Not glad for the Fall

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"O happy fault,
O necessary sin of Adam,
which gained for us so great a Redeemer!

This verse blows my mind. It sounds like the biggest case of sour grapes in the history of the universe. It is fine and dandy to be grateful to the Redeemer for saving us, (since we now need saving), but I would never, ever be glad the Fall happened for the sake of getting a great Redeemer, or for any other reason. The Fall was a tragic, unfortunate mistake that should never have happened. It appears, however, that the writer of this verse would not reverse the Fall if they could. I understand that in some parts of the world, the Church refers to Adam and Eve as Saints. Preposterous! Why is it not then Saint Hitler? Absurd for sure, but less so than Saints Adam and Eve, as Hitler was responsible for far fewer deaths and far less suffering and misery than were/are Adam and Eve. What makes them saints? Being the first people? That was done for them. Procreating? Then all parents are saints, and we know that’s not true! For committing the Fall? I hope not. Or is it because it is believed they are in Heaven now? I hope not even more. If there is any justice in this universe, Adam and Eve will be absolutely the* last *to enter Heaven! This verse implies something along the lines of, “I didn’t really want the Fall to happen, but since it did, I’m glad it happened!" That, to me, is totally insane! Why should Adam and Eve be given any reverence whatsoever?
 
I’m no theologian, nor particularly well versed in this aspect of the faith, but I think The Fall is viewed in this way because it was inevitable. In a sense, it was a necessary part of God’s plan of creation.

Let’s say Adam and Eve did not fall. What then? Do you think sin would not have entered this world? The Fall was just as necessary as free will. In a sense, a necessary by-product of free will is sin, just as much as it is love. As long as humans can have a choice, sooner or later in creation the choice will be against God.

If you assume that the Fall was unnecessary, a “tragic mistake”, then you would have to presume that God would have to force us to love Him…all of us throughout Creation, throughout the history of the world. And forced love is no love at all.

Thoughts?
 
If you can obtain a copy of the Liturgy of the Hours, the Office of Readings, please read the “ancient homily on Holy Saturday”…it is the second (non-biblical) reading for that season.

I’m sorry…I have single volume book from the Paulist Sisters, and in my book, it is on Page 1675. I have no other way to reference it.

LOTF is Liturgy of the Church, so what is included is true. This reading will explain Adam’s "redemption.

As to the noted phrase, the “fault” of Adam and Eve brought to earth our Savior Jesus Christ, and the remission of all our sins. It is, for that single reason, a “happy” fault, not an oxymoron.

Hope this helps.
 
Okay-I am no expert by any means but this is how it was explained to me back when I was a protestant (fallen-away catholic in a protestant faith) which I’m sure all Christians can relate with. Okay-first of all, when God created angels-who are spirits only and more powerful than humans, something like one-third rebelled against God (Lucifer, later Satan and his demons eg bad angels). There was no second chance for them being that there was no way that God can redeem them via a sacrifice since they are spiritual beings only. Fast forward to Adam and Eve-when God created them, he formed them body and spirit. God, being all-knowing already knew that man was going to fall, and His sacrifice in the person of Jesus was necessary for man’s salvation yet out of His great love for us, He went ahead of creation of man. One theory I’ve read was that when God created man, Satan was so full of rage and jealousy that he rebelled (just one theory but unproven). After Adam and Eve sinned, God did say in the bible that the snake’s head will be crushed by a woman (Blessed Mary) which already foretold the future Messiah’s coming and sacrifice. So-although God knew beforehand at the time of creation how everything was going to unfold, He still went ahead with it-and wanted to give men free will to choose. He may have possibly created man a physical being to make a way for the future atonement, meaning shedding of His blood to redeem mankind. So----and from my understanding, unlike Hitler, Adam and Eve did repent and offer sacrifices-so again, it goes back to free will and what is in one’s heart. Hope this helps out a little with the mystery 🙂
 
A general response:
If the Fall was inevitable, then Adam and Eve had no choice. And certainly, if the Fall was inevitable in God’s eyes, and he went ahead with creation anyway, then God wanted Adam and Eve to sin, and that is against His Nature. Pre-Fall love was not forced. There was plenty reason enough to love God for His own sake, rather than because He is saving us from a terrible fate. It is wrong to equate the necessity of the Fall with that of free will, as God created and intended free will but not the Fall. The Fall was not a necessity because God’s will was that it should* NOT *happen (according to His command), not that He commanded it and then hoped His creatures would disobey. It is absurd to claim that God gave His creatures a command, and then wanted them to, or hoped they would, disobey. I believe, and I certainly hope, that human existence was intended by God to be Paradise from the beginning. Hitler, incidentally, may have repented too, we do not know.
 
Ok - here are my thoughts.

Firstly - If we all decide the fall was inevitable - then we all are Mormons.

I don’t think the fall was inevitable at all, but rather chosen fully by Adam and Eve - It was NOT provoked by God.

However, just because we did fall does not mean it has to be sad for all eternity. When Christ came he freed us from sin, thus making the fall ‘happy’

It doesn’t justify the fall - nor does it mean we were pre-destined to experience it.

But, God did know that it was certain to happen.

Also, since He wanted to bring us back, He created the plan to bring His Son into the world.

Thus, original sin was not necessary in the sense that we had to sin.
But, original sin was necessary for Jesus to redeem us.

We can’t imagine a world so dramatically different then it is now - one where sin never entered it.

If someone else sinned later and Adam resisted temptation, then that sin would be considered “original sin” and thus that sin would have been necessary to bring to the world a redeemer. No sin, no need for a redeemer - a condition we can’t imagine.

Perhaps a redeemed world = a world that was always without sin in some respects? It’s just the world’s lack of faith that still brings us down?
 
Krakatoa said:
A general response:
If the Fall was inevitable, then Adam and Eve had no choice.
And certainly, if the Fall was inevitable in God’s eyes, and he went ahead with creation anyway, then God wanted Adam and Eve to sin, and that is against His Nature.
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A false deduction God wanted gave Adam and Eve the power to choose how to live - like you and everyone else.
Pre-Fall love was not forced. There was plenty reason enough to love God for His own sake, rather than because He is saving us from a terrible fate. It is wrong to equate the necessity of the Fall with that of free will, as God created and intended free will but not the Fall. The Fall was not a necessity because God’s will was that it should* NOT *happen (according to His command), not that He commanded it and then hoped His creatures would disobey. It is absurd to claim that God gave His creatures a command, and then wanted them to, or hoped they would, disobey. I believe, and I certainly hope, that human existence was intended by God to be Paradise from the beginning. Hitler, incidentally, may have repented too, we do not know.
Click to expand...
The Fall was not a necessity but it is unrealistic to think no one would ever choose to be selfish…
 
I guess in Gods’ eyes creating was still worth it, knowing full well the fall would occur.This is the Catechisms’ most relevant teaching on the matter:

412 But why did God not prevent the first man from sinning? St. Leo the Great responds, "Christ’s inexpressible grace gave us blessings better than those the demon’s envy had taken away."307 And St. Thomas Aquinas wrote, "There is nothing to prevent human nature’s being raised up to something greater, even after sin; God permits evil in order to draw forth some greater good. Thus St. Paul says, ‘Where sin increased, grace abounded all the more’; and the Exsultet sings, ‘O happy fault,. . . which gained for us so great a Redeemer!’"308

Perhaps, with the realities of good and evil becoming known to us in this world by experience, and with ourselves having the opportunity to play a role in our choosing good over evil, we can become moldable, by the Potter, into the beings He desires us to be.
 
Krakatoa said:
If the Fall was inevitable, then Adam and Eve had no choice. And certainly, if the Fall was inevitable in God’s eyes, and he went ahead with creation anyway, then God wanted Adam and Eve to sin, and that is against His Nature.
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“Inevitable” was a poor choice of wording on my part. What I was trying to express was the likelihood that the original sin of pride would eventually plague the world, and send us down the path we are on today. And I’m not suggesting God intended there to be a fall; that’s much different from the fact that the fall was a likely outcome of God’s creation of free will. You seem to think the fall would be highly improbable…but what did Adam and Eve have to compare to Paradise? Remember, we call it paradise because we now have something to compare it to in a post-fall world. Good is most good when compared to bad. Without darkness, light doesn’t seem as bright as it should be. Adam and Eve only knew good without bad, only light without darkness…nothing to compare it to in order to realize how wonderful they had it. It is a retrospective realization of paradise. I’m not suggesting it was worth giving up that easily…but the temptation of Satan was tantalizing to Eve (and subsequently Adam) probably because Eve did not fully understand the absolute goodness of the world she would be giving up. She did not understand, nor could she contemplate, death. It was foreign to her. So don’t be too quick to think how easy it should’ve been for our first parents to refuse the offerings of the father of lies. This is why I say the fall was a highly likely event in creation. No doubt God foresaw this, but this again is much different than thinking He intended it.
 
Krakatoa said:
"O happy fault,
O necessary sin of Adam,
which gained for us so great a Redeemer!

This verse blows my mind. It sounds like the biggest case of sour grapes in the history of the universe. … That, to me, is totally insane! Why should Adam and Eve be given any reverence whatsoever?
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You are reading it with an analytical mindset. It is an ancient and highly spiritual prayer from what is called the Exsultet or the Easter Proclamation, chanted at the beginning of the Easter Vigil which is the holiest night of the year for the Universal Church. The prayer is so important that it is set in the format of a Eucharistic prayer, similar to the Eucharistic prayer after consecration. It is a prayer of thanksgiving to God for giving us so great a gift as his only son, sacrificed for us who were once slaves to sin. It’s a cry of joy that God sent his son to ransom us, that’s all. Christains of the first 1000 years of the Church were not as analytical as we are. They let the Holy Spirit guide them and it is just a cry of joy.

This past Easter at the vigil, our huge Church was packed, the lights were dim, you could only see candles lit. Good Friday had been so somber and sad. We have perpetual adoration and Jesus had been in repose for the whole weekend and no Mass on Saturday. The was an amazing amount of anticipation and spiritual energy present during the entry. Our cantor, one of our deacons, has an amazing voice, and this chanted prayer brought took my breath away and brought tears to my eyes.

Think St. John of the Cross or any of the other great contemplatives. Don’t try to read it in light of dogma or doctrine.

Close your eyes and listen here. This is not my Church but it is similar to the experience. It’s difficult for me to listen to this without getting a little emotional.

-Tim-
 
Also, the Fall is not a necessity for Christ coming into the world. Although theologians are split on this, but it is Blessed Pope John Paul II who is the latest to teach that Christ would have partaken with our humanity even though Adam and Eve did not sin. It means God would still have been made man and dwelt amongst us in Eden. Such was God’s plan. This is in the Theology of the Body.
 
tonyrey said:
The Fall was not a necessity but it is unrealistic to think no one would ever choose to be selfish…
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I should add that there may well be other worlds in which persons have never chosen to be selfish. It is logically possible but there is no evidence in its favour.
 
Thanks to all who responded. This all brings up a question I had struggled with for years.
Did God wish the Fall to happen or not? On the one hand, the answer is, of course not, since that would mean God wished man to sin, and that goes against His nature. But on the other hand, if man being saved after being fallen and lost brings God greater glory than man never having fallen, how could such be without the Fall? I have recently realized the difference between 1) God creating man knowing and wishing he will fall beforehand, and 2) God creating man, not wishing for him to fall, but knowing only, beforehand. In other words, for a long time, I equated God knowing beforehand about the Fall and going ahead with creation anyway, with God wishing the Fall to happen. They’re not the same. Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut, folks.
 
Krakatoa said:
Thanks to all who responded. This all brings up a question I had struggled with for years.
Did God wish the Fall to happen or not? On the one hand, the answer is, of course not, since that would mean God wished man to sin, and that goes against His nature. But on the other hand, if man being saved after being fallen and lost brings God greater glory than man never having fallen, how could such be without the Fall? I have recently realized the difference between 1) God creating man knowing and wishing he will fall beforehand, and 2) God creating man, not wishing for him to fall, but knowing only, beforehand. In other words, for a long time, I equated God knowing beforehand about the Fall and going ahead with creation anyway, with God wishing the Fall to happen. They’re not the same. Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut, folks.
Click to expand...
I’m glad you explained that issue because it is an objection which is often made against the coherence of the doctrine of the Redemption and the Felix Culpa in particular. 🙂
 
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