidden in JW ideology?

But where in the Scriptures does it tell us to only celebrate the things that Jesus celebrated?

And where in the bible does it tell us that only if there are bad things that happen, but not all bad things happen there, should it not be forbidden?

How does what one know what’s an interesting detail, and what’s a core point? What verses in Scripture tell us this?

That was my friend guanophore who made that comment. But I think the reference is to any Christian who has departed from the faith given, once for all, to us. Protestantism has existed for over 500 years–and that is what we are referencing.

Phew, you are making me work here

Instead of answering each point you raise, I will give a principle that addresses them all.
Php 1:9 And this I pray: That your charity may more and more abound in knowledge and in all understanding:
2Ti 2:7 Understand what I say: for the Lord will give thee in all things understanding.

These verses speak of understanding, a mental ‘putting together’, recognition, discernment, reasoning.

If we are looking for a scriptural answer to all of our questions, well there could not be a Bible big enough.
this is why we are told to use our powers of reason to take the context, the bigger picture and the details, then find the answer that is harmonious to the rest of scripture.

Therefore, why do JW’s not object to dancing?
Ps 150:4 (KJV) “Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.”

The point of Mark 6 is not about dance even though it is a detail in vs 22.

It is a trap to expect to find every answer in scripture - you will never find it, nor are we expected to. This is why we are trained :
Heb 5:14 But strong meat is for the perfect: for them who by custom have their senses exercised to the discerning of good and evil.

Redle.

 

[guanophore]

With birthdays, there are two examples in the Bible. Each was being celebrated by a pagan, and each involved the death of someone. Therefore birthdays are shown in a bad light.
Jesus had a day of birth, as have we all, but we do not see him celebrating it as an anniversary or annual event.
When we put these pieces together it leads us to not celebrate birthdays.

Thank you redle for this excellent example of fundamentalist literalism. I have not seen such a good one in a long time.

  No, the Bible as a whole does not try to teach .....

I think this is a foundational point that reflects the main difference between Catholics and bible Christians. Catholics recognize that the Holy Scriptures are sacred writing, but are not a person, and do not have the capabilities of a person (including teaching). Teaching is an activity that is given by Jesus to the Church, and the Church has written that the Scriptures are “profitable” in that activity.

The idea that the words themselves “teach” is intrinsic to the sola scriptura view, and when people read the scriptures they believe that they are being “taught” of God (because of the HS that is within them). This results in a myriad of various “truths” or practices, such as the one outlined above, that are said to be “bible based”. In fact, the reader is teaching themselves, or being influenced by other sources outside the Scripture to reach conclusions such as these.

 

[guanophore]

These verses speak of understanding, a mental 'putting together', recognition, discernment, reasoning.

If we are looking for a scriptural answer to all of our questions, well there could not be a Bible big enough.
this is why we are told to use our powers of reason to take the context, the bigger picture and the details, then find the answer that is harmonious to the rest of scripture.

It is a trap to expect to find every answer in scripture - you will never find it, nor are we expected to. This is why we are trained :
Heb 5:14 But strong meat is for the perfect: for them who by custom have their senses exercised to the discerning of good and evil.

Redle.

YOu make a number of good points here Redle, and this sums up very well why Jesus established a Church and gave them authority to teach and shepherd His people. Yes, we are to use our powes of reason and to study, and seek, but we are never to do that in isolation from the One Faith that produced those scriptures. When the effort to discern their meaning is separated from the faith that produced them, all sorts of diversions occur.

 

[redle]

YOu make a number of good points here Redle, and this sums up very well why Jesus established a Church and gave them authority to teach and shepherd His people. Yes, we are to use our powes of reason and to study, and seek, but we are never to do that in isolation from the One Faith that produced those scriptures. When the effort to discern their meaning is separated from the faith that produced them, all sorts of diversions occur.

Nice comments guanophore, thank you for sharing.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Nice comments guanophore, thank you for sharing.

Redle,

It’s nice to see a respectful exchange of ideas and understanding regarding Holy Scripture and Christian faith. Sadly, there are many non-Catholics who come here with an agenda that does not include gaining knowledge and understanding of the Catholic faith, or other faiths depending on the topic. Things sometimes end up like this :slapfight: instead of this :grouphug: .

And—I’m learning more about your faith in following this discussion.

Peace and blessings,
Anna

 

[redle]

Thanks Anna,

I didn’t want to come here to fight, but I was (am?) a little nervous as to how the RC community here may respond to my posts.

I saw the thread ‘not enough non-catholics’ and thought I’d pop up to answer anyone’s questions, since JW’s are a very small group by comparison.

Think I’m about to get beaten to a pulp on the answer I gave to Porknpie about hell though