Not forgiving yourself.. The unforgivable sin?

[pammy523]

Zoe, I think you have hit the nail on the head. I have always been the one to fix things for other people and you’re absolutely right, I can’t fix this and it is gnawing at me. Making things better for other people is something that I am very good at. I have read your response several times and am amazed at how much truth is in what you said. You will never know just how much I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut. It has gotten to the heart of what I’ve been feeling but could not quite put my finger on. When I read the part about not being able to fix it or undo it, it was as though a light had come on and I could finally see what was right in front of me. Even though what I did was terrible, it doesn’t mean that I’m a terrible person. I sit here with tears streaming down my face but with a sense of peace at the same time. I’m sure this is going to still be a work in progress but at least it’s given me a better understanding of why I’ve had such a hard time with this. God bless you for taking the time to give me your thoughts and opinion on this. I am eternally grateful.

 

[Salonika]

pammy:

I have read your response several times and am amazed at how much truth is in what you said. You will never know just how much I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut. It has gotten to the heart of what I’ve been feeling but could not quite put my finger on. When I read the part about not being able to fix it or undo it, it was as though a light had come on and I could finally see what was right in front of me.

This also resonates with me and I think if we persist in thinking we can take the situation back to what it was before we did what we did/what someone else did to us, we will be caught up in an unwinable situation.

Maybe a lot of the pain is that the situation has changed and can’t ever be the same again. But if we don’t try and and move forward, rebuild a relationship if that is posible or end it as cleanly and fairly as we can, then we punish others as well as ourselves.

pammy:

Even though what I did was terrible, it doesn’t mean that I’m a terrible person…

This is something we need to know and believe on two levels - intellectual and actual.

I know and agree with it intellectually and can apply it to other people. I can understand why others do some of the lousy things they do. I don’t condone what they do, but I understand.

But when it is me, I have a lot more trouble.

pammy:

I sit here with tears streaming down my face but with a sense of peace at the same time. I’m sure this is going to still be a work in progress but at least it’s given me a better understanding of why I’ve had such a hard time with this. God bless you (Zoe) for taking the time to give me your thoughts and opinion on this. I am eternally grateful.

Yes, there are times when people give us the great gift of insight and of healing.

In this case please remember you have contributed to this - if you hadn’t started this thread we wouldn’t have got Zoe’s comments.

 

[Zoe_Brain]

Thanks so much for letting me know I was able to help. That in itself is one of the small acts of kindness I was talking about, that make the world a better place.

God Bless, Zoe

 

[distracted]

. Until one reaches a point at which they are able to see the ways in which God has managed to turn one’s evil for good, they may remain unable to forgive their own wrongdoing.
.

this is a very good point. Wen i think about it, i doubt i would be as close to Jesus as i am if i hadn’t been as “stupid” (etc) as i was in the past…

(not that i am as close to Jesus as i could be/ should be… but at least i am much closer to Him because of those mistakes… because, for one thing, other human beings cannot accept a lot of our mistakes… anymore than we can… and so, we end up more/less alone with God… which is always a good thing… no matter how it comes about… )

 

[distracted]

The whole concept of forgiving yourself has always seemed a little too “pop psych” for me. Only God can forgive sin and He does that most generously. We only have to accept that forgiveness with the humility required of a mere creature who has been given the undeserved favor of having a real relationship with our Creator and Redeemer and Sanctifier.

The unforgiveable sin is the final rejection of that forgiveness. It’s source is an arrogant pride that we can be like God and don’t need Him. If that sounds familiar, it should. Pride was the source of the very first sin when Adam and Eve foolishly chose to disobey God because they wanted to be like God. They believed, at least for a moment, the first and most destructive lie of all time, “You shall be like God.”

pop psych or not… it is not good to go through life not forgiving oneself… or, as you put it… not accepting forgiveness… I don’t see any difference…

because, as OP states… not forgiving oneslef is one of the ways in which a person “blashphemes” or defies… the HS… although God knows when a person is trying to forigive oneself… accept forgiveness… & i know he doesn’t throw someone into Hell… No, wait… He doesn’t allow a person to throw himself inot Hell just because he isn’t perfect… in that or any other regard…

and so, it’s more accurate to say that the true blashphemy of the HS is to whole-heartedly reject forgiveness… (reject Christ)… lacking any repentence whatsoever…

i feel it needs to be said, though, that ***the Catholic Church teaches that NO sin is unforgable… ***

for yrs i was tormented by this idea that i could easily (and may have) commit(ed) this sin…:whacky::hypno:uch: I was tormented for no reason… all because i didn’t understand… wasn’t catechized…

which shows the necessity for an infallible Church… We humans are always getting things wrong… and God, of course, knew this was the case… . so he established such a Church… and keeps it infallible through His own divine power (the Real Presence… )…

 

[distracted]

…i think that not forgiving yourself is sad, but i believe that the unforgivable sin is the NOT asking God’s forgiveness. Rejecting the Holy Ghost call to contrition and penance. I could be wrong…

i don’t see the difference…

if you don’t forgive yourself, you are not going to ask for or receive God’s forgiveness… at least not in its entirety…

but again, God knows our hearts and if we desire full forgiveness… well, it may take time because with humans, things always take, (sometimes a lot of) time…

some pepole are damaged by parents who, for example, are never satisfied with grades or their behavior, &/or even the way their children look and/or what have you and so the child grows up feeling s/he is not worthy… or loved no matter what… children’s images of God are formed first, and for the most part, for good, by parents…
'Hopefully this level of self-loathing is a rare thing… but in any case… it can often be very difficult to forgive oneself… for a host of reasons…

but if one stays clear of sin… and receives the sacraments… etc… perserveres… one will make it to Heaven… (thro Purg, probably)…For one thing, God will reveal to the person that he feels this way (unforgiven)… I’ve had it happen in confession that the priest will say i am forgiven, but i won’t FEEL very forgiven because, say, the priest didn’t seem too friendly or didn’t seem to understand me or whatever… I take his seeming coldness for God’s opinion/assessment of me… but sometimes i have dealt with this by just accepting, despite feelings, the forgiveness… and …when i do that, i begin to FEEL very much better… even forgiven…

we humans care too much waht other humans think. they are not God… and priests can sometimes be further from the Christian ideal than non-priests. …

 

[Scar]

i don’t see the difference…

if you don’t forgive yourself, you are not going to ask for or receive God’s forgiveness… at least not in its entirety…

but again, God knows our hearts and if we desire full forgiveness… well, it may take time because with humans, things always take, (sometimes a lot of) time…

some pepole are damaged by parents who, for example, are never satisfied with grades or their behavior, &/or even the way their children look and/or what have you and so the child grows up feeling s/he is not worthy… or loved no matter what… children’s images of God are formed first, and for the most part, for good, by parents…
'Hopefully this level of self-loathing is a rare thing… but in any case… it can often be very difficult to forgive oneself… for a host of reasons…

but if one stays clear of sin… and receives the sacraments… etc… perserveres… one will make it to Heaven… (thro Purg, probably)…For one thing, God will reveal to the person that he feels this way (unforgiven)… I’ve had it happen in confession that the priest will say i am forgiven, but i won’t FEEL very forgiven because, say, the priest didn’t seem too friendly or didn’t seem to understand me or whatever… I take his seeming coldness for God’s opinion/assessment of me… but sometimes i have dealt with this by just accepting, despite feelings, the forgiveness… and …when i do that, i begin to FEEL very much better… even forgiven…

we humans care too much waht other humans think. they are not God… and priests can sometimes be further from the Christian ideal than non-priests. …

…remember, God forgives sins, not you/us. You may have a scrupulous issue, but weather or not i forgive my self does not have anything to do with God forgiving me. The arrogance of in effect saying to God that I don’t need your forgiveness is the unpardonable sin, and only unpardonable because you have refused to ask. So belly up to the bar (confessional booth), tell your sins, be sorry for your sins, firmly resolve to do better, listen to the words of the priest, he will grant you absolution, God will forgive you… then you can go down the church steps and knock your self out… but God has forgive you… it’s not your call, to forgive, only to ask…at least that’s my take on it, i guess i could be wrong… probably am…Peace to you:thumbsup:

 

[Trader]

pop psych or not… it is not good to go through life not forgiving oneself… or, as you put it… not accepting forgiveness… I don’t see any difference…

The difference may be subtle, but it is real. In every sacrament it is God who acts to give grace, not us.

Protestants often speak of “taking communion”, Catholics receive communion. The rubrics do not allow self-communication for laymen to emphasize this.

Many Protestants say that baptism is a sign that they have accepted Christ; it is more proper to say it is a sign that Christ has accepted us.

When sins are forgiven, it is God who forgives. That forgiveness is not dependent on whether or not we feel forgiven. Catholics have the great gift a sacrament that provides an outward sign that forgiveness has taken place.

 

[Sea_Bass]

I think a big issue of “not forgiving yourself” has to do with regret. At least that’s the way it works for me. I still kind of hold on to the sin, even after I’m forgiven, to help me prevent it from happening again. I’ve recently have gone through an issue that I haven’t “forgiven” myself of, but I do realize that God has forgiven me. So, while I still feel incredibly guilty, I know that I am forgiven from God. I take the guilt as a positive, because it reminds me of what I did and what sorts of behavior led to the sin, which I am trying my best to change.

You can’t change the past, but you can most certainly learn from the past and past actions. My advice to you is to tell yourself that God has forgiven you, and chalk up the sin as experience. By believing the fact that you are forgiven through the Church and through Jesus, you have already reconciled with yourself as well, even if you feel guilty still. Once I came to this conclusion, I felt immediately better about myself. Even though the bad feelings and guiltiness linger around for a while, use them to power your future actions to prevent the act, if the opportunity presents itself.

I hope this makes sense somewhat and helps…

 

[Daniel_Boucher]

I was bogged down by this thing about “uttering blasphemy against the Holy Spirit” for a while. The Catechism covers it and mentions what it means as not repenting and converting from grave sin. I was also taught that it means dying in the state of mortal sin and that the only unforgiven sin is the unconfessed sin. These all are true.

Venial sins are not the same as mortal sins. Mortal sins take us out of the state of grace. If we are not in the state of grace when we die, we will not be forgiven. However, the Catechism states that there are means which sins are forgiven that we do not know of that only God knows of.

A good reading I found on the internet is by Raymond Lloyd Richmond at this link:
chastitysf.com/q_unforgivable.htm. I found it helpful in overcoming my fear of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. I just make sure to go to regular Confession now and focus on not sinning mortal sins.

 

[Trader]

I think a big issue of “not forgiving yourself” has to do with regret. At least that’s the way it works for me. I still kind of hold on to the sin, even after I’m forgiven, to help me prevent it from happening again. I’ve recently have gone through an issue that I haven’t “forgiven” myself of, but I do realize that God has forgiven me. So, while I still feel incredibly guilty, I know that I am forgiven from God. I take the guilt as a positive, because it reminds me of what I did and what sorts of behavior led to the sin, which I am trying my best to change.

You can’t change the past, but you can most certainly learn from the past and past actions. My advice to you is to tell yourself that God has forgiven you, and chalk up the sin as experience. By believing the fact that you are forgiven through the Church and through Jesus, you have already reconciled with yourself as well, even if you feel guilty still. Once I came to this conclusion, I felt immediately better about myself. Even though the bad feelings and guiltiness linger around for a while, use them to power your future actions to prevent the act, if the opportunity presents itself.

I hope this makes sense somewhat and helps…

I agree with you and still get to make fun of “pop psych” twice in one thread. A lot of people seem to think that guilt is always bad, and that guilt is the sole property of Catholic and Jewish mothers.

It is not always bad. Guilt serves as a warning not to repeat the behavior that causes it, just like pain warns you to take your hand off the hot stove. A person who cannot feel pain is in real danger. Pain can be very useful, but no one wants to be in pain all the time.

A person who does not experience guilt is a psychopath. If you feel excessive guilt for something that was not your fault, you may need professional help from a therapist. If you feel guilt for something that was your fault, you should use that to avoid repeating that behavior.

 

[Daniel_Boucher]

Sometimes any guilt that you feel is due to the fact that you must suffer temporal punishment for your sin after it is forgiven. It can happen that one confuses guilt from temporal punishment with guilt from having not yet converted. You may feel guilt when reconciling with God and the Church after Penance. This is normal. It is like a spiritual “time out,” or being sent to jail; suffering in this life for one’s sins rather than the next.

 

[Sea_Bass]

If you feel excessive guilt for something that was not your fault, you may need professional help from a therapist. If you feel guilt for something that was your fault, you should use that to avoid repeating that behavior.

I agree with this. I don’t worry about feeling guilty about an action for a little while after it occurs. I worry more about the sinful actions that I do on a regular basis that don’t make me feel guilty. I also agree that the feeling of guilt is also an effect of the sin.

But I tend to think, at least in folks that try to live as Christ did, that guilt is a positive. It makes you think about things that are wrong or missing about your life. For example, recently I made a huge mistake, and have felt really guilty for it. It makes me regret what I did, but it also makes me sit down and think about why it happened. What led me to it? And the proceeding actions and complete ignorance of warning flags, made me feel even more guilty. But while I felt guilty, I also felt the need to change, basically, myself. I know the guilt feeling won’t last, but while it does, I’m using it as fuel to help me get a routine down that involves God in my life much more. So even the sinful acts were really bad, I feel like they were a wake-up call to myself, even if I’m going to have to change lifestyles and probably lose friends over it. Just my $.02.

 

[Podo2005]

It seems to me that not forgiving oneself is the unforgivable sin…(or i should say one aspect of it) because

you are preferring your own judgment over the perfectly just judgement of God, saying, in effect that He is not big enough to forgive… believing the lie that your sin is bigger than God’s love…

and therefore, when you die and must stand in his Holy Presence, you will not be able to stand… His Light and Love will be too much for you… & you may throw yourself into Hell…

or as Jesus said, you will not “be strong enough”…

Yep, this is known as Pride, the only sin where you wont bother asking for forgiveness(because you are proud) and therefore cant possibly recieve forgiveness. Of course its always possible to have a change of heart ( and I pray that people go and ask for forgiveness as soon as possible instead of worrying about nonsense that their sin is bigger than God’s forgiveness)

 

[Podo2005]

Yep, this is known as Pride, the only sin where you wont bother asking for forgiveness(because you are proud) and therefore cant possibly recieve forgiveness. Of course its always possible to have a change of heart ( and I pray that people go and ask for forgiveness as soon as possible instead of worrying about nonsense that their sin is bigger than God’s forgiveness)

And I’m not saying we won’t feel guilty for our sins, but regardless of how we feel/suffer we still need to come to the Lord and repent.

 

[distracted]

I think a big issue of “not forgiving yourself” has to do with regret. At least that’s the way it works for me. I still kind of hold on to the sin, even after I’m forgiven, to help me prevent it from happening again.

I think i already said this… but anyway… I think we all go through this… feeling guilty after sacramental confession (i think that’s what you’re referring to?)… but i really believe one of the reasons we feel this guilt is not so much that we feel we are not forgiven… but, i mean, its not just that… I think we are instinctively trying to “repair” the damage… That’s why i hate it when people say or imply guilt is a bad thing… One very good reason for it is, as you say… to prevent you doing it again. God designed us quite well… But anyway… this (if only subconscious?) desire to repair the damage… is called Purgatory… I think that’s why a lot of people don’t want to acknowledge it… might sound too Catholic…

You can’t change the past, but you can most certainly learn from the past and past actions. My advice to you is to tell yourself that God has forgiven you, and chalk up the sin as experience. By believing the fact that you are forgiven through the Church and through Jesus, you have already reconciled with yourself as well, even if you feel guilty still. Once I came to this conclusion, I felt immediately better about myself.…

another thing is that you can feel forgiven by God… or at least feel somewhat forgiven… but instinctively (again)… we realize that our fellow Christians in the body of Christ … well, we thihnk on at some level: “They would reject me if they knew about this…” and that just adds to the guilt…

So much for caring about what others think… (another sin)…

:coffeeread::juggle::heaven:

 

[distracted]

Yep, this is known as Pride, the only sin where you wont bother asking for forgiveness(because you are proud) and therefore cant possibly recieve forgiveness. Of course its always possible to have a change of heart ( and I pray that people go and ask for forgiveness as soon as possible instead of worrying about nonsense that their sin is bigger than God’s forgiveness)

pride can definitely be a reason for not accepting forgiveness. but i know that is not the problem with me. I do have pride, i admit, but not in this particular area…

I just feel unforgiven, somewhat… (sometimes)… about this one sin in particular that was so long ago, you wouldn’t think it would bother me…and if i told you waht it was you would probably say it wasn’t even a sin… and it isn’t one of the mortal ones… i don’t think but anyway…Its just that It has adversely affected “things” to this day, which is why i think i feel guilty still… yet when only when i think about it…?])…

anyway… I’ll come back from the rabbit trail…:hypno:

i think the reason i feel so bad about my sins sometimes (thank God i don’t feel this way all the time… ) is because of simple low self-esteem… I was given the msg early in life that i could do nothing right… Jesus has and still is in the process of disabusing me of this message… but it is sometimes 1 step forward, 2 steps back…

anywya… Jesus said to do whatever you have to to get to Heaven… even cut off your foot and gouge out your eyes … Yikes! So it really doesn’t matter WHY you don’t forgive yourself … except that it is good to understand yourself… but even if you dont’ understand, you just have to get the unforgiveness out of your life…

with me it is just low self-esteeem… and also caring too much what people think… but i am definitely getting away from all that… When you see that others have as bad or worse sins as you do… well, makes it easier to forgive yourself… ,

 

[distracted]

Sometimes any guilt that you feel is due to the fact that you must suffer temporal punishment for your sin after it is forgiven.

you have said in one sentence what i tried to say in about 10 (Post 36)…

It can happen that one confuses guilt from temporal punishment with guilt from having not yet converted. You may feel guilt when reconciling with God and the Church after Penance. This is normal. It is like a spiritual “time out,” or being sent to jail; suffering in this life for one’s sins rather than the next.

very well said… If i had read this before posting #36, i would have only had to say “Go to Post #32”

 

[Daniel_Boucher]

Yes, reconciling with the Church is important after Confession. It’s not as if everyone knows your sins exactly, but because the Church is Christ’s Mystical Body, reconciliation occurs with the priest in the Confessional serving as Christ, and with the people of the Church after the Sacrament.

I believe that it is better that people don’t know your sins unless you have to make amends to them, otherwise you might be in danger of corrupting them. I say this because it is better not to “kiss and tell.”

 

[distracted]

Yes, reconciling with the Church is important after Confession. It’s not as if everyone knows your sins exactly, but because the Church is Christ’s Mystical Body, reconciliation occurs with the priest in the Confessional serving as Christ, and with the people of the Church after the Sacrament.

I believe that it is better that people don’t know your sins unless you have to make amends to them, otherwise you might be in danger of corrupting them. I say this because it is better not to “kiss and tell.”

on the other hand, sometimes we humans hide our sins/sinfulness from others because of pride…

Why do so easily sin before God… and yet are so hesitant to look bad… or imperfect or whatever… before humans???

one answer is that we instinctively know thye are not going to think much of us if they know 1/2 our sins… whereas we know that God is big enough to handle it … loves us unconditionally. …

but another reason we don’t tell people our sins is pride…

…caring too much waht others think…

This is a serious sin… leads to idolatry…no, actually it IS idolatry… focusing on humans and not God… something we are all guilty of…

"cursed is the man who trusts in human beings… " -Psalms.-.

but then there is another reason… We instinctively realize that no one will understand the weaknesses / “needs” that made us do whatever… we have psychological “needs” … NO, what SEEMS like needs… (may be just wants)… but in any case, we don’t always understand them… and neither do others… but people can be very judgmental regardless…

even though they have more than likely committed the same sins…