Not feeling guilty for IVF

[setter]

I doubt it reading the post.

If this is the case, then take it upon yourself as a RCIA Catechumenate to be useful and offer only what the Church teaches.

1783 Conscience must be informed and moral judgment enlightened. A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. The education of conscience is indispensable for human beings who are subjected to negative influences and tempted by sin to prefer their own judgment and to reject authoritative teachings. (Catechism of the Catholic Church)

 

[jack_hawkins]

If this is the case, then take it upon yourself as a RCIA Catechumenate to be useful and offer only what the Church teaches.

1783 Conscience must be informed and moral judgment enlightened. A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. The education of conscience is indispensable for human beings who are subjected to negative influences and tempted by sin to prefer their own judgment and to reject authoritative teachings. (Catechism of the Catholic Church)

I take it on myself to address the issues of the OP - and ignore any unsolicited spiritual advice:thumbsup:

 

[MilesXpisti]

I take it on myself to address the issues of the OP - and ignore any unsolicited spiritual advice:thumbsup:

Unwarranted spiritual advice, eh?

hemberson:

Is it ok to be ok with going against the church when I feel guilty for not feeling guilty?

Seems to me like she’s asking for advice at the very least on the licitness of her actions and her feelings on the matter, otherwise why post in the moral theology section of the apologetics board

 

[StevenFrancis]

After many miscarriages, my husband and I went through IVF. We clearly understood the church’s teachings and for a while were against doing it, Over time, we can truly say we felt led to do it…we found a dr who was willing to work with our requests in regards to not destroying or freezing any embryos…we ended up fertilizing 2 and the result was one healthy baby. The problem is we dont feel guilty one bit as we feel at peace and feel God’s hand upon us the whole time. I know the church disagrees, but we felt led and felt after our prayers that theses doors were opening and to find the dr who worked with our desires. I look at our child and feel no regret and feel God’s hand was with us during this hard decision. Of course I ahve confessed for going against the church, but I dont feel guilty as I look at my child and know he was brought to us by the miracle of God working through science. Is it ok to be ok with going against the church when I feel guilty for not feeling guilty?

You just said you have already been to confession. If you did your confession with honest contrition, I don’t believe you’re supposed to run around feeling guilty. Your sins were forgiven you. If God wanted you running around feeling misarable for the rest of your life, he would not have left the sacrament of reconciliation. Though I disagree with IVF, it does look like you took several precautions, and approached it as morally as one can. But that’s a separate issue altogether. I’m sure there’s plenty of threads to explain why a person shouldn’t do it to begin with. And the arguments probably go on and on and on in circles. In this thread you’re saying that you did do it. You acknowledged it as sin with your Priest, performed penance, made an act of contrition. You now have to have faith that your Lord has forgiven you, and go on and live happily, without guilt.
The Peace of the Lord be with you always,

Steven

 

[MilesXpisti]

the specious argument is the one you have repeated above

PS I find “the marital embrace” a very odd Bowdlerism/euphemism
I embrace my wife in the street but I don’t get arrested for it and she has no risk of getting pregnant from it

I’m called specious for associating IVF and fornication, not in any causal manner, simply by their similarity of physicality (dealing with generation) and sinfulness (both grave matter), and yet my propriety at not using crude language for the marital act is called into question in the same breath. I’m being specious?

 

[Em_in_FL]

Okay guys…


First off… the child is always a gift from God… no matter how that baby was conceived, it’s a blessing…
The gift of the child, however, is not what is in question…

From the catechism

The gift of a child

2373
Sacred Scripture and the Church’s traditional practice see in large families a sign of God’s blessing and the parents’ generosity.163

2374
Couples who discover that they are sterile suffer greatly. “What will you give me,” asks Abraham of God, "for I continue childless?"164 And Rachel cries to her husband Jacob, "Give me children, or I shall die!"165

2375
Research aimed at reducing human sterility is to be encouraged, on condition that it is placed "at the service of the human person, of his inalienable rights, and his true and integral good according to the design and will of God."166

2376
**Techniques that entail the dissociation of husband and wife, by the intrusion of a person other than the couple (donation of sperm or ovum, surrogate uterus), are gravely immoral. These techniques (heterologous artificial insemination and fertilization) infringe the child’s right to be born of a father and mother known to him and bound to each other by marriage. They betray the spouses’ "right to become a father and a mother only through each other."167

2377
Techniques involving only the married couple (homologous artificial insemination and fertilization) are perhaps less reprehensible, yet remain morally unacceptable. They dissociate the sexual act from the procreative act. The act which brings the child into existence is no longer an act by which two persons give themselves to one another, but one that "entrusts the life and identity of the embryo into the power of doctors and biologists and establishes the domination of technology over the origin and destiny of the human person. Such a relationship of domination is in itself contrary to the dignity and equality that must be common to parents and children."168 "Under the moral aspect procreation is deprived of its proper perfection when it is not willed as the fruit of the conjugal act, that is to say, of the specific act of the spouses’ union. . . . Only respect for the link between the meanings of the conjugal act and respect for the unity of the human being make possible procreation in conformity with the dignity of the person."169**

2378
A child is not something owed to one, but is a gift. The “supreme gift of marriage” is a human person. A child may not be considered a piece of property, an idea to which an alleged “right to a child” would lead. In this area, only the child possesses genuine rights: the right “to be the fruit of the specific act of the conjugal love of his parents,” and "the right to be respected as a person from the moment of his conception."170

2379
The Gospel shows that physical sterility is not an absolute evil. Spouses who still suffer from infertility after exhausting legitimate medical procedures should unite themselves with the Lord’s Cross, the source of all spiritual fecundity. They can give expression to their generosity by adopting abandoned children or performing demanding services for others.

 

[StevenFrancis]

Firstly, your child is a gift to you, just like a woman who became pregnant through rape. Secondly, you have recieved forgiveness through your confession, doubting that is a bigger sin than the one you confessed. Thirdly, even though you sinned to get your child, your child is a gift from above. Your confession is no different than a person who had illicit sex and really enjoyed it but was compelled to confess for offending God while enjoying immensly the act of sex. You should be sorry for offending God, not sorry that a child resulted from the act of sinning against Him.

I should have read the entire thread. Looks like someone already said what I am saying, only much much better. Well put.

Peace to all,

Steven

 

[jack_hawkins]

a specious argument is “superficially plauisble but actually wrong”
an aside about Bowlderising is not an argument and not wrong, therefore it is not specious
there are plenty of terms for sexual intercourse that are neither crude nor obtuse

 

[setter]

Is it ok to be ok with going against the church when I feel guilty for not feeling guilty?

I take it on myself to address the issues of the OP - and ignore any unsolicited spiritual advice:thumbsup:

I repeat myself:

Originally Posted by jack hawkins
You brought a child into the world that is loved and cherished. I personally have no problem with that.

Originally Posted by **setter **
The OP is not interested in personal opinion but what the Church teaches.

Originally Posted by jack hawkins
I doubt it reading the post.

Originally Posted by** setter**
If this is the case, then take it upon yourself as a RCIA Catechumenate to be useful and offer only what the Church teaches.

**1783 **Conscience must be informed and moral judgment enlightened. A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. The education of conscience is indispensable for human beings who are subjected to negative influences and tempted by sin to prefer their own judgment and to reject authoritative teachings. (Catechism of the Catholic Church)

 

[litllulu]

a specious argument is “superficially plauisble but actually wrong”
an aside about Bowlderising is not an argument and not wrong, therefore it is not specious
there are plenty of terms for sexual intercourse that are neither crude nor obtuse

Could you speak in laymens terms please?

 

[fix]

The problem is we dont feel guilty one bit as we feel at peace and feel God’s hand upon us the whole time. I know the church disagrees, but we felt led and felt after our prayers that theses doors were opening and to find the dr who worked with our desires…

Church teaching is Christ teaching. They are not separate.

 

[st_lucy]

we ended up fertilizing 2 and the result was one healthy baby. ?

PS to the previous poster, no child was destroyed in the process

I am very confused about this. If two were fertilized but one child was born, what happened to the second baby? It would seem like one of the babies got forgotten. Please don’t forget him.

Also to the OP I know the pain of not being able to conceive. But we need to realized that God does has a plan for us. We are not to forget that and decide that since we want something we should go and get it even if we are think we are doing something good. Remember the ends never justify the means.

 

[MilesXpisti]

a specious argument is “superficially plauisble but actually wrong”
an aside about Bowlderising is not an argument and not wrong, therefore it is not specious
there are plenty of terms for sexual intercourse that are neither crude nor obtuse

specious, adj.:

1 obsolete : SHOWY
2 : having deceptive attraction or allure
3 : having a false look of truth or genuineness

I did not term your “aside” an argument, and it is specious in the fact that it attempts, through means of historical and linguistic minutiae in suggesting that my posts were bowdlerised (though how it applies, when bowdlerism is prudish censorship of literature, I am not sure when my aim was simply to effect understanding of the topic, and intercourse is an embrace that is rightly to be restricted to the marital relationship), in an albeit-humorous attempt to distract from the simple and immutable fact that IVF and fornication, while not sharing any causal relationship, are similar in matter (sexual generation) and licitness (grave matter).

 

[hemberson]

Its me…the OP of this. To clarify exactly what happened…we fertilized two eggs and 2 embryos developed. We “transferred” (in IVF terms) both embryos back to the uterus…we gave both embryos every chance…however, only one implanted…apparently the other one did not…but we did what we could and implanted it. Hope this clarifies for those who wonder what happened to the other baby.

 

[FCEGM]

After many miscarriages, my husband and I went through IVF. We clearly understood the church’s teachings and for a while were against doing it, Over time, we can truly say we felt led to do it…we found a dr who was willing to work with our requests in regards to not destroying or freezing any embryos…we ended up fertilizing 2 and the result was one healthy baby. The problem is we dont feel guilty one bit as we feel at peace and feel God’s hand upon us the whole time. I know the church disagrees, but we felt led and felt after our prayers that theses doors were opening and to find the dr who worked with our desires. I look at our child and feel no regret and feel God’s hand was with us during this hard decision. Of course I ahve confessed for going against the church, but I dont feel guilty as I look at my child and know he was brought to us by the miracle of God working through science. Is it ok to be ok with going against the church when I feel guilty for not feeling guilty?

There is a sin called presumption. One presumes on God’s mercy knowing that what one is doing or is about to do is sinful but engages in that sin because “it feels right” and “God will understand”. There is no remorse, then, just a presumption that forgiveness will be automatic because one has gone through the motions of confession. When one “goes against the church” one is going against Christ, but it’s convenient to our consciences to try to separate Christ from His Church.

Also, there seems to have been two children involved, not one.

 

[lizaanne]

Its me…the OP of this. To clarify exactly what happened…we fertilized two eggs and 2 embryos developed. We “transferred” (in IVF terms) both embryos back to the uterus…we gave both embryos every chance…however, only one implanted…apparently the other one did not…but we did what we could and implanted it. Hope this clarifies for those who wonder what happened to the other baby.

I had no question whatsoever what happened to the other baby. You rolled the dice, created two children in the “hope” that one or both would survive. One died in the process. That is a choice I would never want to make. I am sad for the death of that child who never asked to be created in a dish and was created into a situation that resulted in its death.

I worked for 8.5 years in one of the best fertility centers in the country - before I realized the morally unacceptable practices of the industry. I know the processes used and how the science works. Eggs are fertilized outside the body and transfered to the uterus on the gamble that at the very least one will survive.

So yes, as st lucy states above, I feel it is extremely important to understand that you are the mother to two children. One born, and one unborn.

Everyone wants “choices” and to be able to do whatever they want to do because THEY feel it’s what they are called to do. No one ever seems to consider the consequences of those “choices”.

~Liza

 

[jack_hawkins]

I had no question whatsoever what happened to the other baby. You rolled the dice, created two children in the “hope” that one or both would survive. One died in the process. That is a choice I would never want to make. I am sad for the death of that child who never asked to be created in a dish and was created into a situation that resulted in its death.

I worked for 8.5 years in one of the best fertility centers in the country - before I realized the morally unacceptable practices of the industry. I know the processes used and how the science works. Eggs are fertilized outside the body and transfered to the uterus on the gamble that at the very least one will survive.

So yes, as st lucy states above, I feel it is extremely important to understand that you are the mother to two children. One born, and one unborn.

Everyone wants “choices” and to be able to do whatever they want to do because THEY feel it’s what they are called to do. No one ever seems to consider the consequences of those “choices”.

~Liza

Since it is incredibly common for embryos not to implant, no one should make any comment about the fact that two embryos were implanted and only one proceeded to term. Life is a gamble.

 

[jack_hawkins]

I am very confused about this. If two were fertilized but one child was born, what happened to the second baby? It would seem like one of the babies got forgotten. Please don’t forget him.

Also to the OP I know the pain of not being able to conceive. But we need to realized that God does has a plan for us. We are not to forget that and decide that since we want something we should go and get it even if we are think we are doing something good. Remember the ends never justify the means.

Nothing got forgotten.
Many many embryos don’t implant, it’s a scientific fact.

 

[elvisman]

You brought a child into the world that is loved and cherished. I personally have no problem with that. That child is a gift from God, and why should you not feel grateful?
PS to the previous poster, no child was destroyed in the process

There you go, again, Jack!
Making statements that are in STARK contrast with the teachings of the Catholic Church.
I will again ask you the question that you have ignored in the other threads:
WHY are you an RCIA Catechumenate if you don‘t believe what the Church teaches?
If you go through the process and enter the Church only to battle her stance on these issues, you are a fraud.

---

 

[jack_hawkins]

specious, adj.:

1 obsolete : SHOWY
2 : having deceptive attraction or allure
3 : having a false look of truth or genuineness

I did not term your “aside” an argument, and it is specious in the fact that it attempts, through means of historical and linguistic minutiae in suggesting that my posts were bowdlerised (though how it applies, when bowdlerism is prudish censorship of literature, I am not sure when my aim was simply to effect understanding of the topic, and intercourse is an embrace that is rightly to be restricted to the marital relationship), in an albeit-humorous attempt to distract from the simple and immutable fact that IVF and fornication, while not sharing any causal relationship, are similar in matter (sexual generation) and licitness (grave matter).

Oh dear. and you’re interested in apologetics? your capacity for justifying with reason has not impressed me anyway
I believe that anyone who cannot simply type “sexual intercourse” instead of the incredibly obtuse “marital embrace” is qualified to give advice about sex and reproduction
if they can’t even use plain language about the subject, how can they tackle the subject properly?