Not Exactly A Clown Mass, But A Clown Act For Sure

[I_Believe]

They say that the OF is the greatest thing ever to happen to the TLM - the Latin speaking priests learned how to say their Mass in a reverent manner, and the people who attend it are much more careful nowadays to educate themselves in their faith. This is a good thing.

Where did you go there jmcrae ? Still waiting for the quotes to back up your statement. Come on now, who are “they” ?

“… the people who attend it are much more careful nowadays to educate themselves in their faith” ?

I’ll admit, I’ve said some pretty stupid things on this forum in the past, but that little phrase there is the most absurd thing I’ve read in quite awhile.

 

[Spirithound]

Where did you go there jmcrae ? Still waiting for the quotes to back up your statement. Come on now, who are “they” ?

“… the people who attend it are much more careful nowadays to educate themselves in their faith” ?

I’ll admit, I’ve said some pretty stupid things on this forum in the past, but that little phrase there is the most absurd thing I’ve read in quite awhile.

You’ve misread jmcrae’s point. She (??) was saying that “they” (those who assist at the EF) say the OF is the best thing to happen to the EF because it is causing Priests who celebrate the EF to be more careful and reverent.

 

[jmcrae]

You’ve misread jmcrae’s point. She (??) was saying that “they” (those who assist at the EF) say the OF is the best thing to happen to the EF because it is causing Priests who celebrate the EF to be more careful and reverent.

Exactly.

 

[I_Believe]

Is that Ignoramus using a super soaker to sprinkle the crowd with Holy Water:bigyikes:

Apparently so. But, since there are no rubrics for doing so in the OF Mass, it seems foolish to waste so much bandwidth blaming the OF for this - and it is certainly not the fault of the English language, either. (In fact, it seems to be the result of a failure in communication, rather than too much communication, that is at the root of this problem.)

They say that the OF is the greatest thing ever to happen to the TLM - the Latin speaking priests learned how to say their Mass in a reverent manner, and the people who attend it are much more careful nowadays to educate themselves in their faith. This is a good thing.

You’ve misread jmcrae’s point. She (??) was saying that “they” (those who assist at the EF) say the OF is the best thing to happen to the EF because it is causing Priests who celebrate the EF to be more careful and reverent.

I didn’t misread anything at all.

So, suppressing the TLM for nearly 40 years, and going with a Mass that enables liturgical abuse, coupled with the discarding of rock solid Catholic catechesis in our schools, and false ecumenism versus ecumenism of return, has been good for the souls of the laity ?

Seems to me to be digging deep to find a saving grace hidden there in the smoke of Satan.
Let’s try one more time, drawing on the words of the man who was to become the Bishop of Rome.

Cardinal Ratzinger claims that our ecclesial malaise is attributable, at least in part, to the condition of the Liturgy. He writes: “I am convinced that the crisis in the Church that we are experiencing is to a large extent due to the disintegration of the Liturgy” (Milestones, page 148).

Sheesh people. Get your heads out of the sand. Never in the history of the Church has the Hierarchy strayed so far from Her mission.

Trent set the bar. VI reaffirmed it. VII tore it to pieces. And the man who sat by and watched it all unravel and did nothing to stop it is deemed “the Great”.

Gee, I guess I just can’t see how lucky we are to have some bozo in tye dyed vestments using a super soaker to do his part in enriching the TLM.

Somebody find me a clown to give a high five to. Or do I have to be a Bishop to do that ?

 

[TracyJ]

Where did you go there jmcrae ? Still waiting for the quotes to back up your statement. Come on now, who are “they” ?

“… the people who attend it are much more careful nowadays to educate themselves in their faith” ?

I’ll admit, I’ve said some pretty stupid things on this forum in the past, but that little phrase there is the most absurd thing I’ve read in quite awhile.

What little phrase?
JMcrae has been very kind to me and I don’t take lightly to that little word, absurd.
I understand the term “they” it means something that a person has heard in general from more than one person.

 

[TracyJ]

I didn’t misread anything at all.

So, suppressing the TLM for nearly 40 years, and going with a Mass that enables liturgical abuse, coupled with the discarding of rock solid Catholic catechesis in our schools, and false ecumenism versus ecumenism of return, has been good for the souls of the laity ?

Seems to me to be digging deep to find a saving grace hidden there in the smoke of Satan.
Let’s try one more time, drawing on the words of the man who was to become the Bishop of Rome.

Sheesh people. Get your heads out of the sand. Never in the history of the Church has the Hierarchy strayed so far from Her mission.

Trent set the bar. VI reaffirmed it. VII tore it to pieces. And the man who sat by and watched it all unravel and did nothing to stop it is deemed “the Great”.

Gee, I guess I just can’t see how lucky we are to have some bozo in tye dyed vestments using a super soaker to do his part in enriching the TLM.

Somebody find me a clown to give a high five to. Or do I have to be a Bishop to do that ?

http://www.traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/Images (101-200)/199-ClownMass.jpg

I understand your distress. Do you think that you’re going to pull out of the Catholic Church and go to one that is less informal?

 

[ac_claire]

I understand your distress. Do you think that you’re going to pull out of the Catholic Church and go to one that is less informal?

Hi Tracy,

If I can presume to speak for someone else…of course he wouldn’t pull out of the Catholic Church and go to one that is “less informal.” Catholicism isn’t a denomination and that kind of church-hopping isn’t an option for us.

What exactly is informal about the Church anyhow…? Supersoakers, high-fives, dancing and hugging are abberations and not the standard for Catholic worship.

 

[BusyLady]

I attend the LifeTeen Mass at our Church. It is very upbeat, lively, the sermons are interactive. The teens love it as they feel more involved with the Church. I love it because of the contemporary Christian music.

It started small and now we have about 1500 worshipers at that Mass. The mass isn’t the standard 45 minutes. Instead it is no less than 60-90 minutes each week. And I can proudly say that every bit of time is used in worship and praise.

Our Church also offers more traditional masses both in Spanish and English. These masses are also attended heavily.

I just don’t think it’s necessary to criticize or “knock” a style of mass that others find enligthening. We are one Catholic Community and as such we should be understanding that as long as we adhere to the teachings there is no “right or wrong” way to go to mass.

Just a side note: My Church is one of the largest in a community of about 80k. There are a number of towns with a 30 minute drive. On Ash Wednesday, the priest, brothers, deacons, and sisters gave ashes to no less than 10,000 Catholics.

A typical Sunday: Mass is said 5 times and each service has 500-2000 in attendance.

My thought is that any Church that can pull that number of Catholics has got to be doing something right.

 

[ac_claire]

I attend the LifeTeen Mass at our Church. It is very upbeat, lively, the sermons are interactive. The teens love it as they feel more involved with the Church. I love it because of the contemporary Christian music.

It started small and now we have about 1500 worshipers at that Mass. The mass isn’t the standard 45 minutes. Instead it is no less than 60-90 minutes each week. And I can proudly say that every bit of time is used in worship and praise.

Our Church also offers more traditional masses both in Spanish and English. These masses are also attended heavily.

I just don’t think it’s necessary to criticize or “knock” a style of mass that others find enligthening. We are one Catholic Community and as such we should be understanding that as long as we adhere to the teachings there is no “right or wrong” way to go to mass.

I’m glad to hear your parish is doing so well.

I think your statement “there is no “right or wrong” way to go to mass” is only true if you’re talking about people’s different preferences among approved forms or rites. For instance, one can prefer to attend a TLM or one can prefer to attend an orthodox OF Mass, or a Maronite Divine Litrugy, and generally speaking one preference isn’t better than the other because all three are valid Masses.

But there are some objective standards to the celebration of the Mass. Using a supersoaker to bless the laity or engaging in liturgical dance are objectively incorrect. These abuses aren’t the same thing as preferring one valid celebration over another.

 

[BusyLady]

I’m glad to hear your parish is doing so well.

I think your statement “there is no “right or wrong” way to go to mass” is only true if you’re talking about people’s different preferences among approved forms or rites. For instance, one can prefer to attend a TLM or one can prefer to attend an orthodox OF Mass, or a Maronite Divine Litrugy, and generally speaking one preference isn’t better than the other because all three are valid Masses.

But there are some objective standards to the celebration of the Mass. Using a supersoaker to bless the laity or engaging in liturgical dance are objectively incorrect. These abuses aren’t the same thing as preferring one valid celebration over another.

Yes, I’d agree I wouldn’t be happy if a supersoaker was used to bless the laity. I don’t think that is acceptable during Mass. “liturgical dance”??? Could you define that?

During our service, the kids dance during the recessional hymn. And not “dance” like you’d see in a club, more dancing to fit the words of the song. Outside of that, the Mass itself is unchanged. The Priest is very good about making sure that goes unchanged.

During his sermons, he does bring in “props” but nothing like the supersoaker I saw in the first post. His props are used to assist the teens in understanding the gospel.

I am happy for his efforts to appeal to this younger generation. It has opened doors that have been previously closed in this community. The demographic numbers for that age group has grown greatly. It is truly wonderful to see these teens driving themselves to Church by their own choice. It is fabulous to be able to speak with my kids after Mass and they truly understand the readings.

I can accept that there are those that prefer the more solemn Masses of my youth, but they are no longer for me.

 

[ac_claire]

Yes, I’d agree I wouldn’t be happy if a supersoaker was used to bless the laity. I don’t think that is acceptable during Mass. “liturgical dance”??? Could you define that?

During our service, the kids dance during the recessional hymn. And not “dance” like you’d see in a club, more dancing to fit the words of the song. Outside of that, the Mass itself is unchanged. The Priest is very good about making sure that goes unchanged.

I can’t think of how to define it aside from “dancing inserted in the liturgy” lol. What you’ve described does sounds like liturgical dancing, which is officially forbidden in liturgy by the Holy See.

Someone else will know more about this than me…but I think that there is a very limited exception (in the GIRM?) where some forms of “movement” can be allowed by a special indult in the case of ethnic parishes with a cultural background in sacred dance.

I don’t want to derail this thread and make it all about liturgical dance, but I hope that maybe answers your question.

 

[Muckdog]

I’m surprised no one has posted a response from the priests. Has anyone talked to the priests about the whys and whats? There could be a good explaination. Well, maybe not a good one, but at least an explaination.

I’m all for dance as a spiritual and prayerful exercise, but the Mass is so compact there is little time for anything else. Perhaps we could set some time after Mass for things like Mickey Mouse and supersoakers. I would stay around for dance or to view spiritual paintings.

 

[BusyLady]

Thank you for your response, ac claire. We can agree to disagree as I do not find it to take away from the meaning of the Mass and it is my opinion that if it brings someone closer to their faith then there is nothing wrong with it.

Isn’t the whole point of Mass to hear the word of God? I have to believe that my God has other more important things to worry about than whether or not there is “dancing” going on in the Church.

As for it being disrespectful…it’s a matter of opinion.

 

[BusyLady]

I’m surprised no one has posted a response from the priests. Has anyone talked to the priests about the whys and whats? There could be a good explaination. Well, maybe not a good one, but at least an explaination.

I’m all for dance as a spiritual and prayerful exercise, but the Mass is so compact there is little time for anything else. Perhaps we could set some time after Mass for things like Mickey Mouse and supersoakers. I would stay around for dance or to view spiritual paintings.

Because the Mass that I attend is intended for the youth of our parish, it is more upbeat. As far as time constraints, that’s subjective. These teens start arriving at 5:45 for Mass that starts at 6:30 then after Mass (that normally ends between 8 and 8:30) they attend Life night that does not end until 10pm.

My goodness, prior to attending this Mass I had never seen that kind of willful participation from teens. And because the teens are gaining in their faith they are bringing parents, family and friends back to the Church.

Surely, there is nothing wrong with that.

 

[Iamnotafraid]

I once attended a Christmas Mass in which Santa Claus was invited to the altar with the priest, to “speak to all the little children about Christmas…” - I’m afraid I left.

I would think it would liven things up for the kids in attendance, no?

I’m fairly certain it is a well known phenomena that kids don’t find Church particularly exciting.

If you think about it, adding a bit of new excitement to Church, would make the kids want to come back the next week, to see if anything else interesting happens.

 

[Layman]

I think this sort of thing has been well-tried for the past 30-40 years. I remember religious and clergy going on about ‘The Youth’ and ‘The Young People’ in the 70’s/'80’s.

I don’t think it works. It can lead to impiety and bowdlerisation. Religion isn’t entertainment. I would guess you’d get what I think happens in Protestant Revivalism; early enthusiasm and then, the implosion.

Just an opinion. I’m a long way from wanting anything to do with that sort of Mass.

 

[I_Believe]

What little phrase?
JMcrae has been very kind to me and I don’t take lightly to that little word, absurd.
I understand the term “they” it means something that a person has heard in general from more than one person.

Yea, we hear a lot of general unsubstantiated claims here on TC.

Perhaps it’s taking so long for the person you are answering for repeatedly to respond because it’s tough to dig up anything to back up the claim.

 

[I_Believe]

I would think it would liven things up for the kids in attendance, no?

I’m fairly certain it is a well known phenomena that kids don’t find Church particularly exciting.

If you think about it, adding a bit of new excitement to Church, would make the kids want to come back the next week, to see if anything else interesting happens.

Yea, if one can’t find a way to explain the Faith, novelty might work.

 

[Iamnotafraid]

Yea, if one can’t find a way to explain the Faith, novelty might work.

Exactly.

I remember growing up, our parish had a really boring priest and quite a few people, our family included, went to the neighbouring town for mass.

Some years past, and the old parish got a new priest who could whip through a Mass on Sunday in 25 minutes.

I had moved away from home by then, but my parents returned and from their accounts, the parish was packed, renewed, rejuvenated and this priest, on his own initiative, saw to it, to have a parish hall funded and built.

A tradionalist may say, that’s awful, Mass is Holy, sacred and cannot be rushed.

A realist may say, that’s real life, people like their religion served Hot and fast.

What’s better?

A nearly empty Church with truly devoted believers?

or

A packed Church, filled with half hearted believers, who at least show up?

I suppose, your God only knows.

 

[Eddie_Mac]

My wife and I used to attend the life teen Mass occasionally when we lived in California.

The parts that I had issue with were:

Christian praise music. Not appropriate.

All of the teens crowded around the altar. Often we could not see the Mass. They would lock arms and sway as the music played.

The sign of peace took 10 minutes, easily. Everyone had to hug everyone. I actually had to signal to people that I reallt did not care to make physical contact with everone on my side of the church.

If people need to be entertained in order to be kept in the church then there is not enough of The Spirit in our teachin our children.

If someone wants to be on the altar and participate in the Mass, they can be an altar server, lecter, or extraordinary minister once of age. They can be ushers, greeters. They can be teachers.

We don’t need to customize the Mass for everyone.

Eddie Mac