Not holding mental images during prayer

  • Thread starter Thread starter TempleofTheSoul
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
T

TempleofTheSoul

Guest
In reading about the Jesus Prayer from different sources, it kept being stressed that one is not to hold images in ones mind during the time you are praying. The reason being that it could lead to delusions. It was said that one is to direct ones attention to towards ones heart and keep it there.

Can someone explain more in detail the reasons why images are bad during prayer? This is something that I have never encountered before.

God bless
 
Its not that images are bad, its that images, even good ones, distract away from the direct focus on God alone. Images are mediators, and so the perfect contemplation is to abandon images and seek God directly. Similar views are held in the western writing “The Cloud of Unknowing”.
 
Nice. I’m doing it all wrong. But with ADD, what can you do, mind drifts 😦
 
You’re not doing it wrong. No prayer to God with a sincere heart is wrong. That just can’t be. Plus, when reciting the rosary aren’t we suppose to hold images in mind? That’s what I was always taught and why there are Mysteries, but I too suffer with ADD. I went to confession at Easter time and it was one of the best experiences of my life. I want to go to Confession with this priest all the time. He said to me, with conviction: “God loves you the way you are, with all your faults, and don’t ever forget that.” Its stuck in my mind and brings me out of dark sad places, and makes me happy. So, if we’re not praying correctly God loves it that we’re praying and reaching for Him.
 
Formosus said:
Its not that images are bad, its that images, even good ones, distract away from the direct focus on God alone. Images are mediators, and so the perfect contemplation is to abandon images and seek God directly. Similar views are held in the western writing “The Cloud of Unknowing”.
Click to expand...
This would seem the same as the admonition to not have statues or pictures in general. There could be a better reason for not imagining during prayer but direct focus seems a little nebulous to me. I would avoid formulas and methods which are somewhat popular, not that this is exactly a formula or method, but a beginner told not to imagine would, to them, be a formula or method as they have not progressed beyond sense prayer.

The contemplative “night of the senses” leads one, by God’s prompting, to the deeper contemplation in our soul and leaves our imagination behind. This is where one should not revert back to imaginative images because God is leading one out of it to deeper prayer. God is working in our soul and this work is His alone, we merely work to not thwart this action in us.
 
TempleofTheSoul said:
In reading about the Jesus Prayer from different sources, it kept being stressed that one is not to hold images in ones mind during the time you are praying. The reason being that it could lead to delusions. It was said that one is to direct ones attention to towards ones heart and keep it there.

Can someone explain more in detail the reasons why images are bad during prayer? This is something that I have never encountered before.

God bless
Click to expand...
I can only expound on this a little bit, I don’t know if this will help or make things worse.

I think it is worthwhile to recall what Frank Sheed touched upon in (I think) his book Theology and Sanity.

In one section he makes some great points about the difference between what is conceivable and what is imaginable (or inconceivable and unimaginable). I don’t want to misquote him but as I recall he said something on the order of the problem being that if one has difficulty in conceiving something, the imagination hi-jacks the thinking process.

Another way of looking at it is the imagination is like a toy, it is an endless game we play, it is attractive to us and we resort to it often.

God is conceivable in an abstract sort of way, or at least the concept of God is. God is not really knowable (there is an unbridgable chasm between we mortal creatures and the Divine) and God is not imaginable by us.

God is beyond anything you and I are able to understand with our little pea brains. So we are tempted to try and imagine God, since we can’t, we are projecting. This is in essence what visualizations are. It is like a work of fiction, perhaps more like historical fiction, which mixes a lot of true facts with a lot of filler we can never really know. Like watching a cinema, we have to suspend our disbelief, which we are happy to do.

So in a sense (as I have come to believe), when we project or visualize it may be as if we are worshiping a God of our own imagination, a God we have created. This may also be a danger in another important way, since the Great Deceiver is always at work among us. It could be that when we let our imaginations get between us and God that Satan does his best work.

If the soul is vigilant and withdraws from all distraction and abandons its own will, then the spirit of God invades it and it can conceive because it is free to do so.
Abba Cronios
 
Wow! This is so different from Roman Catholic thought, ( I think) It has given me a few things to think about. thanks.
 
coco2 said:
Wow! This is so different from Roman Catholic thought, ( I think) It has given me a few things to think about. thanks.
Click to expand...
Actually it’s precisely what contemplative prayer is in the Roman Catholic tradition. St. John of the Cross says precisely the same things in “Ascent of Mt. Carmel”, for example, where he explicitly says that for deep prayer we must renounce all images and sensations. 🙂

That being said we shouldn’t take such admonitions too far or else we slip into Iconoclasm; there is a place for images, both internal and external. What is being discussed primarily is trying to visualize God, and being distracted by our own imagination when trying to enter into the deepest levels of prayer

Peace and God bless!
 
I want to understand the Jesus Prayer more and grow spiritually with it
 
We cannot understand God in His essence, as He is in Himself, but we seemingly can put the analogy and metaphor that the Church has deemed truthful into concepts that define the Nature and Attributes of God.

Also:
In order to form a more systematic idea of God, and as far as possible, to unfold the implications of the truth, God is All-Perfect, this infinite Perfection is viewed, successively, under various aspects, each of which is treated as a separate perfection and characteristic inherent to the Divine Substance, or Essence. A certain group of these, of paramount import, is called the Divine Attributes .
Click to expand...
God can influence our imagination during prayer to convey truths to us but also He can lead us to prayer of a deeper nature, in our soul, where our mind and it’s concepts don’t reach. Contemplation
Code: 
 -spiritual quiet when the Divine action is still too weak to prevent distractions: in a word, when the imagination still retains a certain liberty;
-full union when its strength is so great that the soul is fully occupied with the Divine object, whilst, on the other hand, the senses continue to act (under these conditions, by making a greater or less effort, one can cease from prayer);
-ecstasy when communications with the external world are severed or nearly so (in this event one can no longer make voluntary movement nor energy from the state at will).
Click to expand...
If we have our own ideas about God and reject the Church’s definitions, we do then worship a god of our own making.
 
ConstantineTG said:
Nice. I’m doing it all wrong. But with ADD, what can you do, mind drifts 😦
Click to expand...
Your not “doing it wrong.” That type of prayer is very advanced contemplation. It’s hard to do and I won’t pretend to say that I have been successful at it…

The images aren’t bad, they have their place in prayer, but as Ghosty said, this is the highest sorts of contemplative prayer.
 
ConstantineTG said:
I want to understand the Jesus Prayer more and grow spiritually with it
Click to expand...
I suggest you look into the Philokalia. There are some great editions available in English that were translated by Bishop KALLISTOS (Ware). The entire Philokalia is not yet translated as I understand it, and the translation by Bishop KALLISTOS comes in volumes. Also, I once read a great book called The Art of Prayer, but I can’t remember the Author at the moment.

In regards to the question about mental images while reciting the Efche (Jesus Prayer), we are admonished to not allow ourselves to even have thoughts (images or otherwise) whilie praying the Efche. The Fathers teach us that these images and thoughts come from the devils. But we are not to become troubled by these thoughts/images either. We are simply to let them come, and then let them go. We are not to engage these thoughts or think badly of ourselves because we have them. The image or the thought is simply the beginning stage of having our focus taken off the prayer. We should not try to do spiritual battle with the evil one when these things occur. Rather, we are to simply and calmly bring our mind back to the words of the prayer and the images and thoughts will eventually subside as the Master will send His Holy Angels to fight them off for us! If you have images or thoughts, simply continue with the Efche and these things will pass. Also, I would encourage Latin and Eastern Catholics, and the Orthodox alike to begin praying the Efche. This most holy of all prayers will melt away our ego and allow us to reach unity, because what can cause humility and spiritual enlightenment more than learning to pray in our hearts constantly, thereby recieving the vision of the light of Tabor (or as I think Catholics call it, The Beatific Vision). I would also encourage anyone wanting to learn more about the Jesus Prayer to read the Biography of St. Seraphim of Sarov by Archimandrite Lazarus Moore. It is a great read, and an inspiring spiritual help.

The sinner,
Josh
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner!
Most Holy Mother of God, save us!
 
TempleofTheSoul said:
In reading about the Jesus Prayer from different sources, it kept being stressed that one is not to hold images in ones mind during the time you are praying. The reason being that it could lead to delusions. It was said that one is to direct ones attention to towards ones heart and keep it there.

Can someone explain more in detail the reasons why images are bad during prayer? This is something that I have never encountered before.

God bless
Click to expand...
Sounds like personal preference to me. I’ve never heard that there is a right or wrong way to pray. Aside from “pray like this…Our Father…”

~Liza
 
Very interesting discussion! Here’s an area of genuine differences between East and West. In the West, God is certainly knowable, though not imaginable, and Meditation is not image-less.

People always start with discursive or affective prayer where the mind focuses on some truth of the faith (or person) which over time develops into loving attention or the prayer of simple regard, which is imageless and, as the name suggests, loving attentiveness to God’s presence. In fact, both Sts. Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross warn us not to try and force the mind into such a state (no image at all) especially when it still brings a lot of benefit to the soul and is naturally engaged in without violence. Distractions at this stage means wandering away from the truth or person that is the object of the prayer.

This remains the case until God himself gives indication that he intends to give the soul contemplative prayer (or has already began to), at which stage the direction Ghosty gave earlier applies- To drop all types of discursive and affective meditation that requires violent effort and to simply pray with the prayer of simple regard or loving attention, which is passive enough to allow God to move freely without our “noise” as St Teresa calls efforts to think and talk when God himself is granting the prayer to the soul.

Very interesting to read through all the comments.
 
OrthodoxJosh said:
I suggest you look into the Philokalia. There are some great editions available in English that were translated by Bishop KALLISTOS (Ware). The entire Philokalia is not yet translated as I understand it, and the translation by Bishop KALLISTOS comes in volumes. Also, I once read a great book called The Art of Prayer, but I can’t remember the Author at the moment.

In regards to the question about mental images while reciting the Efche (Jesus Prayer), we are admonished to not allow ourselves to even have thoughts (images or otherwise) whilie praying the Efche. The Fathers teach us that these images and thoughts come from the devils. But we are not to become troubled by these thoughts/images either. We are simply to let them come, and then let them go. We are not to engage these thoughts or think badly of ourselves because we have them. The image or the thought is simply the beginning stage of having our focus taken off the prayer. We should not try to do spiritual battle with the evil one when these things occur. Rather, we are to simply and calmly bring our mind back to the words of the prayer and the images and thoughts will eventually subside as the Master will send His Holy Angels to fight them off for us! If you have images or thoughts, simply continue with the Efche and these things will pass. Also, I would encourage Latin and Eastern Catholics, and the Orthodox alike to begin praying the Efche. This most holy of all prayers will melt away our ego and allow us to reach unity, because what can cause humility and spiritual enlightenment more than learning to pray in our hearts constantly, thereby recieving the vision of the light of Tabor (or as I think Catholics call it, The Beatific Vision). I would also encourage anyone wanting to learn more about the Jesus Prayer to read the Biography of St. Seraphim of Sarov by Archimandrite Lazarus Moore. It is a great read, and an inspiring spiritual help.

The sinner,
Josh
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner!
Most Holy Mother of God, save us!
Click to expand...
I’m getting a copy of “Way of a Pilgrim” and hopefully I get something from that.
 
That’s a great one too, Constantine. Try to make sure that the copy you get also includes “The Pilgrim Continues His Way”. Both are very helpful, and very inspiring!

Please pray for me!

The sinner,
Josh
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner!
Most Holy Mother of God save us!
 
I’m getting an e-book version and Kobo only has one title. I’ll do research on it on the weekend if its a good translation, but I don’t think it has the second part you are talking about.
 
Thank you all for your responses. 🙂 I didn´t expect so many varied replies.

One poster mentioned that this state of not holding mental images in prayer can be found in the book ¨The Cloud of Unknowing¨ and others pointed out that in higher forms of prayer this aspect can be found as well.

I didn´t know that in Western Christianity this concept of prayer with no mental images also existed…so I thank you all for having enlightened me. When it comes to my own personal prayer life…I need to reflect on the life of Our Lord through mental images, if not then I feel far from the Lord. I hope what I am saying makes sense… If one day I should be gifted with a higher form of prayer where I do not need mental images in order to feel closer to the Lord, then thanks be to God.

Thank you all again.

God bless
 
TempleofTheSoul said:
Thank you all for your responses. 🙂 I didn´t expect so many varied replies.

One poster mentioned that this state of not holding mental images in prayer can be found in the book ¨The Cloud of Unknowing¨ and others pointed out that in higher forms of prayer this aspect can be found as well.

I didn´t know that in Western Christianity this concept of prayer with no mental images also existed…so I thank you all for having enlightened me. When it comes to my own personal prayer life…I need to reflect on the life of Our Lord through mental images, if not then I feel far from the Lord. I hope what I am saying makes sense… If one day I should be gifted with a higher form of prayer where I do not need mental images in order to feel closer to the Lord, then thanks be to God.

Thank you all again.

God bless
Click to expand...
Hello, friend,

Good for you! But beware…One day the Lord will take away both the images and the feelings, plus the sense of his presence that are so vital to your interior life right now. The Saints tell us that it will be painful, but not to worry- that this is actually very good news!

If you co-operate with the Lord, he will take away (for your own good) all the things you lean on now interiorly- Images, discursive reasoning, nice feelings, the sense of his presence etc- and replace them with himself! That is: true, direct, immediate and experential knowledge of him (contemplation), abundant increase in Divine love or charity, great progress in sanctity and rapid growth of the virtues, and unimaginable spiritual consolations that will make you despise all the wonderful feelings of love and closeness that you experience at this point.

May we get there as soon as possible- 👍

Peace!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top