Not feeling guilty for IVF

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Nothing got forgotten.
Many many embryos don’t implant, it’s a scientific fact.
Yes, I am will aware of this fact. I happen to be one of those people whose embryos don’t implant does that make my children any less of children? No! the fact remains that one child lived and another died. It is important to not forget the child that is not with us anymore.
 
Since it is incredibly common for embryos not to implant, no one should make any comment about the fact that two embryos were implanted and only one proceeded to term. Life is a gamble.
The Church is clear on this subject. IVF is not permissible - PERIOD. Why is it that this is even a discussion? If someone is living according to the teachings of the Church, then why is there any question?

Read the CCC! It clearly states (emphasis mine):

**
Techniques involving only the married couple (homologous artificial insemination and fertilization) are perhaps less reprehensible, yet remain morally unacceptable. They dissociate the sexual act from the procreative act. The act which brings the child into existence is no longer an act by which two persons give themselves to one another, but one that "entrusts the life and identity of the embryo into the power of doctors and biologists and establishes the domination of technology over the origin and destiny of the human person. Such a relationship of domination is in itself contrary to the dignity and equality that must be common to parents and children."168 "Under the moral aspect procreation is deprived of its proper perfection when it is not willed as the fruit of the conjugal act, that is to say, of the specific act of the spouses’ union. . . . Only respect for the link between the meanings of the conjugal act and respect for the unity of the human being make possible procreation in conformity with the dignity of the person."169**

This is all pretty simple - I don’t see how we have the room to do whatever we want in this situation. I was infertile for 11 years before totally giving up and coming to terms with God’s will that I will be childless. Because I realized that to go against His will is to live contrary to my Faith and my Church, and my God.

I think reading the recent email from Karl Keating regarding dissent within the Church will destroy it. This is a prime example of that behavior - those who ***feel ***they know better than the Church, and think they can just do whatever makes them ***feel ***good.

Sorry - I’m not buying it. Wrong is wrong.

~Liza
 
in fact why even have an apologetics section - why not just a link to the CCC???
 
Oh dear. and you’re interested in apologetics? your capacity for justifying with reason has not impressed me anyway
I believe that anyone who cannot simply type “sexual intercourse” instead of the incredibly obtuse “marital embrace” is qualified to give advice about sex and reproduction
if they can’t even use plain language about the subject, how can they tackle the subject properly?
“marital embrace” communicates sexual intercourse and a whole lot more than simple “sexual intercourse” which sounds more functional and behavioral than a facet of an ecompassing relationship expression.
 
“marital embrace” communicates sexual intercourse and a whole lot more than simple “sexual intercourse” which sounds more functional and behavioral than a facet of an ecompassing relationship expression.
there’s plenty of other terms - making love?
 
Many many embryos don’t implant, it’s a scientific fact.
That fertilized eggs do not implant, or that spontaneous abortions occur, is morally different from actively choosing to engage in an illicit act with knowledge such an act will have that outcome.

It is like folks who justify direct abortion by reasoning it happens often spontaneously in nature so it must be ok to have one.
 
Perfect contrition is not necessary for your confession to be valid. If you had sincere imperfect contrition, such as fear of the loss of hell, along with a sincere acknowledgment that you have sinned, that is sufficient for the sacrament to be valid.

I think you are in the same position, in some ways, as people who had a child out of wedlock with someone they love. You can’t deny the good that has resulted from your actions, and therefore, it is difficult to see that your actions were wrong.

Remember, though, that in His abundant goodness, God often draws good from our sins. But that doesn’t mean they weren’t sins. It also doesn’t mean that it was His will for you to do what you did. Rather, because he is so merciful and knows the sincere motives of your heart, He will often draw something beautiful, like an innocent child, from acts that are objectively evil.

It is not for anyone on this forum to say you’ve sinned. This is between you and God. All we can do is discuss the objective morality of an action, such as IVF. The subjective guilt is only for God to judge.

So my advice is to thank God for the wonderful child He has chosen to bless you (and the rest of the world) with. Give Him glory for His generosity and goodness. Realize that He is really the one who created your child and sustains him. Rely on Him for the help you will need over the years to fulfill the mission He has given you.

And at the same time be willing to go wherever the truth leads you. By entrusting this child to you God has already shown you that He will not condemn you for your actions if you seek Him and His Truth with a sincere heart.

Don’t fear that the possibility of acknowledging that you may have done something wrong in using IVF means you must feel guilty about having your child. You don’t. Your child is a true blessing from the Lord. Your job is now to raise him in the fullness of the Truth. And to do that you must come to accept the fullness of the Truth yourself, whatever it may be.

The Truth will set you free. Seeking the truth about our actions allows us to acknowledge all our sins, but in a way that leads us to love God all the more and praise Him for the bountiful love He showers upon us, despite all our sins.
This is, IMHO, the best answer thus far. Be thankful for the gift of your child. He is from the Father. If you feel guilty for not feeling guilty, perhaps that is the Spirit drawing you towards obedience and conviction. Even in our disobedience, our powerful and merciful Lord has amazing ways of calling us back to Himself. Maybe the gift of your child and the tug at your heart about not feeling guilty is God’s gentle way of softening you towards the teachings of the Church and bringing you to a place of thanksgiving, understanding, and closer communion with Him.

He has given you this child for a special purpose.
 
I’m not going to throw out a personal opinion/judgment on the original post as it is not a factor anyway. As far as “Period” goes, that is in the case of dogma, not general teaching or instruction. Regarding teachings that are not dogma, the Church has a process for proper dissention (much to the chagrin of those who know better) which is very much tied to the proper or improper formation of conscience. In short, variable factors will contrubute to the seriousness of the OP’s situation. However, one is not to “play it safe” by saying that one has completed the necessary process of conscientious dissent (which says that you are willing to stand alone before God apart from the Church on this issue), then without remorse (of which one would probably not feel anyway), go to confession “just in case”. Also, one who dissents for any reason is not to make that dissention public.

1.The matter must be sufficiently grave to warrant consideration of dissent.
2.Have you studied the Church’s teaching fully? Do you think you understand it?
3.Since conscience is a spiritual faculty, we need to be celebrating the Sacraments frequently to make certain that we stay “connected”.
4.Do not engage in the activity while you are discerning it. This will blind your judgment.
5.Pray. If you cannot settle down long enough to pray about something, that might be telling you something.
6.Time or timing is essential. Spiritual life is a series of ups and downs.
7.Consult with an authority who will challenge you. If you only consult with dissenters, you will not have the full picture.
8.Have you considered the big picture? Keep in mind that your own culture influences your views. Are we informed by the Gospel of Jesus Christ or by the gospel of the world?
9.Are there no possible alternatives to dissent?
10.After prayer and discernment, are you at peace?

(Now it is my personal opinion that after going through all of that, it is less likely that one would choose to dissent.)

Now, before I get harpooned on this, please see below. The first is a quote from Pope John Paul, II. The second is a link to the CCC and subsequent topics regarding conscience. Again, the Church doesn’t say we can pick and choose what we want to believe, so that’s not what I’m saying.

“If man is admonished by his conscience-even if an erroneous conscience, but one whose voice appears to him as unquestionably true-he must always listen to it. What is not permissible is that he culpably indulge in error without trying to reach the truth.”

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/index/c.htm

Conscience, 1776-802
authority and, 1903
conduct, choices, and, 1786-89, 1799
conversion and, 1435, 1453, 1797, 1848
definition and significance of, 1776, 1778, 1795
divine law and, 1706, 1776, 1778, 1786-87
erroneous judgment and, 1790-94, 1801
faith and, 160, 162, 1802
forgiveness of sins and, 1454, 1468, 1493, 1496
formation of, 1783-85, 1798, 1802
hearing the voice of, 1779, 1800
human dignity and moral, 1700, 1780, 2524
judgment of, 1777, 1800
mass media and the formation of, 2496
moral reparation and duty of, 2487
morality of human acts and, 1749, 1751, 1796 (see also Human act; Morality)
prudence and, 1806
refusal to bear arms for reasons of, 2311
responsibility for acts and, 1781
right to act in accordance with, 1786-89, 1799, 1907, 2106, 2242, 2256
right to act in freedom of, 1782
rights, duties, and conscience, 912
salvation and, 847
sin and offense against right, 1849, 1860, 1865
voice of, 33, 46, 1706, 1776, 1779, 1795, 2071
 
He has given you this child for a special purpose.
Yes, God does write straight with crooked lines for those who love the Lord. One cannot receive the fullness of God’s blessings when living unrepentent in serious sin.
 
I’m not going to throw out a personal opinion/judgment on the original post as it is not a factor anyway. As far as “Period” goes, that is in the case of dogma, not general teaching or instruction. Regarding teachings that are not dogma, the Church has a process for proper dissention (much to the chagrin of those who know better) which is very much tied to the proper or improper formation of conscience. In short, variable factors will contrubute to the seriousness of the OP’s situation. However, one is not to “play it safe” by saying that one has completed the necessary process of conscientious dissent (which says that you are willing to stand alone before God apart from the Church on this issue), then without remorse (of which one would probably not feel anyway), go to confession “just in case”. Also, one who dissents for any reason is not to make that dissention public.
Could you provide some links that support your position here?

Of course we are compelled not to act against our conscience, but we are compelled to form it properly in the first place.
 
INSTRUCTION ON RESPECT FOR HUMAN LIFE IN ITS ORIGIN
AND ON THE DIGNITY OF PROCREATION
REPLIES TO CERTAIN QUESTIONS OF THE DAY


The Church’s Magisterium does not intervene on the basis of a particular competence in the area of the experimental sciences; but having taken account of the data of research and technology, it intends to put forward, by virtue of its evangelical mission and apostolic duty, the moral teaching corresponding to the dignity of the person and to his or her integral vocation. It intends to do so by expounding the criteria of moral judgment as regards the applications of scientific research and technology, especially in relation to human life and its beginnings…

…no one can, in any circumstance, claim for himself the right to destroy directly an innocent human being. (20) Human procreation requires on the part of the spouses responsible collaboration with the fruitful love of God; (21) the gift of human life must be actualized in marriage through the specific and exclusive acts of husband and wife, in accordance with the laws inscribed in their persons and in their union.(22) …
 
OP…sorry you asked?

My suggestions:
  1. Go to confession and talk to a priest about this.
  2. Love your kid.
  3. Don’t do it again.
 
Could you provide some links that support your position here?

Of course we are compelled not to act against our conscience, but we are compelled to form it properly in the first place.
links provided in the original post except for the position that dogma is non-negotiable.

And I believe that your additional comment is in exact agreement with the spirit of my post
 
links provided in the original post except for the position that dogma is non-negotiable.

And I believe that your additional comment is in exact agreement with the spirit of my post
You linked to the CCC, right? Where does it see we may dissent from teachings that are not formal Dogmas?

Perhaps I am missing your point, but from the list you gave it seems to say one may legitimately dissent from what is true?
 
OP…sorry you asked?

My suggestions:
  1. Go to confession and talk to a priest about this.
  2. Love your kid.
  3. Don’t do it again.
I think this is sound advise. I would also say pray to our Lady for help with obedience.
👍
 
You linked to the CCC, right? Where does it see we may dissent from teachings that are not formal Dogmas?

Perhaps I am missing your point, but from the list you gave it seems to say one may legitimately dissent from what is true?
Just for the record, and I’m sorry my point has been missed, my intention is to convey that the Church has teachings. Some (ie Trinity, Sacraments, Profession of Faith, etc.) are not up for debate to the practical Catholic in communion with the Holy See.

In general, if one even considers dissenting, a lot of prayer and discernment, and investigationg, etc) needs to go into that.

Most important to my thinking in the post is this : If we are going to go against the Church that is between God and us, not God, us, and the rest of us. The Church helps to distinguish right and wrong - the original post was after the fact (except for whether or not to feel guilty) and very specific to the matter involved. Obviously, the OP dissented from Church teaching. Whether that was a sin or the extent of the seriousness is not my call.

see 1786 -1802 also
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a6.htm#1790
 
Just for the record, and I’m sorry my point has been missed, my intention is to convey that the Church has teachings. Some (ie Trinity, Sacraments, Profession of Faith, etc.) are not up for debate to the practical Catholic in communion with the Holy See.

In general, if one even considers dissenting, a lot of prayer and discernment, and investigationg, etc) needs to go into that.

Most important to my thinking in the post is this : If we are going to go against the Church that is between God and us, not God, us, and the rest of us. The Church helps to distinguish right and wrong - the original post was after the fact (except for whether or not to feel guilty) and very specific to the matter involved. Obviously, the OP dissented from Church teaching. Whether that was a sin or the extent of the seriousness is not my call.

see 1786 -1802 also
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a6.htm#1790
I have not spoken directly to the OP case and will not. I was only interested in the notion one may ever dissent. I find no basis for that assertion.

A subjective conscience never justify’s us.

Perhaps you were referring to this:

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19900524_theologian-vocation_en.html
 
Matt Collins gave you some very good advice, so I’m just going to ditto him.

Also, if you and your husband ever plan to try for more children, I would recommend contacting the Pope Paul VI Institute. They have helped many couples achieve pregnancy using morally licit means. 👍
 
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