Not Exactly A Clown Mass, But A Clown Act For Sure

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Quick question:

If you see that a Mass is going to have obvious abuses, like the pastor walking in wearing Mickey Mouse ears and tie dye, can you just walk out?
 
Sure. I wouldn’t flounce out, mind you. Just leave quietly and discreetly.
 
Day one?

Jesus
Paul The Church has never had a preference for the elite or the educated, but rather for the poor and illiterate.
EDIT

if you believe that we have been discussing the poor or the illiterate, you have not been following the conversation.

Care to know? Simply ask.
 
if you believe that we have been discussing the poor or the illiterate, you have not been following the conversation.
I was referring to the question that asked since when did the Church appeal to the lowest common denominator. This question was made in context of the Latin in the Mass being used with the readings available in the vernacular. In the larger context of this thread, the mission of the Church is to be available even to those who can not read, or can not follow along with the missal in English and still be attuned to Mass, or have difficulty with the older wordings of the Douay-Rheims.

The Church has always had a mission to the lowest common denominator. Clowns were never authorized, but the vernacular was, and with good, pastoral reasons.
 
You going to roll your eyes at that ? The Veterum Sapientia pretty much discredits your entire post.
Yes, to the extent that it is a disciplinary statement, as any statement about the language of the liturgy is. Later documents tell us what is allowed. That one discredits nothing I said.

Nor did I speak against using Latin in the liturgy, which is the only part of what you quoted that has anything to do with the discussion at hand. I applauded its use specifically for those who are more drawn to that form. Further, we use Latin frequently in our liturgies though the entire liturgy is not done in Latin. I have no problem with that or the idea that people should be familiar with at least the most common Latin prayers.
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maurin:
This is not at all necessarily so. We survived very well in the English speaking world with the Douay Reims translation of Scripture, and similar language used on the right hand page of our Missals while assisting at Mass. Since when did the Church become so concerned with appealing to the lowest common denominator and at the same time dragging down, rather than appealing to the highest common denominator and at the same time lifting up?
The bulk of the Church’s history applies to a highly illiterate population who didn’t have a clue what was being said at Mass and thus applied themselves to other passtimes while fulfilling their “Sunday obligation”. Even today there is a large percentage of the world who is illiterate and incapable of following along with the translated side of the missal.

The fact that people didn’t object to the old translations I would attribute as much to the fact that it was the only game in town and the fact that one didn’t dare question anything as any inherent accuracy in either its own translation from the Latin or the Latin translation from the original scripture.

People want to pray in their native language and prefer to be able to understand what is being said at Mass without having to translate it. It is as true now as it was when they changed the language to Latin to accomodate that wish. Jesus never told anyone they had to pray in a specific language nor that any liturgy had to be in a particular language. Arguing for a language because you prefer it while arguing against someone else’s ability to do the same for their preference–which the Church fully allows–doesn’t sound like the kind of honest argument you usually try to make.

It isn’t about “feelings” and it isn’t about making it “easier”; it’s about people being able to understand more fully so they can be more fully involved in their own worship rather than the bystanders they were through much of our history. In the end, the most efficacious way is the one which draws people more fully to the mystery and that differs between people.

I’m not sure why it bothers anyone what language I prefer as long as they can hear the one they prefer but it sure does seem to raise people’s hackles. Personally, I’m happy that people want to pray.

Peace,
 
The bulk of the Church’s history applies to a highly illiterate population who didn’t have a clue what was being said at Mass and thus applied themselves to other passtimes while fulfilling their “Sunday obligation”. Even today there is a large percentage of the world who is illiterate and incapable of following along with the translated side of the missal.

,
where is your proof that the highly illiterate population en masse “didn’t have a clue what was being said at Mass?”
 
There is only one thing that I would suggest that everyone keep in mind. The question of the mass in Latin in the vernacular is not a universal concern of Catholics. It seems more a concern for the Northern Hemisphere and those few Southern nations that have strong European roots.

I was a missionary in the Amazon for seven years. The indigenous people did not embrace Latin in the mass. We tried to introduce some of the parts of the mass sung in Latin, such as the Lamb of God or the Lord Have Mercy in Greek. The indigenous population did not like it because they associated it with the Church of Europe.

There are still very strong anti-white feelings among the indigenous people there, because the white population is very oppressive of the indigenous people. While the white population, which is mostly of Spanish, Italian, German and Portugese descent controls the political machinery, economy and government that is corrupt and keeps the indigenous people living on the fringes, their version of Catholicism is always going to have a credibility problem.

I believe in the power of tradtion. Nonetheless, people like Dorothy Day and Peter Maurin also taught me a great deal about the power of credibility. The observance of tradition without credibility is a difficult sale to make.

There has to be a return to a life of virtue, not just to tradition. They must go together. That is where reason enters the sphere of faith and faith the sphere of reason.

Fraternally,

JR 🙂
 
2 points:

1: Maurin’s posts ring true to me: it is arrogant and deeply condescending to suppose that people not educated to university level require simplified liturgy. A observation from the practice of the Anglican Church of England: there is a strong corollary between poorer areas (e.g. the East End of London) and High Church practices (use of Catholic vestments, incense, Gergorian Chant and so on). It is the well-heeled middle class areas (e.g. the commuter county of Kent - London’s Connecticut) that have been the mainstay of plain Low Church worship. Granted there are fundamental theological differences between “High” and “Low” within the Church of England which (please God) do not exist in the Catholic Church, but you get the point: if anything, it seems to be that is the plain ordinary folk that realise that worship is special and other worldly.

2: JReducation’s point is well made (and much respect to him for serving in the Amazon missions for 7 years). Cultural sensitivities should be taken into account if this can be done without doctrinal error. In this, we follow the marvelous example of, for example, Jesuit missionaries who, with the Church’s permission, developed vernacular liturgies for mission territories centuries ago.

He may be right in saying the attachment to Latin is a Northern Hemisphere thing, (although I’d challenge him to name a Southern Hemisphere territory where the Faith was not introduced from Europe and thus has European heritage). Maybe it’s an Anglo-Saxon thing - a cultural sensitivity of ours. I feel very strongly as a Catholic and an Englishman, that the Traditional Latin Mass was the central act of worship of our Faith that many English Catholics died for, in horrific circumstances, to hand down to us. Others had their property seized and were prevented from entering universities (my alma mater was closed to Catholics until 1960!) or the professions, because they kept the Faith. So perhaps that goes some way towards explaining the strong attachment to the TLM that exists in England. Maybe, with their virulent anti-clerical history, that is why many of the faithful in France feel strongly likewise also. As with the Amazon faithful, if these cultural sensibilities can be accomodated without doctrinal error, why not? And what doctrinal error could the Mass of St Pius V, gradually updated to 1962, possibly contain?

For myself, I don’t think it is fruitful to dwell too much on the imperfections and limitations of the New Mass - they are clear to see, and if we trust in God, and if we are right that the TLM is more pleasing to Him than the New Mass, His Will will in time be done. Cases of clear sacrilege - as with the supersoaker that started this thread - should of course be highlighted and combatted. What is important, keeping our powder dry, is to defend the TLM and ensure that it is available to the maximum possible number of faithful in the widest geographical coverage.
 
If you go to attend a benevolent and just and powerful king in his court, it is both courteous and wise to address him formally.

You bow to him. You never turn your back to him. You kneel if he’s bestowing an honour upon you.

What a proud generation we seem, intoxicated with our literary cleverness. Did anyone run the changes implemented post-Vatican II by the Lord Jesus Christ before implementing them? i.e. ask a living saint or two; those whom, when they ask of Him, He answers.

Just to be sure it was alright. Just to be polite.
2000 bishops, and not a saint among them?
 
2: JReducation’s point is well made (and much respect to him for serving in the Amazon missions for 7 years). Cultural sensitivities should be taken into account if this can be done without doctrinal error. In this, we follow the marvelous example of, for example, Jesuit missionaries who, with the Church’s permission, developed vernacular liturgies for mission territories centuries ago.

He may be right in saying the attachment to Latin is a Northern Hemisphere thing, (**although I’d challenge him to name a Southern Hemisphere territory where the Faith was not introduced from Europe and thus has European heritage). **

As with the Amazon faithful, if these cultural sensibilities can be accomodated without doctrinal error, why not? And what doctrinal error could the Mass of St Pius V, gradually updated to 1962, possibly contain?
I hope that I did not imply that the Catholic faith in the Southern Hemisphere did not come from Europe, because that is not what I meant at all. What I was trying to say is that the indigenous people associate Catholicism with Europe and the United States. That’s where most of the missionaries came from.

Unfortunately, many European and American Catholics, mostly lay people, have been complicit in the exploitation and oppression of the local people in the developing nations of the world. This creates a credibility issue.

If we watched WYD in Australia and the Papal visit to Africa, the inclusion of local culture in the liturgy has done a great deal to bring the indigenous people closer to Catholicism, because they see it as the Universal Truth, not the “truth” of the foreigner who goes to mass every Sunday and Monday thru Friday exploits their country and pushes immoral agendas on their society.

A good example was the Holy Father’s reference to condoms in Africa. This whole safe-sex concept is a very European and American concept. These are often the same people who call themselves Catholic. The teachings and actions of these people don’t add up in the mind of the local people. They are inconsistent with what the Catholic Church preaches. The conclusion at which they arrive is that European and American Catholicism is not credible, especially when these same folks coming from other nations manage to sell their agendas to the local politicians or should I say, buy off the local politicians.

In other words, Catholicism has to be consistent in liturgy and daily life. When inconsistencies happen and the first Catholics that indigenous people meet are from the USA or Europe they mistakenly label it the Church of Europe or the Church of the USA.

The Spanish, English, Dutch, Portugese and French did a great deal of harm to the people of the southern hemisphere, while the missionaries were trying to implant the faith. They took advantage of the divisions that existed in these nations to prosper. Yet these people called themselves Catholic or Christian.

There is still a certain reserve for anything in Catholicism that is too European and now too American. The people wonder if the missionaries are really telling the truth or if they are simply trying to absorb them into the culture of the Northern Hemisphere. There is a state of tension there.

Yes, one can make adaptations to the accidens in the liturgy without breaking the rules of Tradition and liturgical law. Keeping the local language is one of them. Introducing classical liturgical music and encouraging the local people to produce wonderful music of their own culture for liturgical use is another. In fact, the blend can be very beautiful, if it is done appropriately. We saw that at WYD in Sydney.
For myself, I don’t think it is fruitful to dwell too much on the imperfections and limitations of the New Mass - they are clear to see, and if we trust in God, and if we are right that the TLM is more pleasing to Him than the New Mass, His Will will in time be done. Cases of clear sacrilege - as with the supersoaker that started this thread - should of course be highlighted and combatted. What is important, keeping our powder dry, is to defend the TLM and ensure that it is available to the maximum possible number of faithful in the widest geographical coverage.
I don’t think that the EF pleases God more than the OF simply because both are the same sacrifice of Calvary.

The supersoaker was not a sacrilege in the theological sense. But it was the dummest idea I have ever seen. Along that line, I might add, that it detracted from the visual solemnity of the liturgical action with Holy Water. I hope it was an isolated event.

If I may suggest one more thing with all due respect, let’s refer to the two forms of the mass by their official and given labels. It’s not the TLM and the NO. They are the EF and the OF. At least, let’s use the same language and say the same thing that the Holy Father says about both forms of the liturgy. Our unity is demonstrated through many avenues. One of them is through unity with Peter. If Peter calls it the EF and OF and says that both are holy, we should also do the same. Communion with Peter is as essential to Catholic Tradition as many other elements of our faith.

Fraternally,

JR 🙂
 
To Spirithound: I don’t know, but if there were, I don’t think they carried the day. See the link in my signature, the one about Vat. II.

Actually, that could be part of the qualification for being a bishop: Can he cast out devils and heal the sick in Christ’s name? Has he converted many souls? Do the elements obey him*?

That’s the sort of thing that converts pagans. Proof that your religion is more powerful than theirs. Vade retro, Satanas!
  • A good priest in my younger days once told my father that he’d never pray for rain again (we live in a farming community). He did so once and it rained for months! I think the mistake he made was not specifying the amount and duration of the rain wanted.
Side note: Also, it’s smart to ask for something worthy and specific. “Lord, make me rich” is a bad prayer. “Lord, inspire me as to how I may earn a good living righteously, if it pleases you” would be better. Leave it up to him and ask for something that doesn’t require too many physical laws to be broken 😉
 
For myself, I don’t think it is fruitful to dwell too much on the imperfections and limitations of the New Mass - they are clear to see, and if we trust in God, and if we are right that the TLM is more pleasing to Him than the New Mass, His Will will in time be done.
Yes, you are right. But the logic corollary to this is that if what perceive to be His will is not done in time, then we were wrong about what the will of God was.
 
Isn’t there a biblical directive that we should dance in front of the Lord?
I think that many here are over-reacting to change.
In fact, some are downright hostile.
I don’t like change either but we have to accept it as a part of life.
Would any of the naysayers consider changing their faith as a result of these Masses?
 
Yes, you are right. But the logic corollary to this is that if what perceive to be His will is not done in time, then we were wrong about what the will of God was.
But when would we determine what was God’s time? God’s ways are not our ways. If it takes 100s of years and we all die before we see a change, does that mean that it wasn’t His will period, or that it wasn’t His will RIGHT THEN? That’s rather like saying abortion is God’s will because it’s been going on so long and to such high numbers and He hasn’t stopped it yet, and we KNOW that’s not true.
 
Isn’t there a biblical directive that we should dance in front of the Lord?
I think that many here are over-reacting to change.
In fact, some are downright hostile.
I don’t like change either but we have to accept it as a part of life.
Would any of the naysayers consider changing their faith as a result of these Masses?
Tracy,

You may be missing the point that there are hundreds of thousands whose faith is being formed with faults as a result of these types of Masses.

Change is only a part of mundane things, this I concede. Christ, however, His Church and the Faith is not mundane: Christ yesterday, today and forever. Building upon and developing the Faith–Its Doctrines and Dogmas (Faith and Morals)-- is a totally different animal than is ‘change’ in disciplines.

Using a super soaker at Mass, ignoring the Agnus Dei in order to hug the parishioner 3 pews away, singing secular songs have no other place than an auditorium, not the Sanctuary of Our Lord. These are the types of real life examples which prove that we have uncrowned Him.
 
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